Muslim People in Australia (3 Viewers)

[davin]

ok, first of all, none of those quotes claim a heliocentric universe, so i don't see why copernicus is involved.
second, as of the greeks, they already knew about about <b>six</b> planets; Mercury, venus, the earth (not thought of as planet then), mars, jupiter, and saturn.
I also don't see why you make the claim of 7 worlds, as, if thats' in reference to planets, we have 9, 8 if you don't count Pluto.

so where does 7 worlds come into this as scientifically accurate?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I think everyone knows what it means... but i dont think much of anyone knows how to do it...

eg; No hate, No envy, No evil thoughts, No evil deeds [Murder, rape, stealing, violence, breaking peoples property, lieing], No dirty things... [Wearing really sleezy outfits, Nudity.., Cheating, Sex Before marriage, Pornographty, Thoughts about sex with someone other then your wife/husband, talking about a womans/mans body eg; "hey bro look at her ass"]

Being ungrateful for what you have, disrespecting your family, not being hospitable to those who need it, not feeling empathetic to those in a worse position, feeling vengeful....

Spending money wastefully, not thinking about others, gambling, doing things that can harm your body, being cruel to the environment or animals.
eg;( you may have heard the term HALAL meat, it means before the animal was killed it was killed painlessly as possible and the animal was prayed on... so it wasnt a vicious act... like they do at kfc... (200 chickens, 20 litres of water, 8000V of electricity)

(most of them are common sense... but who could do it all?)
Even if you cant... you could be forgiven... if you are a good person...

basically it means... be a good person... and not think evil thoughts.. or do evil deeds... and be nice and caring...

(in my opinion more buddhist monks will end up in heaven then "muslims in australia")

lol....

Can't you see the problem with your answer? There are issues that arise with every one of the points you made which are too numerous to mention (however I will begin if you don't believe me) - as for HotShot...

lol, i cant have pacemakers and u cant use a calculator or a computer to the thinking for u.
i think thats what it means...

What. The. Fuck.

 

[Zayd]

there is no such thing as a lack of technology, just look at taj mahal and the pyramids the great wall china...

lack of technology is an excuse...

man could have done that ages ago u never know.

lol
when i mean technology i mean computers, electronics, x-ray, satellites, etc.
The taj Mahal was made by a MUSLIM, and so are a number of Mosques all around the world, e.g. turkey.

*Notice the many posts before mine were indicating how islam has not contributed to science.

By naming the Taj Mahal, you have made it a whole lot easier.

My previous post, provided a link in which comments were made by Scientists in response to the many scientific facts in the Quran, and how it was impossible for Muhammad (pbuh) to come up with (without the technological advances scientists have available to them today). hence, the Quran can only be the devine word of God.

 

[ur_inner_child]

I think everyone knows what it means... but i dont think much of anyone knows how to do it...

eg; No hate,

It's part of human nature to hate. If I saw the same person kill each and every one of my loved ones and I had no one left, you cannot expect me to NOT hate this person. It does not necessarily equate to other deeds such as revenge, but hate can be passive, if that was going to be your rebuttal.

Sex Before marriage

I can't see how sex before marriage can be something impure of heart. My boyfriend's parents aren't married, are still together, and have three children. There is no difference between a married couple and them except the title. Their atheists, and I feel that their intention to stay together and love each other without confirming the title just shows so much commitment and strength. Sex before marriage doesnt equate to promiscuity, or a dismissal of love - it doesnt have to. It can be purely for love. Marriage was not always around, its a construct, and if you feel its a God given gift, its more man-made than God-made.

In saying this I do see it as a religious thing - where God sees you as "one". I also see it as a very generalised way to secure a relationship - to make both parties come to terms with the 'forever' idea. But there are exceptions...

, Pornographty

Its been said that it lessens the rate of sexual crimes (ie other evils such as rape). But I'm not really passionate against the matter. You need to understand the social consequences of such things...

, Being ungrateful for what you have, disrespecting your family, ....

I'll get into this later. *

doing things that can harm your body,

A lot of medicine is potentially harmful... but again, I'm not so passionate about this.

(most of them are common sense... but who could do it all?)
Even if you cant... you could be forgiven... if you are a good person...

