Israel and Palestine (1 Viewer)

[banco55]

Re: Israel & Palestine

This might work out not so bad for Fatah. Hamas will have no funds to do anything in Gaza and find governing is a lot harder then throwing tied up people out of windows. The sugar daddies (EU, US) won't give them shit. Meanwhile US and EU will kick in a lot of money for the West Bank.

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

“Um Clearly you didnt understand my post...i said IF the Jew thinks money solves EVERYTHING thing...”

By saying you and I, you were implying that you agreed with that statement…

“Well duh you buy lands to live there [..but the Jews came unwelcome, and if that's called Racism then too bad because it exist it other countries. Also your sentence dont make sense, what are you trying to argue.”

Just because other countries do it, and it exists, doesn’t make it right… My sentence does make sense, go back and read it again.

“Well clearly if you cant read then perhaps this would have been better: "bias"”

An ad hominem will not help your case because clearly I can read.

“Well the sources are very bias for a start....rofl so according to you just because you think the source is good then it must be good? IF by any chance your source was reliable/credibile then you wouldnt have a bandwagon of people complaining about your sources..but if it wasnt then that might just be the case (which is the situation).”

So all you’re saying is that it is bias because you think so??? Aren’t you gonna offer proof? Come on stating something and not backing it up is something that belongs in primary school.

“I disagree with the the fairand square land 'buying', more liek a land grab.
Also not all wars were started by the Arabs.”

Whatever… There is clear evidence that I have posted that shows otherwise. As for the war part, name one (I am talking about the Arab Israeli Conflict here).

“Read back to my post if you still dont get it. THE PALESTINIANS DONT WANT A PEACE TREATy BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR GOD DAMN LANDS STOLEN.”

Read back to my original post of the Jews buying the land.

“So what makes you think the Isrealies will have Peace?”

Oh boy, now that is too easy, Ehud Barak offered 96% of the West Bank for peace, Sharon gave up the Gaza Strip so that the Palestinians could have an autonomous state, after the 6-day war Israel offered to give back captured territory for peace but was rebuffed with the 3 no’s, in 1948 Israel accepted a state alongside the Palestinians, Israel has made peace overturns with Jordan and Egypt and was successful.

This answer your question?

“Dude why the fuck would they want to recognise Israel, and as for the terror remark, that's just another way to fight Israel to get their land back. Moreover, it has been proven countless time by others on this thread that Israel is jsut as guilty in regard to their act, also constituded as 'terrorist action'.”

Because Israel is a legitimate country, because the only way to negotiate with a country during a conflict is to recognise it first, because it is a major stumbling block to the peace process, because doing so will save possibly thousands of innocent lives…Need I go on, or do you get the point?

 

[sam04u]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Just because you are dirt poor and dont have money like jews does not mean being being rich and powerful is bad. Jews work hard to get rich while your kind rob banks and sell dope to get rich. (insert Mokbel here)

You're a tool, jump of a bridge.

Whether arabs welcome jews or not, they will be there, forever, as they had been since 3000 years ago

Nobody has argued that, good job attacking a straw person.

before there was an arab in israel or palestine. Jews have undisputed rights over israel from God, from UN, from Britain and by birth.

Yes, good job again attacking a straw person. Firstly, nobody argued whether Jews born in Israel had a right to be there. But the previous generations that came from "Europe" which makes up the majority of Israeli-Jews. Had no right to displace the Palestinians. (Who had the exact same rights.) Contrary to what you may believe, Britain has no right neither does Israel to annex land which it was "holding" in war. Unless ofcourse U.N resolutions only concern you when they are "For" Israel and not when they are "Against" Israel.

Has Israel met the "mandatory" conditions to the land? Have they followed that UN resolution which you mention which gives them a right? Have they kept to the 55% of the state initially given to them? Have they compensated the Palestinians who have lost their homes?

All the answers to those questions are NO.

