not all christians are boring stereotypical bible bashers (1 Viewer)

[Calculon]

Thanks for the detailed explanation of how the world came to be. Have you thought about *who* caused all this to happen, or do think it was an accident that just came to be?

The universe coming about all by itself is no less logical than God coming about by himself, because we don't know the laws that govern what occurs out side the universes borders.

 

[Steph9]

Were you bought up in a Christian household tho? It doesn't have to be strictly christian, but at least they believed in the christian god - they were not atheists or jews or whatever?

How can a Christian be a Christian without believing the Bible? That's like saying a Christian, who is someone who follows Christ, but doesn't believe in what He says. Sorry but that doesn't make sense to me. To answer the question if I was bought up in a Christian household, the answer is no, not in my immediate family.

[ QUOTE=Not-That-Bright]The bible is easily dismissed as a book written by men that never has made a supernatural prediction...[/QUOTE]

Just like all the other sacred texts of other religions.

Does it make you feel special?

In a way, it does. Romans 8 : 28 - 30 says: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also prestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

I pray God does not take this away from me, coz that would be the worst thing to happen.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

How can a Christian be a Christian without believing the Bible? That's like saying a Christian, who is someone who follows Christ, but doesn't believe in what He says. Sorry but that doesn't make sense to me. To answer the question if I was bought up in a Christian household, the answer is no, not in my immediate family.

So your parents are not christians? Or are you just using some sort of definition of 'christian' where they have to believe in your particular version of the bible and follow it or whatever?

The purpose of me asking if they're christian, just as in they believe in a 'christian' god and call themselves christian is because this is all that is relevant to show that it's just another example of social traits being passed down from parents to children. Which carries on to what I really wanted to discuss in this thread, which is whether or not there are a shitload of stereotypical 'bible bashers' whom perhaps don't even know they are. I know there are some great christians out there (particularily catholics - not just on this forum but on another forum I visit), but there's oh so many painfully bad ones...

Just like all the other sacred texts of other religions.

Yep. All wrong.

In a way, it does.

Of course it does, you're one of the special people that God chose and I am one of the unlucky ones that God has preordained for eternal damnation. All of a sudden your beliefs don't seem to make you or your God look like very nice people.

 

[Besty]

The problem is, to a layman like me reading the bible - the fundamentalists seem to be following the wishes of God much better than you, where as you come up with wild confabulations to support your beliefs, their beliefs are much easier to draw out of the bible (even if completely nonsensicle). That is why it appears that alot of christians are picking and choosing what they believe and are perhaps not following the bible correctly.
!

Point Taken. However, I think that is one of the problems with the church today. (note: when I say church, i'm referring to the "organised" parts of the church, ie the denominations such as the Anglican church etc.) The problem is that Christianity is about believing that Jesus died to take your sins away, and living in the hope and knowledge that this is the case. It ISNT about following rules and regulations (while it may appear that way on the outside) it isn't. Jesus taught that he came to give us "life to the full" (John 10:10) and set us free from the burden of the Law (the Old Testament rules and regulations.

This doesn't mean, though, that we can just accept Him and do whatever we want. Being a Christian is a process, and once you are a Christian, its pretty hard (in my opinion anyway) to justify living the way you did before you became a christian.

PS Even as a Christian, i have major problems with the church, and I dont deny that it has been VERY hypocritical and corrupt in the apst, and in some cases today, it is still corrupt and very hypocritical. But church and being a believer are two different things. Thats my view anyway!

 

[Steph9]

So your parents are not christians? Or are you just using some sort of definition of 'christian' where they have to believe in your particular version of the bible and follow it or whatever?

The first time the Bible uses the word "Christians" is in the Book of Acts 11 : 25 -27. The believers were first called disciples, which means follower, then later they were called Christians. There is only one version of the Bible, and hopefully our interpretations of Scripture do not misinterpret God's word.

The purpose of me asking if they're christian, just as in they believe in a 'christian' god and call themselves christian is because this is all that is relevant to show that it's just another example of social traits being passed down from parents to children. Which carries on to what I really wanted to discuss in this thread, which is whether or not there are a shitload of stereotypical 'bible bashers' whom perhaps don't even know they are. I know there are some great christians out there (particularily catholics - not just on this forum but on another forum I visit), but there's oh so many painfully bad ones...

If I seem like a Bible basher to you, then I'm very sorry for causing your distress. I use the Bible to support what I say.

Yep. All wrong.