It's a good thing you recognise this.


*you're lucky that you think so straightforwardly and havent come across anything that sways your values to the point that you don't actually know what the right answer is. It's not a bad thing, it's just that you're not aware of such things as yet. And if you feel I've assumed too much, its what I've only gathered from that post, so bare with me. I just consider someone that can lay down what it is to be pure so quickly and confidently with such detail should always be of suspicion.

I always hate bringing it into a personal level, but it always seems to be appropriate, its the only thing of mine that I still fight and think about everyday.

My parents were very strict - not from just never letting me out, or forbidding me to have friends that were male, but moreso that they were always suspicious of me.

No matter how much i tried to assure them through my actions and words, they suspected the worst of me. They assumed I was having random sex somewhere if I was half an hour late home from school. They'd get extremely angry about it and drag it through for the next few years. They would assume I didnt want to go to uni. They think that without their constant presence, I would be out of control. They wouldn't let me choose subjects I should do in highschool, let alone what degree for uni, despite any of my feelings or ideas about where my talents lie. They hated everything about me, but yet loved me because I was their daughter.

A few times I tried to fight for my right to choose or make decisions. But I always stayed where morals were obviously right - obviously I couldnt take it anymore.

I moved out for 2 months around the time year 12 started, because they found out I picked my own subjects... Whether it was morally right hadn't occured to me, but I quickly moved back home, because I missed them far too much. (Bare with me here I do have a point)

I moved out again last december (2 years after the first time), because they could not get off my back with who I was and what I wanted to be, and not even compromise was enough for them. I was always a "bad" daughter in their eyes, and there was nothing I could do to change it without being unhappy and not myself. If I chose to be myself, I was abused verbally and physically.

Respecting my parents - well, in terms of respect I didnt respect their beliefs and the situation and left home without telling them, otherwise it'd fuck up my safety. I didnt respect them when they called me and demanded me home. I didn't respect the way they raised me and lived through me. I still love them but when it comes to whether I did the right or wrong thing, I hesitate to say, considering the situation I was in, it was not either this or that. No matter how "right" i feel about leaving home to be myself and to be safe from harm, I still feel "wrong" for abandoning them, and afterall, I still AM their daughter.

And yet, religious types of all kinds have condemned me for what I did, and I just think that its a bit much to tell me its either right or wrong, when the situation is much more complicated than that and deserves a lot more consideration that to jump at such categories. I wouldn't even call myself pure of heart. I don't feel I am either this or that. Just justified.

So I hesitate when you lay down what it is to be "pure" so easily like that... Almost "offended".

 

[sam04u]

Well... i emphasise with you... and i see that, the kinda stress you were in... seemed painful... but in a sense they were "pure of heart", i do think they were way to harsh.. and they didnt respect your decision. No one, should have the right to tell you what to study... (unless they paid for your schooling, or worked really hard to give you what they didn't have)

Moving out is a scary thing.. i think you're very brave. <3
And i sense you are pure of heart (probably because of your parents or because you are a nice person).

However i know girls in infinitely worse positions... they have no where to go, they get sexually abused and blame themselves, among other things (like being belted for forgetting to do the dishes)....

I offer to help these people they beg me not to... so remember... moving out wasn't disrespecting them... it was respecting yourself...

Now to the other guy... Planet means "Wanderer" in Ancient Greek.... NO one imagined the idea of ANOTHER planet or ANOTHER world before the Qur'an...
(Heaven and Hell dont count... since the idea of what those places are only changed due to media/books/etc.. no one really knows too much... theres little biblical references... hell isnt the bottom of a volcano... theres no clouds in heaven....)

And to the other guy... coming up with 1 idea is hard enough... 2 almost impossible..(i meant ones that are that complex... only 500 years ago that would have been impossible... imagine 1400 years ago?)

Theres over 100... just as complex.. and incase you didn't know... Muhammad (PBUH) Didn't know how to read or write. And yet he produced literature that cant be compared today? with a range of ideas? which are "that" complex?

Greeks new about planets... Lol... they thought that the stars were about 100 feet in the air.. and the earth was the center of the universe.....

