not all christians are boring stereotypical bible bashers (1 Viewer)

[Steph9]

So if I find my wife by complete accident (eg bump into her randomly in the street), does this mean any love between us becomes meaningless?

Not necessarily. You did not bumb into any old woman who was willing to share her life with you. Put it this way, everything that occurs, happens because there is a purpose for it. You have obviously met this person whom you are attracted to, and in response to this attraction, you've married her. The love you have between you *does* have meaning. Since you were both attracted to eachother, and are now married, you will now both continue to share that pleasure together.

Why don't I just divorce my wife from the above example?

Well techniquely you guys are married for life to share your earthly pleasure together. The only way out of marriage is if a spouse dies, if one has an affair or if one abandons the other.

Just because something has an end does not make it meaningless.

Sorry I don't get this point, please explain in further detail.

EDIT: So you believe that God was created by accident. This makes him, and any acts he commits meaningless.

I don't believe God was created at all. God was always there ever since the beginning of time, hence Revelation 22: 12 - 14 says: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

people can be athiest or have a billion different views about how the world was created. the universal thing they have in common is that most people want to liveand be happy. you know religion and god is not the only "point" in life. and people wouldn't cut down every tree etc because then future generations would (our children and children's children) will have a poorer quality of life.

Yeah there are a million different views about how the world was created, I guess no body really cares about that but just want to "live and be happy". The cutting down trees was just an example I used in our scenario if the purpose of trees were meaningless. But obviously if we cut down every tree, then yes we'd have a poorer quality of live, global warming would inclease due to ozone layer depletion. Therefore trees have a purpose because they alleviate or prevent all that. The Bible says that we are created in the image of God. That means that it is our responsibility to take care of God's creation, whether they be trees, or birds, or animals or fish.

I've heard this again and again from religious people: "but if there is no god...life is meaningless, and that sucks. and we should all be depressed!"

I didn't say that not having a god was depressing. In fact people tend to look towards other things-money, possessions, relationships, status, family, friends, work, etc to provide meaning in their lives.

So deep down inside, you believe in a higher being because it gives your life a meaning it wouldn't have had otherwise. The idea that there is nothing after we die is one that you find depressing. Heaven is a comforting thought for you.

But heaven actually does exist. It's not visable to our earthly eyes, yet it's definetely there. If you want proof, read John's Gospel. Jesus came from heaven and opened the way for us sinners so that we may have fellowship with God when we die.

Do you think all atheists are unhappy and depressed? I'm sure most of them aren't, so it's clearly possible to find happiness and meaning in this existence without belief in a deity. I think they have the right idea; to make the most of the life we have instead of focusing on winning brownie points from god in case there is a next.

Not all atheists are unhappy and depressed, just like not all Christians are happy and joyful. And people do find happiness in other things, a part from believing in some deity. I've mentioned above; people look towards *created things*-money, possessions, status, etc to find happiness.

If the world was just purely an accident, then all life is meaningless

What a simplistic view of the world... we carve out our own meaning in our lives.

Read Proverbs 21: 1: "The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases."

Why don't we all commit suicide instead, because we live in a world that *accidently* formed itself into complexities and order?

What stupid logic... It is I whom value my life so much, I believe it's all I've got and it will be over in the blink of an eye. You believe when you die you continue on, so hows bout you kill yourself? Oh I know - The easy cop out 'but that's a sin!', alot of things are sins you dumbarse.

Matthew 4: 7: "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."

Again, stupid logic. It is actually the people whom believe in a diety with a grand plan etc whom probably don't care much about global warming/ozone etc... they believe that the diety has this all planned out and alot of christians actually believe the end will come within their lifetime.

Meanwhile as an Atheist I can take the value for human/other life that is programmed into us (some sort of evolutionary process probably) to come to the conclusion that I want to do what I can to build a sustainable future for the next generations...

We make our own meaning. It's like building a snowman, it's fun to do at the time - even tho it is ultimately a pointless act.