Are you claiming all religions to be the same? And if they're all the same, that makes them wrong? If you have found an error in Scripture, then please tell me where it is.

Of course it does, you're one of the special people that God chose and I am one of the unlucky ones that God has preordained for eternal damnation. All of a sudden your beliefs don't seem to make you or your God look like very nice people.

That's why in the end I mentioned that the worst thing to happen would be for God to take away His Grace from me. After God created everything and sat back to see His creation, He "saw that every inclination of the thoughts of his [man's] heart was only evil all the time." (Genesis 6 : 5). Romans 3 : 10 - 12 says: "There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God, all have turned away." And the result of this rebellion against our Creator shows in Hebrews 9 : 27 "Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement."

 

[volition]

If you have found an error in Scripture, then please tell me where it is.

Seeing as you asked
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

edit: and before you come back to explain it, make sure you've read the part about where "Of the various methods I've seen to "explain" these:"

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The first time the Bible uses the word "Christians" is in the Book of Acts 11 : 25 -27. The believers were first called disciples, which means follower, then later they were called Christians. There is only one version of the Bible, and hopefully our interpretations of Scripture do not misinterpret God's word.

You don't understand the purpose of my operational definition either because you are willfully ignorant or maybe just not-that-bright - either way I can't be bothered going on this violent goose chase.

Are you claiming all religions to be the same? And if they're all the same, that makes them wrong? If you have found an error in Scripture, then please tell me where it is.

There are errors in most religions, however I believe Pantheistic / Deistic religious beliefs are fairly sound... however it's a stretch to call these beliefs religious. As for showing you an error, you will explain your way out of any error... even ones which make definitions of god logically impossible (i.e. god can't be both perfectly merciful and perfectly just) - your belief clouds your judgement too much for me to bother.

 

[Steph9]

Point Taken. However, I think that is one of the problems with the church today. (note: when I say church, i'm referring to the "organised" parts of the church, ie the denominations such as the Anglican church etc.) The problem is that Christianity is about believing that Jesus died to take your sins away, and living in the hope and knowledge that this is the case. It ISNT about following rules and regulations (while it may appear that way on the outside) it isn't. Jesus taught that he came to give us "life to the full" (John 10:10) and set us free from the burden of the Law (the Old Testament rules and regulations.

Thankyou for bringing this discussion back to the core of the Gospel.

PS Even as a Christian, i have major problems with the church, and I dont deny that it has been VERY hypocritical and corrupt in the apst, and in some cases today, it is still corrupt and very hypocritical. But church and being a believer are two different things. Thats my view anyway!

The Church, and I'm talking Church with a capital C is a group of people-man, women, boys and girls who are followers of the Christian faith. And people can be very hypocritical and corrupt in some cases. But the bottom line is, this is not God. God is not corrupt or hypocritical like us human beings.

 

[Steph9]

There are errors in most religions, however I believe Pantheistic / Deistic religious beliefs are fairly sound... however it's a stretch to call these beliefs religious. As for showing you an error, you will explain your way out of any error... even ones which make definitions of god logically impossible (i.e. god can't be both perfectly merciful and perfectly just) - your belief clouds your judgement too much for me to bother.

You said there are errors in *most* religions. Therefore without actually saying so, you are claiming that *some* religions are without error. So you basically believe in all gods and that the god who created this world just abandoned it without giving any revelation to man what so ever. You have not only offended Christians, but also Jews who believe in the coming of the Messiah and Muslims who believe they have the last and perfect revelation. God can and was perfectly merciful and perfectly just. Your statement denies that fact that God is God and is not limited to human mentality. And as for my beliefs clouding my judgement, you are not even making an attempt to disprove me. Think about your parents who made you and taught and brought you up to be the person you are today. At some point in your life, they may have asked you not to do something, but you disobeyed them. Your parents would be unjust if they did not punish your wrong doing. They would also be unmerciful if this broken trust was never fixed and the relationship repaired. In the same way, God is both perfectly merciful and perfectly just because he punishes the wrong-doers, but is willing to forgive those who come back to Him.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

You said there are errors in *most* religions. Therefore without actually saying so, you are claiming that *some* religions are without error.

Well without any errors that I can think of... pantheistic / deistic beliefs (please click the links before you respond) are quite hard to actually argue against...

You have not only offended Christians, but also Jews who believe in the coming of the Messiah and Muslims who believe they have the last and perfect revelation.

Yea but that doesn't really bother me, because I've got a justifiable belief and I'm not hurting anyone with my belief... well at least not as much as other beliefs hurt others.