Edit: The idea is 7 Parts... Eg; Earth (pan out), Solar System (pan out), Galaxy (pan out), Universe (pan out), Something Else (Group of Universes? All with different "physics" and laws?), A Group of these?, And 1 more?

Only 4 known ones... but their could be more....

 

[sam04u]

It's part of human nature to hate. If I saw the same person kill each and every one of my loved ones and I had no one left, you cannot expect me to NOT hate this person. It does not necessarily equate to other deeds such as revenge, but hate can be passive, if that was going to be your rebuttal.

Well... you see religion is hard in some ways... if only one person follows it... it has to be a universal thing... so that theres no killing in the first place...
Still.. why would you hate if you had faith that they were in a better place? (Thats called doubt.)

Theres no MARK for being pure of heart... there is a YES and there is NO.... <3
Forgiving is a part of the passive hate you talk about.

 

[davin]

well, first of all actually...what is the particular quote thats relating to planets in particular?

since you used the term "before science knew of another world" but never said what passage said that, i assumed you were talking about the 7 heavens thing when you said 7 worlds... but now you're saying that the 7 worlds thing is really orders of scale, in which case you only give 4 but say taht it proves itself.

you've effectivly created an arguement, with that 7 groups, of "hey, its not ruled out, therefore we're right" which is in no way proof.


and a note.... the greeks thought the stars were just all an equal distance because at that time, they didn't have the technology to measure parallax...but they didn't think that the stars were 100 feet up,, but significantly further, considering some greeks also knew, very roughly, distances to moon and sun. i'd have to delve into some books i've got for more specifics on astronomical views for such time frames

 

[sam04u]

They estimated the distance of the sun? Are you really that stupid? they thought the earth was the center of the universe..... NO one talked about the word orbit until about 14th century this could not have come from humans at that time.. it is impossible... and if you were to claim it was... think about what you are saying... a man who knew that much... would he lie? and make things up?

Orbit
"(God is) the One Who created the night,and day, the sun and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion."

--sura 36, verse 40
1400 years old.

Space Travel;

"O assembly of Jinns and Men, if you can penetrate regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate them! You will not penetrate them save with a Power."
sura 55, verse 33:

Find another biblical reference to space travel.... i challenge you... the word "if" in arabic should not be taken literally. Its a matter of circumstance... like "if you use the toilet close the seat".


Idea of the universe expanding;
"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it."
sura 51, verse 47
(Heavens= whats not in earth its a difficult thing to explain..., no other concept like it and definately not a guess.. it would be impossible at that time, if it was done today sure... but 1400 years ago?)

"The Sun runs its course to a settled place. This is the decree of the All Mighty, the Full of Knowledge."
(The word "Settled-place" means a definate place.... runs its course; The correct translation to common terms would be... phases? this is actually explaining the death of a star...)

Embryology
Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."


"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."[2]

At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]

Theres too many other to gather...(and i cant find the info on the 7 worlds (which would have had a different meaning....)

I challenge you to find a contradiction in the Qur'an...

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I challenge you to find a contradiction in the Qur'an... (like "a flat world" or... "sun revolves around the earth"...)

It's impossible to find contradictions or errors in anything when people will just appeal to a supernatural power or make up wild confabulations to explain it.

Anyway,

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

Read through - I'm sure you'll do for most of them exactly what I said above, as has been demonstrated in the post I'm quoting... but o-well...

 

[sam04u]

You dont get it... im not basing islams credibly on a few of these lines...
but its miracles that defines what is a religion... because faith is all there is too a religion... just follow your religion i'll follow mine... im just helping you understand mine so you dont hate it... or try pull of hijabs of women like i've heard happen 100 of times... (and stopped from happening once with violence)

<3...
believe what you will... but through understanding we erase the xenophobia... which is the fear of the unknown... foreign religions and cultures... thats all i want!

I just want people to understand that we aren't these TERRORISTS with BIG BEARDS and ANGER TOWARDS SOCIETY... with SHORT FUSES.... who belive in OPPRESSING women...

I think you know alot about islam now.. after you've read my posts.. and thats all i was trying to achieve <3

So we can end this now. (thats how you end racism... with TRUE understanding... i even explained the controversial things people sugar-coat.. like Jihad... ok? so now we have peace)

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I think I knew a fair bit about Islam before your post and I don't think your post really revealed anything that amazing either... but I guess its differing perspectives.