The world may not necessarily end within *this* lifetime, but in the meantime enjoy everything while you can; for Romans 1: 18 - 20 says: "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For in since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so men are without excuse."

Ecclesiastes 11: 9 says: "Be happy, young man, while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and whatever your eyes see, but know that for all these things God will bring you to judgement."

Building a snowman is not a pointless act-otherwise why bother? It's just fun to make, and the process of making a snowman is what brings us pleasure.

so you think everything must have been done by something or created something?

that is invalid logic. because it can just go on forever. who made the earth, god did, but somebody must have made god, who made god, some bigger god but something must have made that bigger god, who made that bigger god, some puppy dog, who made the puppy dog etc etc etc

a lot of christians always say "well SOMEBODY must have made the universe". well if somebody did infact make that universe, under that logic something else made that SOMEBODY since something must always have been in existence prior to make that something. hope that makes sense.

The origin of God is spelt out in Revelations 1 : 8:' "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almightly." '

and about bible bashers, they should read this passage in the bible.

Matthew 10:23 says Christians should leave where they are persecuted and go elsewhere. They should find people who will listen and leave the unbelievers alone.

One day when Jesus comes again, all you unbelievers will realise that I have spoken the truth in God's name, because in Philippians 2 : 9 - 11: "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

again, this discussion will get nowhere. there is no point to this. people believe different things. just as i am not gonna be convinced of christianity, i am not gonna convince to the christians here that god does not exist.

And you wonder what sin is. Sin is not the mear breaking of rules or divine law. It is the rejection of God, as Romans 3 : 10 -12 says: "There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away."

I pray that some day, you unbelievers will let Jesus into your hearts, otherwise when he does come again, you will all be forced to accept the truth that God does exist and he intervened in our history-Jesus died on that cross when we should have paid the price for our every sin. But Jesus died so that we might live, and he rose again, so that we believers have access to eternal life and have that life to the full. (John 10 : 10)

 

[ladyknight]

A few weeks ago I was walking down a street and a guy brandishing a Bible started yelling down in my face the reasons why I should convert and basically that my entire life, and everything I'd ever done, thought or felt, meant I was going straight to Hell. Extremely scary, and quite a turnoff.

That said, my closest friend is wholeheartedly a Christian, totally passionate, and a very funky person to be around.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

But heaven actually does exist. It's not visable to our earthly eyes, yet it's definetely there. If you want proof, read John's Gospel. Jesus came from heaven and opened the way for us sinners so that we may have fellowship with God when we die.

No dear, that's no proof... that's just a book that says some stuff and according to christianity it is intended to be a work of fact - Proves nothing of importance to the discussion.

What a simplistic view of the world... we carve out our own meaning in our lives.

Read Proverbs 21: 1: "The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases."

How quickly you have become a "bible bashing christian". As for your answer to what I said, what does it mean? It doesn't seem to retort anything I said.

Not all atheists are unhappy and depressed, just like not all Christians are happy and joyful. And people do find happiness in other things, a part from believing in some deity. I've mentioned above; people look towards *created things*-money, possessions, status, etc to find happiness.

Can you explain exactly how believing in Jesus has put some extra meaning into your life that I don't have? I am aware that now perhaps you may want to live as you believe jesus did (as many humanists would), however I don't really see any extra meaning in your life? Perhaps you believe the meaning of life now is to believe in jesus and pray to him? I think I'd find that reguardless of any new meaning you claim to have gained from these revelations you will live a life very similar to my own.

I've mentioned above; people look towards *created things*-money, possessions, status, etc to find happiness.

Interesting claim. Since you have jesus now, do you not need money, possessions, status, family, friends etc.... all these things that you claim atheists use to find happiness - Somehow I can't imagine you being happy without them.

The Bible says that we are created in the image of God. That means that it is our responsibility to take care of God's creation, whether they be trees, or birds, or animals or fish.

