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Abortion debate (2 Viewers)

Abortion debate

  • Abortion illegalised

    Votes: 51 19.8%
  • Tougher laws

    Votes: 35 13.6%
  • Keep current laws

    Votes: 155 60.1%
  • don't care

    Votes: 17 6.6%

  • Total voters
    258
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robbie1 said:
If they don't want a baby, why did they spread their legs?
Wrong place at the wrong time, public toilet seats, airborne semen, the list goes on.

robbie1 said:
It's simple really, if your not ready to raise a child, don't fall pregnant.
Surely you should actually be telling people to get their shit on (or off) three times a day so as to receive many of these amazing blessings as possible. People don't even need to be ready and prepared to raise it, because God will lend a hand. What a fucking champion.

PS: No, really, I wasn't joking when I said I was done taking you morons seriously.
 

Zoe 2508

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Wheredanton seems to be the only one commenting on this forum that has the maturity to look at both sides of the issue.

Its not always the choice of the women to have sex (you know what i mean) and the the responsibilty for the child falls to both the father and the mother. Takes two to tango.

I have a best friend who was adopted and is therefore against abortion as it would mean that she wouldnt have lived, but i have a family friend who was the victim of rape and was forced to abort due to understandable reasons, so i am able to see both sides.

My attitude to this issue is split, although i do believe that under the right circumstances, once can be forgiven, but twice is a crime!
 
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Zoe 2508 said:
Wheredanton seems to be the only one commenting on this forum that has the maturity to look at both sides of the issue.

Its not always the choice of the women to have sex (you know what i mean) and the the responsibilty for the child falls to both the father and the mother. Takes two to tango.

I have a best friend who was adopted and is therefore against abortion as it would mean that she wouldnt have lived, but i have a family friend who was the victim of rape and was forced to abort due to understandable reasons, so i am able to see both sides.

My attitude to this issue is split, although i do believe that under the right circumstances, once can be forgiven, but twice is a crime!
The entire point of pro-choice is that it takes into account both sides of the argument, and allows for an informed and rational choice to be made. It's not a total ban on abortion, nor a universal approval.
 

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wheredanton said:
When did spreading your legs = pregnancy? Making babies requires two people and sex doesnt always involve the spreading of the legs. It would be better rephrase your post as 'why did she then have sex' rather than 'why did she spread her legs'. It makes you look like you hate any woman who chooses to have sex and enjoy that sex. It makes you look like a retard who believes the only person at fault for the birth of an unwanted child is the female. You arn't going to stop any abortions or prevent any unwanted pregnanies by being a patronising idiot who believes he knows whats best for all women. A quick perusal of your posts seems to indicate that you don't have the first clue about woman in general. You don't even attempt to understand their viewpoint, why do you expect anyone to listen to you?

Are you really doing any good or are going to change the opinion of anyone in this forum with your words?
Well with spreading their legs I mean having sex, you know that.
 

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robbie1 said:
Well with spreading their legs I mean having sex, you know that.
Do you really think you are going to change anyones opinions by being so crude or deaming towatds woman who have sex (almost every adult in the population). You make it sound as if women are bad or wrong if they have sex.

Your current candour is doing more to prevent people coming over to christianity and endorsing your views.
 

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bshoc said:
Ok lets evaluate "your" so called definition, and the many morons of this thread who share it.

You say that even though a fetus has its own genetic identity, its own bodily function and uniqueality, it does not constitute human becuase it does not posses "higher mental function" or "acute self awareness."
This appears to be a pre-requisite in determining what is a sentient, functioning, human person, and merely a human being of genetic code.

Yet neither do people in comas, epeleptics, some of the mentally ill .. and ofcourse people who are sleeping.
Apart from the coma, most of the others possess some semblance of higher mental order/capabilities, and you don't suddenly become a zombie in your sleep. You drift into a state of inner consciousness, but you are somewhat still aware/influenced by concepts around you.

Thus if somebody killed you tommorow at night in your sleep, you would have no problem with it since you were not "alive" by your definition anyway.
Thus, null and voided.

Yet you and people like you seem to think that you have a special "pick and choose" right, where you can pick and choose what lives and what is not fit for life, that makes you what? Maybe a tab bit better than an SS camp warden or a T4-administrator.
The concept here isn't a forceful denial of choice, but rather the offer of an alternative TO THOSE INVOLVED. Not some overriding political/socio-religious opinion from those who are not in the situation.

Whereas, pro-life forces you into one point of action, pro-choice allows the oppurtunity to maintain that life or concede it.