 

[davin]

yes the greeks calculated the distance to the sun, because they still knew there was a distance between the two. the only reason a heliocentric system stayed in place was because the greeks assumed that there would be a parallax in stars if the earth was moving instead of the sun, and they couldn't measure such a parallax (the reason just being that it needs more detailed observations than they could make then). however they could still tell the distance to the sun


again, my challenge is to give some element of the qur'an that is scientifically reliable WITHOUT you having to twist it into an interpretation. a passage that is clear.

believe religion from the spirtiual sense all you want, but don't try to desecrate scientific methods that have developed over hundreds of years because you decide to redefine and reinterpret words as you see fit.

 

[SabtheLab]

Thank you. At last a response that doesn't go off the beaten track.

However no, Costello was not refering to social values. Australian's do not care whether you engage in our social values. Going out for a beer after work is not an integral part of being an Australian. Costello was refering to our values regarding the way we treat our neighbours and the way we view Australia. It is petty to think Costello would want to deport Muslims based on the fact they don't drink beer and they don't wear a bikini to the beach.

Nobody is talking about social values. They are not the issue. It is ignorant to think there are no Muslims in Australia who disregard our 'universal values', otherwise they would not be burning the Australian flag. =)
Radical Muslims in the Middle East disregard those same 'universal values' when they go on suicide missions and kill innocent people.

We are not penalising average law abiding Muslims purely because they lead a more conservative life. However, if there are some who truly take offense to the fact that we have a more liberal lifestyle, perhaps Australia was not the best country for them to have migrated to.

in that case, costello's claim is exaggerated and unnecessary. every community has a dissenting element who, im sure we all agree, shouldnt live here if they're not happy, be they muslim or not. I cant see the justification behind costello pointing specifically at muslims apart from propagating a sense of fear and hatred toward muslim in australia.

 

[SabtheLab]

Those are pretty pathetic excuses. I'm sorry how does having a large oil industry prevent research and development? In case you haven't noticed Syria and Jordan don't have big oil deposits and they are still backward, third world shitholes. Meanwhile you have Israel that has no oil but does have massive military spending. Despite that Israel is a center for technology (particuarly IT etc.) and has a GDP per capita that is close to Western Europe. Why's Israel so much more succesful than it's Arab neighbours? For the same reason the Jews continue to outdo muslims in every area of human endeavour.

who even claimed that oil prevented research? if anything the greater economic fluidty should bolster scientific research. but the fact is, most of the profits coming form the oil industry line the pockets of corrupt tyrants that run the middle east. oh and lets not forget american investors.

the average person in the middle east barely has enough to survive on let alone wonder about the potential of quarks in building quantum computers.

and need i remind you banco that israel is in the back pocket of the usa, who happens to be the most economically stable countries in the world? that speaks for itself.

 

[SabtheLab]

i'll only delve into the science debate deep enough to point out that interpretatioon is a matter of perspective and picking up on possible implications in a text. before you go into a spin trying to prove that the scintific interpretations are twisted around to prove a point, id like to remind you that you are making this assumption based on an english translation. such a transaltion has lost most of its meaning and as such you cant make valid interpretations based on this. the interpretations made are done so from the arabic version of the quran. hence it retains its full meaning. some of the scientific verses you read, in the arabic language, due to the dynamics of the language, cannot BE interpreted any other way. in he context of the arabic language, they ARE clear.

 

[sam04u]

[21:30] ...And We made every living thing from water...
[24:45] And Allah has created every animal from water...
(how long ago was it when we learnt about the human composition? 80% water?)

[30:48] It is Allah Who sends the winds, and then they raise clouds: then He spreads them in the sky as He wills and makes them dark, then you see the drops issue from the midst of them...

[24:43] Don't you see how Allah drives clouds with force, then joins them together, then makes them into a heap? - then you see the drops issue from the midst of them. And He sends down from the sky mountains (of clouds) wherein is hail: He strikes therewith whom He pleases and He turns it away from whom He pleases. The flash of His lightning well-nigh snatches away the sight.

