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Can you be Christian, and support the existance of the state? (3 Viewers)

dieburndie

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Mate I think its pretty obvious from you're recent posts here that you are hostile towards Christianity.

So if Christian teachings that have worked well for centuries are to be rejected, what alternative moral code can you put forward to guide us? Especially since you reject the state, how then shall we ensure that people behave in a decent and civilized manner?
We can't ensure that people behave in a decent and civilised manner. As stated by Rothbard, human psychology is a mixture of good and bad, and a truly anarcho-capitalist society is desirable because it incentivises the good aspects.

Christian teachings have failed for centuries. Christianity advocates indecency, and is very commonly practised by the extremely uncivilised. You're correct in saying I am hostile towards Christianity, claiming this means I am hostile to morality displays the very same ignorance and narrow-mindedness I've come to expect from your breed of incredibly delusional fairy-dancers
 

Iron

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lol beware dom
the christian troll is the beginning of conversion...
 

dieburndie

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The Christian moral code isn't exactly unique to Christianity.

I'm a strong atheist, and I believe that 'thou shalt not kill', so to speak, more strongly than I suspect many Christians do.

Morals don't just vanish into thin air in the absence of religion.
Exactly this.
 

dieburndie

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So where exactly is the morality in your public boast "I Fucked Your Dad"?
It is merely a reference to a webcomic character in my previous avatar, I haven't changed it. Having said that, assuming our relations were entirely consensual, there wouldn't be anything immoral about fucking your dad.
 

Iron

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Fucking is a violent verb and implies rape in this context bc dads cant be gay
 

Iron

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At any rate, fatherhood bestows a seniority which someone like DBD could not match in a consensual act of fornication. If it was truely consensual, it should read Your Dad Fucked Me.
Rape is established beyond any doubt and that's immoral
 

murphyad

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So as I said before, you could justify anything, even the most awful things imaginable as moral.
I would be intrigued to see anyone's moral 'justification' for, say, raping children.

Moral values are not created ex nihilo, but proceed from premises such as universality ('do unto others as you would have done unto yourself') or whatever. A moral judgement that all humans have the right to life, or that all children have the right to be raped, is therefore an axiomatic process: you proceed from a premise (universality and the right to life), make a deduction (all humans are equal) and thus a conclusion (all humans have a right to life). It would be very difficult to justify under any reasonable circumstances the raping of children.

Furthermore, you display a curious contradiction between your desire to be free of the state and your desire to be controlled by some archaic religion. You've got one foot in the past and another in the future and as a result you're wildly off-balance. This is classic doublethink right here, that you could believe in the emancipation of humans from the clutches of the state but still remain within the clutches of religion, organised or not. If people want to create an AC society, they should not do it because of religious considerations or that would negate the whole point of being freed from some centralising authority such as Christianity, which encourages people to band together in worship etc.
Another thing I have noticed is that to you, everything relates back to ideology. This is a fundamentally Marxist position whether you like it or not. Furthermore, since everything relates to ideology, everything therefore justifies the abolition of government. This is a single-villain mindset that fails to account for the differing motivations behind people's ideas about the state, or religion or whatever in organised society.
 

Lukybear

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Christian teachings have failed for centuries. Christianity advocates indecency, and is very commonly practised by the extremely uncivilised. You're correct in saying I am hostile towards Christianity, claiming this means I am hostile to morality displays the very same ignorance and narrow-mindedness I've come to expect from your breed of incredibly delusional fairy-dancers
It is quite sad how you believe Christianity advocates idenceny. Your hatred, dare I call it that is completely unwarranted. Your exploration of the world, has sunken, into the dark abyss set out by our Father's enemy. Bias, is its foundation, its nutrients and its expression.

As stated by Rothbard, human psychology is a mixture of good and bad
You said yourself, humanity is certainly quite evil. Yet, the blame for these abhorrent acts are falsifiedly placed upon Christianity. These putrid statements are not founded on any real life examples. Beyond that, you completely miss the myriads of wondrous deeds done by the Church, for all people. Anglicare, the countless number of volunteers, who do not harvest anything from their work, but join solely for God's glory and the endless list of other gracefull works of charity.

It certainly would be wise to change your viewpoint before the sharp and swift sword of judgement strikes.
 
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SylviaB

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It is quite sad how you believe Christianity advocates idenceny. Your hatred, dare I call it that is completely unwarranted. Your exploration of the world, has sunken, into the dark abyss set out by our Father's enemy. Bias, is its foundation, its nutrients and its expression.

oh dear god please stop it.

At least Iron sounds half eloquent.
 

dieburndie

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It certainly would be wise to change your viewpoint before the sharp and swift sword of judgement strikes.
I would rather be brutally executed by your supposedly benevolent god than forfeit my intellectual and moral integrity in submission to your dogmatic, authoritarian fantasy.

Get fucked.
 