No, palestinians dont want peace treaty

Yasser Arafat helped form the Oslo agreement at much expense to the Palestinians. (They followed him though.) But who was it that killed the Israeli-Jew Prime Minister? That was the event that ended the agreement and made peace treaties with Israel impossible. They continue to annex and hold Palestinian land with expansionist foreign policy.

because they are filled with greed and hatred against jews.

Are you a complete moron? A minute ago you said it's fine to be rich and greedy. (Which you associated with Jews) now you're saying the Palestinians who have lost their aid because of their democracy, are greedy? You are a moron. Secondly, do you blame them? Their country was stolen from them by Jews. (Regardless of whether all Jews were in on it. Contrary to what people like you want us to believe, Zionist does not equal Jew.)

They do not have their lands stolen

Yes they do.

they lost it in a series of wars started by arabs agression of israel.

You really are a tool. Israel began the agression with its illegal occupation of Palestine. (Like Iraq with Kuwait, etc etc.) Would the U.N coallition back then be considered as an agression? Also, you can't annex land controlled in wars. Read the U.N resolutions which you seem to selectively agree with.

From herein your argument continues with logical fallacies and double standards. Grow up, get a life and quit trolling.

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870794.html

26 dead as Hamas tightens its grip on Gaza

"Before noon, two civilians were killed during a protest held in Gaza City under the banner “Stop the Killing.” Some 1,000 Palestinians marched in the city, calling for an end to the fighting, but when they approached a Hamas position, militants fired at the protesters, killing two."

Imagine the sustained outrage that would pour out of the media if Israel had done something like this. But Hamas murders peaceful demonstrators, and it doesn’t even rate a footnote in the wire service reports.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1181813073418&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

BTW in regards to the situation in 'the tunnel', at least Israel is starting to help those who have never bothered with helping it...

"The High Court of Justice instructed the State Attorney's Office on Tuesday night that "everything Israel can do to save human life must be done today," following a petition submitted by "Doctors for Human Rights" and "Gisha" that Erez Crossing be opened immediately to allow sick and wounded Gazans into Israel. The High Court decided that a panel of three judges would rule on the matter Wednesday in an emergency hearing and demanded that until then, the State Attorney's Office respond to Tuesday's ruling in place of the IDF.

In addition to those hurt in the recent Palestinian factional fighting, the IDF decided to evacuate those seriously wounded in Monday's flare-up at Erez. Initially, 12 Palestinians were approved for entry into Israel, but after examinations by an Israeli medical team, only two were found to be in critical condition, warranting immediate transfer to Israeli hospitals. Senior defense officials said the IDF would continue to provide humanitarian assistance to the Palestinians on a "case-by-case basis" but did not plan to completely open the Erez Crossing and allow all of those holed up inside to cross into Israel. In addition to sending the women and children from the crossing to Egypt, Israel is considering allowing a group of Fatah operatives who have already fled to Egypt to enter the West Bank via Jordan."

 

[banco55]

Re: Israel & Palestine

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870794.html

26 dead as Hamas tightens its grip on Gaza

"Before noon, two civilians were killed during a protest held in Gaza City under the banner “Stop the Killing.” Some 1,000 Palestinians marched in the city, calling for an end to the fighting, but when they approached a Hamas position, militants fired at the protesters, killing two."

Imagine the sustained outrage that would pour out of the media if Israel had done something like this. But Hamas murders peaceful demonstrators, and it doesn’t even rate a footnote in the wire service reports.

I'm glad to see that Hamas has such respect for liberal values. How long before they start goosestepping?

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

But who was it that killed the Israeli-Jew Prime Minister?

In Israel, you're not just the Israeli Prime Minister, you are the Israeli-JEW Prime Minister. What is that backwards-alphabetic order or order of dislike.

Wait, what if the Prime Minister is Israeli Zionist and Jewish. Is he now the Zionist-Israeli-Jew Prime Minister.

I dont really like wearing suits but that Prime Minister was always wearing them so I'm just gonna call him the suit-wearing-Zionist-Israeli-Jew Prime Minister because UNLESS I tell you that, I haven't PROVED anything.