God can and was perfectly merciful and perfectly just. Your statement denies that fact that God is God and is not limited to human mentality.

And as for my beliefs clouding my judgement, you are not even making an attempt to disprove me.

You've noticably ignored things I've said before... you don't seem to understand other parts of what I've said (either through willful ignorance or a lack of knowledge).. so I cannot be bothered taking up those particular debates with you. My points stand untill you make a decent attack on them, I will not continue to rationalise them in new ways for you.

Think about your parents who made you and taught and brought you up to be the person you are today.

My parents gave me the tools and facilitated me to become the person I am today, they didn't preach any beliefs on me (they were both however christians).

God is both perfectly merciful and perfectly just because he punishes the wrong-doers, but is willing to forgive those who come back to Him.

1. If God exists, then he is an all-just judge.
2. If God exists, then he is an all-merciful judge.
3. An all-just judge treats every offender with exactly the severity that he/she deserves.
4. An all-merciful judge treats every offender with less severity than he/she deserves.
5. It is impossible to treat an offender both with exactly the severity that he/she deserves and also with less severity than he/she deserves.
6. Hence, it is impossible for an all-just judge to be an all-merciful judge (from 3-5).
7. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 6).

I have heard it said by Christians that the way God judges offenders depends on whether or not they are true believers. If they are, then he is lenient with them, but if they are not, then he treats them with exactly the severity they deserve (which can be pretty bad). By this Christian way of speaking, God is said to be both an all-just and an all-merciful judge. He is all-just in giving everyone an equal opportunity to become a true believer and thereby come to receive leniency, but he is also all-merciful in that every true believer, without exception, receives mercy. This way of viewing matters would be an attack on both premise 3 and premise 4, above.

I would respond by maintaining that premises 3 and 4 come closer to capturing ordinary language than the given Christian way of speaking. According to the latter, God treats some offenders more leniently with regard to what they deserve than he does other offenders. It does not seem that such a judge would (or should) be called "all-just." And similarly, since he does not treat all offenders less severely than they deserve, he would not (and should not) be called "all-merciful" either. Instead of being both all-just and all-merciful, the Christian God, as described, would be neither.

As with many of the previous attacks on the incompatible-properties arguments, this one turns on semantical issues. In a sense, it is all a matter of semantics, for the issue of whether or not certain property ascriptions conflict with certain other property ascriptions depends very much on what exactly they mean. Theists could defend against the arguments by denying that the property terms in question mean what the proponents of the arguments claim they mean. Often such denials lead to still other difficulties for the theist. A full presentation and defense of incompatible-properties arguments should explore such implications and fully pursue the many issues, whether semantical or not. That project is beyond the scope of the present essay.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/incompatible.html

 

[Besty]

The Church, and I'm talking Church with a capital C is a group of people-man, women, boys and girls who are followers of the Christian faith. And people can be very hypocritical and corrupt in some cases. But the bottom line is, this is not God. God is not corrupt or hypocritical like us human beings.

Agreed! I forgot to make the distinction between "church' and The Church. Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[iwannarock]

Thanks for the detailed explanation of how the world came to be. Have you thought about *who* caused all this to happen, or do think it was an accident that just came to be?

so you think everything must have been done by something or created something?

that is invalid logic. because it can just go on forever. who made the earth, god did, but somebody must have made god, who made god, some bigger god but something must have made that bigger god, who made that bigger god, some puppy dog, who made the puppy dog etc etc etc

a lot of christians always say "well SOMEBODY must have made the universe". well if somebody did infact make that universe, under that logic something else made that SOMEBODY since something must always have been in existence prior to make that something. hope that makes sense.

and about bible bashers, they should read this passage in the bible.

Matthew 10:23 says Christians should leave where they are persecuted and go elsewhere. They should find people who will listen and leave the unbelievers alone.

again, this discussion will get nowhere. there is no point to this. people believe different things. just as i am not gonna be convinced of christianity, i am not gonna convince to the christians here that god does not exist.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Why does it have to be 'somebody'... I think 'something' is just as likely an explanation. We just say 'somebody' because that's the way human beings think, we build things... so whatever 'built' this must be like us too.

 

[iwannarock]

Why does it have to be 'somebody'... I think 'something' is just as likely an explanation. We just say 'somebody' because that's the way human beings think, we build things... so whatever 'built' this must be like us too.

exactly. it could have been something. it could have been nothing and purley accidental too. nobody knows.