So heres the implication, either stand up for what you say for and accept its entirety and impications, thus you have no problem with killing: the unborn, coma patients, epeleptics, mental patients, people in their sleep
As above.

or you admit that in society women should have the legal right to murder their babies, thus making you, an extremely sick fuck who believes every little thing popular society shoves down you throat, and makes no better than a jew murdering nazi.
What help would forcing this pro-life attitude down the throat of a maliciously raped female individual, who now has fallen pregnant? By making her have the baby, are we then condoning the use of rape on women, in 'making' them raise a child that they did not wish for and reminds them of the event? Would the spectacle of child being born to a drug addict and dying within the first week or month due to the condition of the mother really achieve anything?

Genocide and Abortion issues have very little in common, genocide involves the meticulous mass murder and elimination of a complete race, based on nothing but a whim or seriously racist view. Pro-Choice is a far more personal and complicated course of action, which DOESN'T necessarily lead to the death, but allows for the mother/those involved to make a decision based on their situation.
 
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OK I'm gonna add to my procrastination time here and highlight a few fundamental flaws presented by the pro-life argument:

1) "If you can't raise a child don't get pregnant.

You disgust me, you pig and I am being quite serious, your disdain for women is only exceeded by your utter lack of intellectual ability.
Let us for a moment consider what you have said: all pregnancies are planned and thus if you get pregnant as a result of poor planning (read rape/human error) you should accpet the consequences of your *irresponsible* actions and move one. Oh and don't worry if you ask God really nicely he might give you a bit of a hand.

2) Words to the effect of "Stupid socialite whores who are assisted by the government who practically cram money down their throats."

Let's take a look back at what Robbie1 said about God's involvement:
"If you truly take God in to your heart he will help you."

Well what if women don't want to take God in to their heart? What if, instead, they want to take something that is actually tangible and reliable "in to their heart" so to speak?

3) Women don't own their own bodies, God/Jesus does.

This argument seems to come out of the idea that women can't fully comprehend their bodies (ie they don't know when they are going to die, can't count the hairs on their head, that kind of stuff) and thus because God/Jesus can then they must belong to God/Jesus.

Well, in saying that let me ask you this: If God/Jesus owns a woman's body is He therefore responsible for what occurs to that body? Thus, according to your argument in regards to personal responsibility God/Jesus is responsible for getting the woman pregnant in the first place! I mean, she can't possibly be held responsible for what happens to her body if she doesn't even own it now can she?


That about covers it for now I think.
 

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bshoc said:
You say that even though a fetus has its own genetic identity, its own bodily function and uniqueality, it does not constitute human becuase it does not posses "higher mental function" or "acute self awareness." Yet neither do people in comas, epeleptics, some of the mentally ill. and ofcourse people who are sleeping. Thus if somebody killed you tommorow at night in your sleep, you would have no problem with it since you were not "alive" by your definition anyway.
once more your scientific knowledge is way off the mark. but dont let the fact you're lying stop you making an argument

Yet you and people like you seem to think that you have a special "pick and choose" right, where you can pick and choose what lives and what is not fit for life, that makes you what? Maybe a tab bit better than an SS camp warden or a T4-administrator.
you're the one trying to impose a world view on everybody and limit their freedoms yet you're trying to call me a nazi. also top marks for evoking the nazi cluase. pretty much showing everyone here you've lost.

So heres the implication, either stand up for what you say for and accept its entirety and impications, thus you have no problem with killing: the unborn
coma patients, epeleptics, mental patients, people in their sleep or you admit that in society women should have the legal right to murder their babies,
lets go through that list
unborn - only before a certain point when they gain the required functions to be considered human. born or unborn isnt the question.
coma - only if braindead. but i'm sure your definition of "coma" is what they show on tv, ie anyone unconscious.
epileptics - you're the only one discussing it. most epilepsy is controllable and all epileptics have higher brain functions
mental patients - oh i like this one. esp as given mental patient means anyone being seen by a psych or neuro not only those who have been diagnosed. really good use of language there
people in thier sleep - another good one. also only mentioned by you and ign oring every single piece of scientific theory and fact mentioned so far
murdering babies - you sure seem to get a lot of terminology mixed up. foetus does not equal baby

thus making you, an extremely sick fuck who believes every little thing popular society shoves down you throat, and makes no better than a jew murdering nazi.
i promote choice and freedom yet you propose to shove your ideas down everyones throats.
only the nazis who murdered jews are bad? meaning you support all the nazis who only killed gypsies, jehovas witnesses, gays, political dissidents, and so on. shall we ignore the 4 million non-jews murdered in the holocaust? the 2 million soviet soldiers who died in nazi camps? the 5 million soviet civillians who died in the conflict? the 10 million chinese civillians killed by the japs? oh wait you're not accepting the view of popular society.
 