The two verses are describing the stages in the formation of rain clouds, which is in turn a stage in the water cycle. A close examination of these two verses suggests that they make reference to two different phenomena, one of "spreading" the clouds and the other of "joining" them together, two different processes by which rain clouds might be formed.

Modern meteorology has come to this very conclusion within the last two centuries.


[23:14] ...We made the drop into an ALAQAH (leech-like structure), and then We changed the ALAQAH into a MUDGHAH (chewed-like substance), then We changed the MUDGHAH into IDHAAM (bones, skeleton), then We clothed the IDHAAM with LAHM (flesh, muscles), then We caused him to grow and come into being as another creation.
[22:5] ...We created you out of dust, then out of a drop, then out of a MUDGHAH, partly formed and partly unformed...
[71:14] ...seeing that it is He (Allah) Who has created you in stages...

(the idea of an alaqah- leech like structure was only fully understood very recently... with light telescopes... prior to that no-one knew of such things. The believe in that century was that... man was created in an instance... not stages...)

Of all the references in the Qur'an to scientific matters, the most numerous are on the creation and structure of the universe and the earth. This area is singled out in several verses like the one below as an example of Allah's creative power:

[45:3] Verily, in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe


a verse which makes a small note regarding the age of mankind with respect to the universe:

[76:1] Has there not been over Man a long period of Time when he was not yet a thing thought of?

[50:38] And We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six days, and nothing touched us of weariness.
(notice ALL IN BETWEEN them... now you might start asking questions about 6 days... i'll elaborate.)

[22:47] And yet they ask you to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His promise. Verily a Day in the sight of your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

[32:5] He (Allah) directs (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him on a Day the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.

[70:4] The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a Day the space whereof is (as) fifty thousand years.

A day to you is different...(and still no contradictions to science... it is explained)

[21:30] Don't those who reject faith see that the heavens and the earth were a single entity then We ripped them apart?... (The big bang)

[41:11] Moreover, He applied His design to the heavens, while it was (yet) vapor,and He said to it and to the earth, "Come (into being), willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We do come in obedience."
(Vapour... hydrogen gas... formation of nebula >.<, science says it was designed... even through big bang and evolution... there is still a design unknown...)

[25:61] Blessed is He Who put in the heavens constellations, and put in it a lamp and a light-giving moon.
(untill what? 19th century... people thought the moon gave light...? explanation... lamp being the sun... which shines on the moon.. it doesnt MAKE light... >_<)

[51:47] And the heavens We did create with Our Hands, and We do cause it to expand.
(univere expanding-only discovered in the time of doppler)

[42:29] And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the living creatures that He has scattered through both of them... (SCATTERED throughout the heavens... meaning there is alien life according to the qur'an)

[45:13] And He has subjected to you (man), from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: behold, in that are signs indeed for those who reflect. (theres signs of this on earth... he wants us to think... and find them....)
Im not finding any other evidence... no one wants to believe it when its SOO straigh forward... yet SOOO many people believe the da-vinci code? (which is retarded) >.<

Whatever... these should LITTLE or NO ambiguity... besides I DONT WANT YOU TO BE MUSLIM I DONT CAREE iF YOU BELIEVE IT....

Just stop being negative towards my religion you racist, xenophobic, idiotic, narrow-minded TOOL!
(enough... a persons religion is no one elses business... its between them and their god... now stop... discussing mine... i wouldnt care if you worshipped an empty can of sunkist... seriously...)

 

[Not-That-Bright]

[21:30] ...And We made every living thing from water...
[24:45] And Allah has created every animal from water...
(how long ago was it when we learnt about the human composition? 80% water?)

But that doesn't say 'humans are 80% water' it says that every living thing is made from water, which I imagine is some sort of pagan belief but you can see where it comes from quite easily... all creatures drink water.

[30:48] It is Allah Who sends the winds, and then they raise clouds: then He spreads them in the sky as He wills and makes them dark, then you see the drops issue from the midst of them...

Any observer could have said this.