Oh yes... of course that's what it means *cough*

The world may not necessarily end within *this* lifetime, but in the meantime enjoy everything while you can; for Romans 1: 18 - 20 says: "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For in since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so men are without excuse."

Ecclesiastes 11: 9 says: "Be happy, young man, while you are young, and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart and whatever your eyes see, but know that for all these things God will bring you to judgement."

I see you conveniently choose to follow these parts of the bible and not significant other sections. Personally I think it's because underneath all this shlap you are scared of your death and not in any way confident of this afterlife.

Building a snowman is not a pointless act-otherwise why bother? It's just fun to make, and the process of making a snowman is what brings us pleasure.

There you go! You just created your own meaning to something you do in your life! I'm glad you may be finally starting to get it.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

But why disturb this for people? Having now seen it I would find it harsh to push atheism when it gives many people in greif hope and solace even if faith is totally illogical.

Does this really give them hope and solace? I'm unsure, I don't know whether faith really puts people at ease with the world or if it's just a quick and easy buffer they throw up (much like a child that is a victim of sexual assault), however the grief still affects them just as bad as if they had not put up this buffer.

That said faith creates a number of problems. It can creep into policy making, which is meant to be logical, and reasoning that is meant to be logical.

Not just policy making... For example there are people whom don't undergo traditional medical treatment in the hope that some bullshit cure will work - and these people lose alot of their money and they die after being scammed.

Anyway I think the main problem with having illogical, fantastic beliefs is that reality has a way of catching up with you. Using the above example, people put their faith in some bullshit and they end up dead. If you decide to reconcile your grief by placing in a god/afterlife, then the true reconciliation that should occur does not happen and just continues to bubble under the surface.

Why is atheism justified? First of all, a plurality of religions exist that contradict each other; logically, they cannot all be correct. Moreover, the difference between a religion and a cult seems to reside in the number of adherents. Secondly, historical evidence situates religions in contexts that pour the divine element down the sink. There are also contradictions in scripture which different religions consider to be authoritative -- some internal, others against well justified scientific and mathematical conclusions.

Most importantly, being an atheist means you get to sleep in on Sunday. In addition, one is freed from the dogma that human excellence is evil, or that people (including youself) are intrinsically evil. One gets to enjoy life without guilt, which is a better way to live since life is short. Drink it up. Faith is also detrimental to human life -- you wouldn't try to grow crops in the desert with faith they would grow, or drive through a red at a busy intersection every day with faith you will not be in an accident.

http://theplanetogo.blogspot.com/2005/03/my-easter-message.html

 

[erawamai]

Personally I range from atheistic to just a little agnostic.

Religion is a historical construction built on cultural customs and practices that have evolved to best suit the needs of the society in which it evolved from. It gives people hope, solace and explanation in times of desperate sadness.

Death and tragedy is the only time that it is guaranteed that an agnostic or atheistic person will reexamine their beliefs in faith and life itself. It is tough to sit at a funeral and accept that the person has died and his or her life is final and over. While it is perfectly fine for me to sit there and reaffirm my belief that there is no god or heaven and that his or her spirit continues on within me, this is simply not enough for some people. I will not know how I will react when a very close loved one passes away, whether through some kind of inbuilt mechanism my conscience will activate the faith trigger to protect my conscience from the harshness and finality of death and perhaps unfairness of the particular death.

At the moment as a relatively healthy young person (As far as I know *touches wood*) death is far away from my thought processes. But this could change as I get older. As aforementioned faith gives purpose and hope to people and it is just a bit sadistic to slap a person who may depend on this faith to ward away grim reality with logical reasoning. As such religion does play a role in society that should be accepted however its role in society should be limited. Society would be, I feel, a lesser place without faith irrespective of its illogical nature.