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

In Israel, you're not just the Israeli Prime Minister, you are the Israeli-JEW Prime Minister. What is that backwards-alphabetic order or order of dislike.

Wait, what if the Prime Minister is Israeli Zionist and Jewish. Is he now the Zionist-Israeli-Jew Prime Minister.

I dont really like wearing suits but that Prime Minister was always wearing them so I'm just gonna call him the suit-wearing-Zionist-Israeli-Jew Prime Minister because UNLESS I tell you that, I haven't PROVED anything.

Basically what nathan71088 is trying to say is don't put labels on people because it muddles the situation.

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

No, palestinians dont want peace treaty because they are filled with greed and hatred against jews.

Much like your hatred towards arabs.

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Basically what nathan71088 is trying to say is don't put labels on people because it muddles the situation.

Quoted For Truth.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

Re: Israel & Palestine

You're a tool, jump of a bridge.


Nobody has argued that, good job attacking a straw person.


Yes, good job again attacking a straw person. Firstly, nobody argued whether Jews born in Israel had a right to be there. But the previous generations that came from "Europe" which makes up the majority of Israeli-Jews. Had no right to displace the Palestinians. (Who had the exact same rights.) Contrary to what you may believe, Britain has no right neither does Israel to annex land which it was "holding" in war. Unless ofcourse U.N resolutions only concern you when they are "For" Israel and not when they are "Against" Israel.

Jews who came from Europe or America or India or Iran have the right to live in Israel. After all Israel was specifically created by United Nation for jews. Palestine was created for Arabs.

Has Israel met the "mandatory" conditions to the land? Have they followed that UN resolution which you mention which gives them a right? Have they kept to the 55% of the state initially given to them? Have they compensated the Palestinians who have lost their homes?

All the answers to those questions are NO.

Yes Israel met all terms and conditions attached to UN partition plan and accepted it whole heartedly. They kept 55% of the land and they got more lands after Arabs countries invaded Israel in 1948 and afterwards. Everytime you invaded Israel, you lose lands. You deserve it because you are the aggressor, who always start wars.

Read this.
No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State (by a Jew in the Arab State)(4) shall be allowed except for public purposes. In all cases of expropriation full compensation as fixed by the Supreme Court shall be said previous to dispossession. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

Remember that Arabs have the duty to compensate jews if you want arabs to be compensated. Until then fuk off.

Yasser Arafat helped form the Oslo agreement at much expense to the Palestinians. (They followed him though.) But who was it that killed the Israeli-Jew Prime Minister? That was the event that ended the agreement and made peace treaties with Israel impossible. They continue to annex and hold Palestinian land with expansionist foreign policy.

Expense of Palestinian? What did it cost to palestinian by oslo agreement? They gained everything at the expense of Israel, they gained authority, autonomy, self governance, peace, aid, recognition, territories. Israel only got peace, temporarily. It was arabs who started rioting and killings NOT israelis, which effectively put back the relationship into chaos.

Are you a complete moron? A minute ago you said it's fine to be rich and greedy. (Which you associated with Jews) now you're saying the Palestinians who have lost their aid because of their democracy, are greedy? You are a moron. Secondly, do you blame them? Their country was stolen from them by Jews. (Regardless of whether all Jews were in on it. Contrary to what people like you want us to believe, Zionist does not equal Jew.)

No, I did not said it is fine to be greedy, It is fine to be RICH. And not all rich people are greedy, in fact poor people are just as greedy as the rich, just look at yourself. I said Arabs lost their land because of their greed, that they wanted Palestine and Israel all for themselves. Israel was perfectly happy with just 55% of the land most of them waste barren desert in the south. However, greedy arabs wanted it all and needles to say launched various wars during the past 50 years to get all lands. They failed, you lose. It was NOT stolen, you lose, fair and square, in free fair fight.

You really are a tool. Israel began the agression with its illegal occupation of Palestine. (Like Iraq with Kuwait, etc etc.) Would the U.N coallition back then be considered as an agression? Also, you can't annex land controlled in wars. Read the U.N resolutions which you seem to selectively agree with.