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The Brucemaster said:
Well, in saying that let me ask you this: If God/Jesus owns a woman's body is He therefore responsible for what occurs to that body? Thus, according to your argument in regards to personal responsibility God/Jesus is responsible for getting the woman pregnant in the first place! I mean, she can't possibly be held responsible for what happens to her body if she doesn't even own it now can she?
That about covers it for now I think.
Nice argument.
 

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The Brucemaster said:
3) Women don't own their own bodies, God/Jesus does.

This argument seems to come out of the idea that women can't fully comprehend their bodies (ie they don't know when they are going to die, can't count the hairs on their head, that kind of stuff) and thus because God/Jesus can then they must belong to God/Jesus.

Well, in saying that let me ask you this: If God/Jesus owns a woman's body is He therefore responsible for what occurs to that body? Thus, according to your argument in regards to personal responsibility God/Jesus is responsible for getting the woman pregnant in the first place! I mean, she can't possibly be held responsible for what happens to her body if she doesn't even own it now can she?
according to this logic god is also responsible for all the abortions. stop concincing us and try to convince him in your prayers. unless of course you think yourself above god.
 

veridis

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bshoc said:
A fetus is already a composite of all the necessary features of a human, a cancer is not.
wrong. take a foetus out of the mother what happens? death. even extreme(months after abortions stop) premature babies often die without the mother. a foetus has the potential to become a human with further input from the mother. but so does a sperm or egg. is every sperm i dont use murder? every time a chick has a period murder?
 

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veridis said:
wrong. take a foetus out of the mother what happens? death. even extreme(months after abortions stop) premature babies often die without the mother. a foetus has the potential to become a human with further input from the mother. but so does a sperm or egg. is every sperm i dont use murder? every time a chick has a period murder?
The keyword is often, not always. No sperm and eggs are not people, once they combine, thats a person because its cells are no longer identical to either the mother or the father.
 

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sperm and eggs arent identical, the only have i copy of each gene when parent cells have 2. as i've said before cancer arent the same either, they've had significant mutations. you've also never stated why accidental changes the the genome(ie cancer) are any less ligitimate than systematic changes(ie sperm and egg combining)

and if you want to argue on often/always i'll define. no baby removed from their mother in the first 20 weeks has ever survived. to my knowledge without medical risk to the mother abortion is not allowed after the first trimester. thats leaving quite a big gap between when abortions stop and foetuses become viable individual beings.
to correct my earlier statement "premature babies always die if removed from the mother before 20 weeks"
 

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ogmzergrush said:
Not quite. See my previous suggestion about learning to read, and learning to understand the viewpoint which you're arguing about.
Right after you read some stuff about how trying to change the topic after being owned is not a viable diversionary tactic.

BTW im reposting every single sentence of my post until you either adress it or stop being an idiot, quotation systems on this board will not be your saviour.

"You say that even though a fetus has its own genetic identity, its own bodily function and uniqueality, it does not constitute human becuase it does not posses "higher mental function" or "acute self awareness."

Discussed already, refuted, and judged to be somewhat irrelevant. Once again, learn to read.
Explain it then:

"Yet neither do people in comas, epeleptics, some of the mentally ill .. and ofcourse people who are sleeping. Thus if somebody killed you tommorow at night in your sleep, you would have no problem with it since you were not "alive" by your definition anyway."

More than a little amusing, given that you somehow see that it's your right to decide on behalf of all that birth is clearly the best option. It's good that you're looking out for the growths, but it's more than a little sad that you can't see past your attachment to this little blob of meat to see that the decision also affects the OMG REAL LIFE of an OMG REAL PERSON. It's nice that you can decide that the rights of one outweigh the rights of the other though.
Yes I dont think a baby should die because its mother considers it an inconvenience, the same way we dont murder people in the real world for reasons like this.

If a woman has a baby thats partly her own doing, she has a duty to care for it from coneption to birth, if shes one of the sorry sluts who couldn't keep her legs closed and ended up pregnant, there would be many families happy to adopt.

The implication, as I believe I've stated, is that the logical line pursued by most pro-choicers over the last twenty pages of this thread, continues to remain unshaken by the emotive and factually devoid opposition, at least in my opinion.
Yes and your opinion differs from both the scientific and moral facts of our little dilemma.

and has not achieved the success which you seem to see. That's fine though,
Too bad the 70's are over and all the stupid hippies are dying off eh? Society is headed down the same path here (eventually) as in the US, a moral backlash, to a minority who percieves itself to be majority, and which believes it can decide on which child dies and which child lives. Just keep living in your little fantasy world while people like me and robbie undo the work of babykilling liberals and feminists.

if you're too fucking stupid to know you're beat, to know that you're arriving at conclusions without a basis, and too stupid to know that you don't even understand the views you're arguing against, so be it, you are indeed the victor!
I understand that you cant keep your opinion straight, and that you always go off topic and never argue a point once I reply to it, insead responding with crap just like that, cmon if its so easy:

"So heres the implication, either stand up for what you say for and accept its entirety and impications, thus you have no problem with killing: the unborn, coma patients, epeleptics, mental patients, people in their sleep or you admit that in society women should have the legal right to murder their babies, thus making you, an extremely sick fuck who believes every little thing popular society shoves down you throat, and makes no better than a jew murdering nazi."