 

[Steph9]

exactly. it could have been something. it could have been nothing and purley accidental too. nobody knows.

If the world was just purely an accident, then all life is meaningless. Therefore there's not really much point in living. Why don't we all commit suicide instead, because we live in a world that *accidently* formed itself into complexities and order? Why don't we cut down every tree and increase global warming and ozone layer depletion, after all guys, life is after all is not worth living if the world was mearly just an accident. And since we were made purely by accident, we have no responsibility what so ever in taking care of the environment in which we live.

 

[Calculon]

If the world was just purely an accident, then all life is meaningless.

So if I find my wife by complete accident (eg bump into her randomly in the street), does this mean any love between us becomes meaningless?

Therefore there's not really much point in living.

Again, there is a point, and that is pursuit of pleasure.

Why don't we all commit suicide instead, because we live in a world that *accidently* formed itself into complexities and order?

Why don't I just divorce my wife from the above example?

Why don't we cut down every tree and increase global warming and ozone layer depletion, after all guys, life is after all is not worth living if the world was mearly just an accident.

Just because something has an end does not make it meaningless.


Don't you just love religious logic? And besides, even if our lives are meaningless, this is merely scaring people into believing in God, not providing any evidence.

EDIT: So you believe that God was created by accident. This makes him, and any acts he commits meaningless.

 

[iwannarock]

If the world was just purely an accident, then all life is meaningless. Therefore there's not really much point in living. Why don't we all commit suicide instead, because we live in a world that *accidently* formed itself into complexities and order? Why don't we cut down every tree and increase global warming and ozone layer depletion, after all guys, life is after all is not worth living if the world was mearly just an accident. And since we were made purely by accident, we have no responsibility what so ever in taking care of the environment in which we live.

I don't get how you got from point A

"the world being created by accident"

to point B

"all life is meaningless, there's not much point in living".

people can be athiest or have a billion different views about how the world was created. the universal thing they have in common is that most people want to liveand be happy. you know religion and god is not the only "point" in life. and people wouldn't cut down every tree etc because then future generations would (our children and children's children) will have a poorer quality of life.

i honestly don't get your post at all.

 

[Lundy]

I've heard this again and again from religious people: "but if there is no god...life is meaningless, and that sucks. and we should all be depressed!"

So deep down inside, you believe in a higher being because it gives your life a meaning it wouldn't have had otherwise. The idea that there is nothing after we die is one that you find depressing. Heaven is a comforting thought for you.

Do you think all atheists are unhappy and depressed? I'm sure most of them aren't, so it's clearly possible to find happiness and meaning in this existence without belief in a deity. I think they have the right idea; to make the most of the life we have instead of focusing on winning brownie points from god in case there is a next.

 

[iwannarock]

Do you think all atheists are unhappy and depressed? I'm sure most of them aren't, so it's clearly possible to find happiness and meaning in this existence without belief in a deity. I think they have the right idea; to make the most of the life we have instead of focusing on winning brownie points from god in case there is a next.

yep, i agree totally.

well said. your post got me all frisky.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

If the world was just purely an accident, then all life is meaningless

What a simplistic view of the world... we carve out our own meaning in our lives.

Why don't we all commit suicide instead, because we live in a world that *accidently* formed itself into complexities and order?

What stupid logic... It is I whom value my life so much, I believe it's all I've got and it will be over in the blink of an eye. You believe when you die you continue on, so hows bout you kill yourself? Oh I know - The easy cop out 'but that's a sin!', alot of things are sins you dumbarse.

Why don't we cut down every tree and increase global warming and ozone layer depletion, after all guys, life is after all is not worth living if the world was mearly just an accident.

Again, stupid logic. It is actually the people whom believe in a diety with a grand plan etc whom probably don't care much about global warming/ozone etc... they believe that the diety has this all planned out and alot of christians actually believe the end will come within their lifetime.

Meanwhile as an Atheist I can take the value for human/other life that is programmed into us (some sort of evolutionary process probably) to come to the conclusion that I want to do what I can to build a sustainable future for the next generations...

after all guys, life is after all is not worth living if the world was mearly just an accident.

We make our own meaning. It's like building a snowman, it's fun to do at the time - even tho it is ultimately a pointless act.

And since we were made purely by accident, we have no responsibility what so ever in taking care of the environment in which we live.

This is something programmed into us... we care about our own survival and the survival of the rest of our species naturally. Empathy is something which evolution has granted us, along with our other emotions.