No, it was Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt etc that declared WAR on Israel, not the other way around. Israel was only defending itself from annihilation, it just want to be there in the land assigned to them by the UN and amazingly won various victories against arabs. And yes, Israel can annex lands gained from wars until peace treaty are signed, even so it does not have to return all lands unless it is willing to do so.

I saw many palestinians queing at the border trying to flee Gaza, apparenly they don't like Islamic Terrorists Hamas.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

now that fatah is leaving gaza, and we have tens of thousands of displaced palestinian people, does HAMAS have to grant them the right of return?

think about it.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Yes, good job again attacking a straw person. Firstly, nobody argued whether Jews born in Israel had a right to be there. But the previous generations that came from "Europe" which makes up the majority of Israeli-Jews. Had no right to displace the Palestinians. (Who had the exact same rights.) Contrary to what you may believe, Britain has no right neither does Israel to annex land which it was "holding" in war. Unless ofcourse U.N resolutions only concern you when they are "For" Israel and not when they are "Against" Israel.

Has Israel met the "mandatory" conditions to the land? Have they followed that UN resolution which you mention which gives them a right? Have they kept to the 55% of the state initially given to them? Have they compensated the Palestinians who have lost their homes?

All the answers to those questions are NO.

I understand and acknowledge where you are coming from here. Your argument is that the creation of Israel put a non-Arabic government over land Arabs were living on. Israelis bought that land. You have clearly disagreed with this a number of times but I often wonder how those straight out of the Holocaust could suppress those already living there but lets put this as a point of contention. You argue that what Israel has done is morally wrong but considering you are all for morals please recognise that AT THE TIME the Jews really needed a place where they could feel safe (considering they had felt safe in Germany and look how that turned out). So considering that you believe Israel was immoral I believe that you, as one for moral actions, would be having an inner conflict because you know that you wouldn't want to turn away war refugees and survivors but you also wouldn't want to establish a state different to the one that those who had been living there, who had been also promised a state, had wanted.

So putting aside this inner conflict of yours and that there is a contentious point about buying or stealing land we will now enter the real non-idealistic , dystopic world that we DO live in.

There was a vote in 1948 where 33 vountries voted for Israel's establishment, 10 abstained and 13 voted against it's establishment. Whether land had been bought or stolen did not matter because it was now Israel's land and they could distribute it as they saw fit just as any other country does. That is the legality of it. Morals aside that is what has happened and that is what is legal.

If there was a new vote and all countries voted for the establishment of Palestine and Palestine took over Israel's land I would be pissed but moral's aside, that's how democracy works.

It is good to see you arguing for equality in life and I hope you continue to do so but, do not delude yourself that your accusations against Israel's creation are on a legal basis.

Some things you just have to accept and no matter how many articles you post up, until you change history, you have no basis to criticise Israel's creation.

 

[banco55]

Re: Israel & Palestine

I understand and acknowledge where you are coming from here. Your argument is that the creation of Israel put a non-Arabic government over land Arabs were living on. Israelis bought that land. You have clearly disagreed with this a number of times but I often wonder how those straight out of the Holocaust could suppress those already living there but lets put this as a point of contention. You argue that what Israel has done is morally wrong but considering you are all for morals please recognise that AT THE TIME the Jews really needed a place where they could feel safe (considering they had felt safe in Germany and look how that turned out). So considering that you believe Israel was immoral I believe that you, as one for moral actions, would be having an inner conflict because you know that you wouldn't want to turn away war refugees and survivors but you also wouldn't want to establish a state different to the one that those who had been living there, who had been also promised a state, had wanted.
.

A couple of things you said are simply factually wrong. The Jewish settlers did not buy all the land that became Israel following the 1948 war. I'm not sure if by "suppress" you mean drive out. The Jewish settlers were simply better at conventional warfare as they proved to be in every other war the arabs fought against them.

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Some things you just have to accept and no matter how many articles you post up, until you change history, you have no basis to criticise Israel's creation.