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It is quite sad how you believe Christianity advocates idenceny. Your hatred, dare I call it that is completely unwarranted. Your exploration of the world, has sunken, into the dark abyss set out by our Father's enemy. Bias, is its foundation, its nutrients and its expression.



You said yourself, humanity is certainly quite evil. Yet, the blame for these abhorrent acts are falsifiedly placed upon Christianity. These putrid statements are not founded on any real life examples. Beyond that, you completely miss the myriads of wondrous deeds done by the Church, for all people. Anglicare, the countless number of volunteers, who do not harvest anything from their work, but join solely for God's glory and the endless list of other gracefull works of charity.

It certainly would be wise to change your viewpoint before the sharp and swift sword of judgement strikes.
Nauseating. Let me get this straight. You draw your morality from the Bible and within the Bible it commands:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


So either you 1) Do not actually get your morality from the bible (and ergo you are not a true Christian) or 2) agree and submit to the above commands are (I take this to be self evident) an abhorant, nasty sociopath
 
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As a Christian I find it disturbing that all the anarchists on this site seem to be fanatical, militant atheists. Tbh, I would actually be quite worried about an anarcho-capitalist society populated by these sorts of morally vacuous nihilists. (Of course a democracy with the same demographics would be worse because they would use it to initiate force).

The bible teaches us that violence and stealing is wrong. It does not mention any exceptions for large organisations that call themselves states. How can Christians possibly justify the existence of a state which demands involuntary payments and uses force against anyone who doesn't pay?

We already have the bible telling us to love thy neighbour, and to care for the poor and the sick and the weak. We don't need the state forcing us to do this. God gave us free will, and if we chose the path of greed and selfishness, that is between us and god.
Hmm. Well, with regard to the OP, I guess it would depend on how one interprets both Christianity and the function of the State.
 
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In some ways, the function of the State and the Christian Bible are very similar, which others have no doubt pointed out. Whilst the Bible does say 'love thy neighbour' etc, it also says things like:

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword."
Matthew 10: 34-36

It states that God has punished and will punish people for not behaving as He wants them to. How is this ultimately different from the interpretation of the State which you hold up? A 'dictator' which enforces one set of ideals onto the masses?

The State, too, can be seen as having both positive and negative aspects to it. Whilst it does, in your words, demand 'involuntary payments and uses force against anyone who doesn't pay', it also enforces ideals beneficial to all humans through the law. Within the Bible it says 'thou shalt not kill', and this ideal is enshrined by the State with its protection of citizens. Imo, your definition of the State is far too negative and absolutist, just as my above interpretation of the Bible/Christianity is...
 

KFunk

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The interesting question here, in my opinion, is how groups with a belief in some kind of transcendent, or higher, truth can acheive peaceful cooexistence with others in a society which doesn't fully conform to their concept of truth or the good. This is more or less the question of the latter part of the career of the political philosopher John Rawls. At points Rawls directly discusses the issue of gaining religious support - see, for example, sections 3.1- 3.2 in The Idea of Public Reason Revisited," Chicago Law Review (1997), 64 (3): 765-807. Of course, in broader terms, Rawls is also famous for providing a modern political philosophy, owing much to the social contract tradition, aiming to show how basic institutions could be jsutified - liberties, law, taxation.

In terms of participation in a community featuring divergent views a minimum condition is that one accept some kind of principle of tolerance (one might disagree with or even actively hate a set of beliefs, but it is important to tolerate them - with the caveat, which so upsets the anarchists, 'unless they act in violation of the norms established by accepted, coercive law'). I was interested to learn that in 1965 the Catholic church passed a declaration on religious freedom, and thus toleration, called Dignitatus Humanae. Such a declaration offers the grounds required for Catholicism to coexist in the context of modern, pluralist democracies. Apparently some (fringe? I don't really know the discipline) scholars have suggested that the seeds of tolerance and constitutional openness can be found in Shari'a law provided that greater emphasis is placed on Muhammad's earlier Mecca teachings.
 

bassetthound

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"The bible teaches us that violence and stealing is wrong. It does not mention any exceptions for large organisations that call themselves states"

You mean like the church itself? One only has to look at The Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition to see that the church is preaching the wrong message. Thousands of people lost their lives or property in each case, just because Christians were convinced that their imaginary friend is better than anyone else's.

The entire concept of Christianity, and faith in general, is flawed. Humans seem unable to cope with the fact that we are the highest order of life on earth, and most try to shift this responsibility on to a higher power. The omnipotent figure often worshiped has been created by humans, for humans, to place their guilt about the sad state of global affairs. Faith also helps us grieve, as it makes us believe that lost loved ones are not actually dead, but still alive in some utopia far removed from earth.
The concept of an afterlife is also flawed. It makes us devalue our lives on this earth in exchange for something we don't even know exists- why?
 

Cookie182

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LOL

I got trolled.

Had no idea Zimmerman8k was copkiller.

Sup.
 

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