That said religion causes so many social problems in particularwhen cultures clash (Clash of the civilisaitions Huntington etc). The great majority of people simply cannot understand that religion is a product of society and within that religion are social and cultural practices and traditions that are a part of society. Religion, and in particular Christianity, is very hard to simply extract or remove from western society. With the advent of cynicism, often exploitative organized religion and godless economic theory (consumerism) it is possible that faith may be eroded. Who knows if this is a good thing? Will the introduction of fundamentalist free market economics end intolerance? Probably not since education of the liberal and secular nature is commodified. Those at the bottom wont be exposed to it. Currently society is just not ready to accept harsh truths. It is probably a good thing that I do not know everything that goes on at the Pentagon; I wouldn’t need it on my conscience. I’m not paid to have it on my conscience.

People like me and like some others in this thread are young and passionate people who were born in the ‘me first’ consumerist generation. We examine every purchase with logic and reason as we do with most choices in our lives. As a result we examine the religions or belief systems that are on offer. I’ve seen them all. I’ve read about them all. I don’t think any of the major religions are perfect. For others this is just not the way to go about it. These people live happy lives within their microcosm of faith. They don’t want to know why their beliefs are illogical because that is the basis of their life. And why should we knock people who don’t hurt anyone and who are happy little members of our world?

However the issue with religion is when peoplemake faith their life. The bible may a great book if read metaphorically and not literally or interpreted to actually embody the grace of god. Of course today it often isn’t. As a result we get illogical religion pushed by people with narrow perspectives trying to make public policy backed by religion. The reason why we maintain a often superficial boundary between church and state is because those clever people back in the day realized that religion is illogical and society should not be run based on vague notions of faith and illogical reasoning that happens to exist just so people don’t have to suffer.

Like almost everything a balance is the best position. A society ruled simply by logic without emotion or faith would be a society much too harsh for a large chunck of society, many of whom the political systenm doesn't offer much hope to. On the other hand a society than is ruled by religion would be awful, but not to the people who have faith within that system, just those people who don't.

---------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_civilizations

 

[Not-That-Bright]

They don’t want to know why their beliefs are illogical because that is the basis of their life. And why should be knock people who don’t hurt anyone and who are happy little members of our world?

Because they do hurt people.
Deists usually have beliefs that do not really affect the rest of society, but most believers have beliefs that do affect us in the real world. There is a large portion of america which believes that the end will come within their life time... Just think of the ramifications of this - there are a large number of people in the world that don't have to worry about the future of the planet because it's the last days and god will be here soon.

 

[erawamai]

Because they do hurt people.
Deists usually have beliefs that do not really affect the rest of society, but most believers have beliefs that do affect us in the real world. There is a large portion of america which believes that the end will come within their life time... Just think of the ramifications of this - there are a large number of people in the world that don't have to worry about the future of the planet because it's the last days and god will be here soon.

Of course. This is the consequence of people having nothing but faith in their life. Whether this is a consequence of a free market that commodifies knowlege not allowing those at the bottom access to the hope of education or simply the political system not giving them enough hope is an interesting question.

But if a person professes their faith personally and they accept other faiths happily then I see no harm. It is maybe more of a question of the extent of a persons faith. How fundementalist they are.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

But if a person professes their faith personally and they accept other faiths happily then I see no harm.

I see harm for the actual person, depending on what they have faith in. Now when it comes to something like just a belief in the afterlife, if this does not pervade into their real world thinking then I don't think there's much of a problem - I would claim that it would perhaps be better for them to try to come to a real acceptance of their mortality, but I don't think such a belief would be that bad... this is however a small number of people.

I think that for most people a belief in the afterlife does affect them in other aspects of their life - and through them affect other peoples lives. I also believe that from a belief in the afterlife springs other beliefs, and at the heart of all of these beliefs is usually illogical thought process which affects their decision making in all areas. I would not recommend telling people that religion is wrong (this is what religions do), I would simply like people to know how to apply critical thinking and scientific method (essentially skepticism) to all their beliefs - after that I believe atheism or at least a pantheistic or deistic belief should come.

 

[erawamai]

. I would claim that it would perhaps be better for them to try to come to a real acceptance of their mortality, but I don't think such a belief would be that bad, this is however a small number of people with such beliefs.