[24:43] Don't you see how Allah drives clouds with force, then joins them together, then makes them into a heap? - then you see the drops issue from the midst of them. And He sends down from the sky mountains (of clouds) wherein is hail: He strikes therewith whom He pleases and He turns it away from whom He pleases. The flash of His lightning well-nigh snatches away the sight.

You can see the clouds moving together and moving apart - it's a simple observation - it does not explain how the clouds actually work it just makes observations that anyone could make.

See here's the thing... you take these verses, which as far as I can tell only describe what any observer looking up at the clouds could see, then use it to claim it explains the process in which rain is made.

[23:14] ...We made the drop into an ALAQAH (leech-like structure), and then We changed the ALAQAH into a MUDGHAH (chewed-like substance), then We changed the MUDGHAH into IDHAAM (bones, skeleton), then We clothed the IDHAAM with LAHM (flesh, muscles), then We caused him to grow and come into being as another creation.
[22:5] ...We created you out of dust, then out of a drop, then out of a MUDGHAH, partly formed and partly unformed...
[71:14] ...seeing that it is He (Allah) Who has created you in stages...

First of all I'd like to see the entire verses because you know... taking a few words out isn't all that impressive. Also, if allah wanted to explain to us how we came about, why would he do it in a few unrelated sentences in different parts of the koran?

I just find it interesting how those verses have been edited and positioned together to make it appear although it's one coherant statement.

(the idea of an alaqah- leech like structure was only fully understood very recently... with light telescopes... prior to that no-one knew of such things. The believe in that century was that... man was created in an instance... not stages...)

Leech like structure? eh i'm pretty sure we knew about leeches before, but if you're for whatever reason trying to take that leech-like thing that is described, then attach that description to something discovered... go ahead but It doesn't work for me

The believe in that century was that... man was created in an instance... not stages...

So Muslims believe in Evolution? Is that what you're suggesting? This is very new to me because I've argued with muslims over evolution before...

[45:3] Verily, in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe

You can find 'signs' in anything if you go looking hard enough, humans have a good mind for this sort of thing, that's why there's women who are worshipping doors that they claim have the eyes of jesus in them and people flocking to see a piece of cheese-toast with an etching of 'mother mary' on it lol

Verily a Day in the sight of your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

Six Thousand years still is no where long enough... but you know.

A day to you is different...(and still no contradictions to science... it is explained)

It doesn't just say a day to me is different, for once it's actually quite specific and says 'like a thousand years' - so give or take a few thousand years (due to the like) I'd say this is still saying the universe is at least >100,000 years old.

[21:30] Don't those who reject faith see that the heavens and the earth were a single entity then We ripped them apart?... (The big bang)

Um no... the big bang works off natural powers that we understand, but if you want to throw in this supernatural being I guess you can.

Vapour... hydrogen gas... formation of nebula >.<, science says it was designed... even through big bang and evolution... there is still a design unknown...)

Science does not say it was 'intelligently designed' in fact that theory has been thrown out by all reputable scientific journals. If there is a 'design' in for instance, life, it's the result of evolution... things have evolved to survive, and as such they have been designed in a sort of 'bottom-up' fashion.

[42:29] And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the living creatures that He has scattered through both of them... (SCATTERED throughout the heavens... meaning there is alien life according to the qur'an)

How do we know that heavens doesn't mean 'sky' ? Or doesn't mean the afterlife?

[45:13] And He has subjected to you (man), from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: behold, in that are signs indeed for those who reflect. (theres signs of this on earth... he wants us to think... and find them....)

^refer to my earlier point on 'signs'.

Im not finding any other evidence... no one wants to believe it when its SOO straigh forward... yet SOOO many people believe the da-vinci code? (which is retarded) >.<

It's not straight forward - I provided a large list of contradictions and problems from a website, did you check them out? They were taking the 'straight forward' approach also I am sure.

Whatever... these should LITTLE or NO ambiguity... besides I DONT WANT YOU TO BE MUSLIM I DONT CAREE iF YOU BELIEVE IT....

They do leave ambiguity, also is saying 'I don't want you to be muslim' basically saying 'I want you to go to hell' - I think it is

ust stop being negative towards my religion you racist, xenophobic, idiotic, narrow-minded TOOL!

I'm negative to all religions because I've found them all to be illogical.