Edit: Just so you know, your continued participation in this thread, if anything, is simply strengthening the case for abortion.
Just so you know, and you do, you're bullshitting
 

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Asylum and verdis, since omgzergrush and you guys are brainwashed with the same left liberal, anti-Iraq war, babykilling, pro-VSU bullshit (that will change once your easy life is gone), is it really necessary to make a response after omgzergrush, you know I'm not going to be bothered answering 3 huge slabs of near-identical text, and the fact that you're saying stuff thats been both covered and refuted.
 

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veridis said:
sperm and eggs arent identical, the only have i copy of each gene when parent cells have 2. as i've said before cancer arent the same either, they've had significant mutations. you've also never stated why accidental changes the the genome(ie cancer) are any less ligitimate than systematic changes(ie sperm and egg combining)

and if you want to argue on often/always i'll define. no baby removed from their mother in the first 20 weeks has ever survived. to my knowledge without medical risk to the mother abortion is not allowed after the first trimester. thats leaving quite a big gap between when abortions stop and foetuses become viable individual beings.
to correct my earlier statement "premature babies always die if removed from the mother before 20 weeks"
Are you a cancer? Does a person come from a cancer? Are a scientifically dumbfucked?

Does a cancer have ANY chance or survial when separated from the host body? What is a cancer other than the genetic material of one person? WHy the fuck even bring this up?

Ahh thats right because you have nothing LEGITIMATE to say. I guess thats why I never met any smart psych people, you're all morons.
 
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robbie1 said:
Incorrect, I know it wouldn't be easy. The woman would be devestated, but with God's help she can see it through and give the baby up for adoption. Rape or not, she is still bringing life into the world.

People dont realise these days how much God can actually help us. I can probably speak for a lot of people on this forum when I say that our granparents and great-granparents had much harder lives than we do today.

My great grandfather for example, lived to see 3 wars (WW1, WW2 and the war in Croatia). He grew up in poverty and during times where food was scarce. He had to engage in back braking labour to earn a few cents so they had bread to eat.

Yet, he never complained. He was very holy and God took away all the pain. These days, people feel a little upset and claim to have "depression", which people like my GGF probably felt to a much larger extent. But people prayed back then, and God helped them. Today, we have it so much easier yet everyone has depression because they cant handle a bit of stress - they dont pray and even worse they mock God.

My point is that victims of rape should seek help from God. They will recieve it if they seek it with all their heart. So therefore, abortion is not necessary under any circumstances.
Don't you even THINK of pulling that shit on me. EVER.

I am living proof that there is no loving god that looks after people. You want to know something about me?

I grew up in Croatia during the civil war and if you precious god exists, where was he when my family needed him? Nowhere. Three of my brothers died from gunshots and landmines, I was shot in my leg outside my school, my muslim friend and her family were slain to death in their home, I was beaten to near death by rebel soilders, my Nana died when our house was set on fire. Our next house was set on fire and we ended up having to flee the country.

And where was god? Nowhere.

DON'T pull Jesus shit on me. It will get you nowhere.
 

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I have sex because I enjoy it - that doesn't make me a slut. It is OK for a man to stick his dick anywhere and love getting laid, but the moment a woman enjoys sex, she gets called a whore. Double standards much?

My body, my choice. I make responsbile decisions regarding contraception and if they fail, I'd abort. I don't want a pregnancy. Just because you have sex doesn't mean you want to play mummy. Deal.
 

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Well not to be a smartass, but god wouldnt protect people who dont believe in him since they're doomed to hell anyway right? robbie's the chrsitan, but I'm pretty sure thats what he's saying.
 

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*Minka* said:
I have sex because I enjoy it - that doesn't make me a slut. It is OK for a man to stick his dick anywhere and love getting laid, but the moment a woman enjoys sex, she gets called a whore. Double standards much?
Whoever calls you a whore, they're right, how can you expect people to respect anyone who doesent even respect themselves? I've never gotten "laid", although I've had about 100 opportunities, you know why, partly becuase no-one with a brain wants to screw sluts like yourself (whose numbers are absolutely overflowing, making you both cheap, useless and expendable), partly becuase some poeple still have a brain

My body, my choice. I make responsbile decisions regarding contraception and if they fail, I'd abort.
And with any luck, we'll soon be living in a society where you'll hang for that decision, Roe v Wade is about to get flung out of the US supreme court by the conservative justices, sweet justice :)
 
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