How many people in the world that are in a perhaps worse position than you are would be able to accept that? I think that's a bit of a fantasy. There really hasnt been a time in which there has been no 'god'.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

How many people in the world that are in a perhaps worse position than you are would be able to accept that? I think that's a bit of a fantasy.

Well I don't know, perhaps if they had access to be taught it they would be able to accept it - I don't believe if I woke up on the streets of india all of a sudden I would find life too hard and evoke a god (possibly if it got hard to the point of madness). But for the purpose of this discussion I think we should focus on the west, where rich people with ample access to education are still having such beliefs. In such poor nations of the world I see religion not as their saviour (tho it may temporarily make them feel better) but as a way to suppress them from making real progress. So while the belief in a God you are quite right is probably a big temporary plus for the individual living in such conditions, it is overall a negative thing.

There really hasnt been a time in which there has been no 'god'.

And all throughout that time, so much wrong has been done for him.

 

[withoutaface]

Not necessarily. You did not bumb into any old woman who was willing to share her life with you.

I'm sure there are several women who would be willing to do such a thing.

Put it this way, everything that occurs, happens because there is a purpose for it.

Evidence?

You have obviously met this person whom you are attracted to, and in response to this attraction, you've married her. The love you have between you *does* have meaning. Since you were both attracted to eachother, and are now married, you will now both continue to share that pleasure together.

Relevance?

Well techniquely you guys are married for life to share your earthly pleasure together. The only way out of marriage is if a spouse dies, if one has an affair or if one abandons the other.

Side-stepping the issue by assuming non Christians follow a Christian set of ethics.

Sorry I don't get this point, please explain in further detail.

You've essentially postulated that because my life has an end that it is meaningless.

I don't believe God was created at all. God was always there ever since the beginning of time, hence Revelation 22: 12 - 14 says: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Circular reasoning. You're using the bible to validate its own validity.

 

[The_Apprentice]

The only christian I know is a bad ass. She's a pill-poppin whore. But I love her.

 

[jer0me]

Buddha: Everything is as it should be.
Jesus: Shutup Buddha.

 

[Wolfowitz]

The only christian I know is a bad ass. She's a pill-poppin whore. But I love her.

I hate those fake christians.

The ones I know pill, fuck and live a generally un-Christian existance but are bleached-clean each Sunday morning.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yea I know alot of hillsong whores.

 

[yy]

whatever float your boat i guess, as long as they don't come and annoy me

 

[Lundy]

But heaven actually does exist. It's not visable to our earthly eyes, yet it's definetely there. If you want proof, read John's Gospel. Jesus came from heaven and opened the way for us sinners so that we may have fellowship with God when we die

That's circular reasoning dear.

"heaven exists"
"how do you know?"
"because the bible says so and the bible is god's word"
"how do you know the bible is god's word?"
"because the bible says so."

etc etc.

 

[stalk_if_u_dare]

I don't try to convert people to Christianity either. I am willing to share Christianity with non-Christians but not not force it down their throats. I believe that God is the one who chooses who believes and who doesn't.

Amen sister!

lol
Thats y i cant stand mormans, Jehovah Witnesses, etc.....leave me alone!

We have a sign thats somewhere around house saying;

"Jehovah Witnesses's BEWARE,
Christian Dog"

 

[sp0ntane0us]

Jehova's Witnesses don't share any of the basic Christian beliefs. They just call themselves "Chrsitian" to make themselves sound more plausible, when in actual fact, they're a cult.

 

[sp0ntane0us]

Who are you to judge which religion is a religion or a cult?

And they are a sect of the Christian faith.

I've been going to church all my life. I think I know what is Christian and what is not.

A CHRISTIAN THINKS: Jesus is God, he paid for the sins of the world and through him we'll go to heaven.

A JEHOVA'S WITNESS THINKS: only 144 people will get to heaven (what the...) and you need to work hard and do lots of good things to get there. Jesus doesn't even come into the picture. In what way is that "Christian faith"?