(enough... a persons religion is no one elses business... its between them and their god... now stop... discussing mine... i wouldnt care if you worshipped an empty can of sunkist... seriously...)

A persons religion is no one elses business if it doesn't affect other people, I'm afraid I feel your religion is doing bad things in the world so it should be argued against it - as for me arguing personally against you, I'll only do that if you've brought up some contentious point that I feel needs to be challenged.

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Now, a general comment on these 'predictions'.

- Don't you think it's odd that all of the science in these predictions is not found until science has already discovered it using other means? I mean being able to find predictions after the fact is not that hard, especially when you use scrupulous interpretation techniques to a fairly vague text... merging verses together etc... this is what the Nostradamus people do, and I'm sure you don't believe in his predictions.

Reply please.

 

[davin]

His book, "Āryabhatīya", presented astronomical and mathematical theories in which the Earth was taken to be spinning on its axis and the periods of the planets were given with respect to the sun (in other words, it was heliocentric).He believes that the Moon and planets shine by reflected sunlight and he believes that the orbits of the planets are ellipses. He correctly explains the causes of eclipses of the Sun and the Moon.

Aryabhata lived in India (476-550) and had believed that moonlight was reflected sunlight

here's why it makes a difference, is you're DIRECTLY descrating scince with an attitude that such claims are scientific. They're not. Its in no way racism or xenophobia, as I don't CARE what religion is claiming their text is scientifically accurate (and they all do), be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.

[32:5] He (Allah) directs (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him on a Day the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.

[70:4] The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a Day the space whereof is (as) fifty thousand years.

right there you have two seperate years for the same quality.


like i believe i said earlier, if its being viewed as a spiritual guide, i will not criticise religion heavily, normally, but you're trying to claim that it is also scientific proof.

 

[sam04u]

Okay how about you look into the first few stages of embryology, you will see that the human fetus at 6-8 weeks resembles a leech, as it looks like one, has a tail and "sucks blood" from the inside of the mother like a leech. And the other stages are explained too, most of which wasn't discovered untill very recently. They did not know these things at that time... and im NOT interpreting it to benefit my claim... its right there if you had common sense you would believe it.

You claim about pagan science is just as stupid... provide some evidence that they said that humans and animals are "made" meaning they consist mainly of water... there is no other source... such information wasnt discovered until very recently and in no way would have been known by one poor man in the 7th century who tended cattle if he wasnt told by a supernatural being.

He strikes therewith whom He pleases and He turns it away from whom He pleases.
This line here is one of significance recently as it has been discovered by meteorologists that a rain cloud can be triggered to rain... however it is discovered that the path in which it takes can never be changed only where the clouds already exist.

Um no... the big bang works off natural powers that we understand, but if you want to throw in this supernatural being I guess you can.

NOBODY understand the idea of the big bang... all that is proven is that at one stage everything was in one place, since the universe is expanding we assume this... the only reference of the UNIVERSE/SPACE/HEAVENS being "one" is the reference to it in the Qur'an untill such ideas were discovered by doppler. So dont go and make these inane idiotic STUPID conclusions. IF you read into it you will see the significance... it is saying the universe expanded... it was RIPPED like an explosion....
Its funny... you atheists... its right there! in your face! but because you dont want to believe in religion you deny it.

[21:30] Don't those who reject faith see that the heavens and the earth were a single entity then We ripped them apart?...

Its talking to you! you reject faith! you believe science! its telling you... DAVIN you noob! look im telling you! and yet you're blind to it....

Science does not say it was 'intelligently designed' in fact that theory has been thrown out by all reputable scientific journals. If there is a 'design' in for instance, life, it's the result of evolution... things have evolved to survive, and as such they have been designed in a sort of 'bottom-up' fashion.

Science does say it was intelligently designed... the universe is a creation... not a matter of circumstance... science explains WHAT happened.. not how....

[42:29] And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the living creatures that He has scattered through both of them...

How do we know that heavens doesn't mean 'sky' ? Or doesn't mean the afterlife?

Because it sais the "heavens" and the earth. And in the qur'an nothing is in "heaven- which has a different name then the one it refers to it is called JANI" That heaven means space... as was used by the greeks... that you love so dearly... they say IN THE HEAVENS!
Space is relatively recent term to describe.... whats not on earth.... lol... heavens...

[45:13] And He has subjected to you (man), from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: behold, in that are signs indeed for those who reflect. (theres signs of this on earth... he wants us to think... and find them....)

^refer to my earlier point on 'signs'.

That is the challenge of allah for you to discover what is not known... and as of yet not scientific information has been rejected by islam... if we get into other religions... there has been milions... eg; "evolution", "heliocentric universe" etc etc...

and now these religions who supposedly have FAITH try to discredit islam? its a trick....

They do leave ambiguity, also is saying 'I don't want you to be muslim' basically saying 'I want you to go to hell' - I think it is

If you took your head out of your ass you would see that i explained all those who are pure of heart will go to heaven regardless of religion... according to islam... so your religion has no significance to the person of islam... just your purity...

I dont want to impose my beliefs on you... but i dont want you to discredit islam... anyone knows that opressed people act radically... look at for example... the african americans who live in slums? some of them resort to killing, drug dealing etc.
Theres plenty of other examples... and the truth is to an extent America is oppressing these middle eastern countries... stopping access of trade to them.. making it "illegal" for them to produce weapons to defend their country.... "taking" palestine of the palestinians and giving it to the jewish people... and calling it israel... "WHICH IS THE GREATEST INJUSTICE" done to a group of people since the [Ghettos of Germany and Austria where jewish people suffered...]

Now if that isnt enough... the Jewish army shoots at the palestinians who have no weapons and bulldozes any good house they see.... or shoot it with the people still in it.

While the Americans support israel... with money and weaponry...
Also america secretly spiralled the iraq/iran war... and sold both countires weaponry so that they would kill each other... they overpriced the weapons and took payment with oil...

So YES maybe SOME muslims are a bit IRRATIONAL and target the americans and people who support the american actions (Britian... unfortunately)
But this DOES NOT reflect all muslim people... most of us are nice peaceful people...
why would you question a religion with moral and peaceful and family values?
Because you are an atheist jack-ass who listens to the media and is easily influenced...

Now some other "interesting" things the media blows up...
the 2 Australian Gang Rapings?

Which happened 3-4 years ago? and all of the people involved got sentenced to over 35 years?

Or the incident where a group of men attacked a life guard who they overheard say "those fucking lebos" even if they werent referring to them...?

Thats about 20 people.. these people do not reflect the odd.. 2 million muslims in australia who abide with the laws... have a sense of nationalism and pay taxes...

The media has a way of twisting information...


I just hope you understand that... (maybe i shouldn't have mentioned all those things... because i bet a media-whore like yourself would have STRONG media formed opinions on all 5 of the current media hyped stories...

Ofcourse as always you have NO evidence NO proof NO statistics...

Just a bunch of assumptions and a "I hate you attidude"... caused by the media...

[Dont respond to this post untill you have read my posts on the last 2 pages where i thoroughly explain WHAT it constitutes to be islam and alot of our moral and religious beliefs... because i know im going to be flamed by media hyped imbeciles with little irefutable evidence from a non-biased source....]

 

[davin]

again, explain to me why the qur'an, then, defines a 'day' as both 10,000 and 50,000 years? and how either of those represents the formation of the earth when you look at 6 of those 'days'?

why am i to favour this over those taht say the bible is scientifically right, or that Nostradomus actually predicted the future?

example....the water cycle has been talked about....but, the old testament already covered it....even though the quotes from the Qur'an don't address evaporation, this sourced from the book of the Prophet Amos "He who made the Pleiades and Orion, who turns blackness into dawn and darkens day into night, who (1) calls for the waters of the sea and (3) pours them out over the face of the land - the Lord is his name. "



specifically with some of your claims.....some of the greeks did have theories about the universe all coming from one thing.... Anaximander had something that could be interpretted as that, for example. Of course, I could also add that Doppler effect has nothing to do with the expansion of the universe (it relies on velocity, which is not involved in the universe's expansion) and secondly, the most conclusive proof of the universe expanding was from Hubble, not from Doppler.

thus far, many of your claims about real science have been unclear at best, and innaccurate at worst.