Good post in general, but i have to say that the particular point mentioned above is quite arguable. The basis for the citicism of Israel's creation is morally grounded in the sense that you've effectively kicked out a people and reduced them to conditions considered to be that of a third-world country.

There is a basis, but you have established that there is no legal grounds to criticise the creation of Israel. Then again, the law does not always grant equality, and it does not always grant justice, which is why laws change all the time. Thus, the basic notion of "the law is the law" cannot apply to a case such as this alone.

Sam04u's disagreement with the creation of Israel lies with the moral grounds of the particular situation. Besides, whats wrong with the U.S? I would assume the Jewish people to be quite safe there to be honest.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

A couple of things you said are simply factually wrong. The Jewish settlers did not buy all the land that became Israel following the 1948 war. I'm not sure if by "suppress" you mean drive out. The Jewish settlers were simply better at conventional warfare as they proved to be in every other war the arabs fought against them.

As I stated this is not really a point of contention considering that the land legally became Israel's via the vote. My understanding is that much land was bought for Israel by such people as Baron Rothschild and the establishment of the JNF was for this purpose.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Good post in general, but i have to say that the particular point mentioned above is quite arguable. The basis for the citicism of Israel's creation is morally grounded in the sense that you've effectively kicked out a people and reduced them to conditions considered to be that of a third-world country.

There is a basis, but you have established that there is no legal grounds to criticise the creation of Israel. Then again, the law does not always grant equality, and it does not always grant justice, which is why laws change all the time. Thus, the basic notion of "the law is the law" cannot apply to a case such as this alone.

Sam04u's disagreement with the creation of Israel lies with the moral grounds of the particular situation. Besides, whats wrong with the U.S? I would assume the Jewish people to be quite safe there to be honest.

I understand and already knew that many people have a moral problem with Israel. That's why it frustrates me when they try to masquerade moral problems under a veil of legal concern.


I was under the impression that we tried to discuss facts here. All those with moral issues will recognise that a moral issue is an opinion and is based upon societal norms i.e. I have a problem with public executions but I hear they were quite popular with the public in the middle ages.

If you wish to discuss morals then discuss morals but be truthful and have integrity to facts when you make claims against Israel.

Take heed though, you cannot prove an opinion, hence it is an opinion, therefore if you wish to discuss the murderous status of Israel, please leave your sources at home because they don't constitute evidence for your cause.

 

[banco55]

Re: Israel & Palestine

As I stated this is not really a point of contention considering that the land legally became Israel's via the vote. My understanding is that much land was bought for Israel by such people as Baron Rothschild and the establishment of the JNF was for this purpose.

A large amount of land was bought but it wasn't contiguous. By the way I think how much land they owned in say 1947 is largely irrelevant. If I have freehold title to land in Australia I can't plant my flag and declare it to be sovereign land. For that matter even if I have freehold land the government of Australia can still compulsorily acquire the land.


They were actually voted in the UN a much smaller piece of land and then the 1948 war happened and they acquired much of the pre 1967 land through conquest.

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

therefore if you wish to discuss the murderous status of Israel, please leave your sources at home because they don't constitute evidence for your cause.

"The Murderous state of Israel", ay? If you believe that to be my opinion of Israel, then you're wrong in that regard.

My opinon in this discussion is neutral. That is, i maintain a belief that the extremists of both parties relating to the conflict are to blame.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Hamas responds in the New York Times.
LINK
What Hamas Wants

By AHMED YOUSEF
Published: June 20, 2007

Gaza City

THE events in Gaza over the last few days have been described in the West as a coup. In essence, they have been the opposite. Eighteen months ago, our Hamas Party won the Palestinian parliamentary elections and entered office under Prime Minister Ismail Haniya but never received the handover of real power from Fatah, the losing party. The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, has now tried to replace the winning Hamas government with one of his own, returning Fatah to power while many of our elected members of Parliament languish in Israeli jails. That is the real coup.

From the day Hamas won the general elections in 2006 it offered Fatah the chance of joining forces and forming a unity government. It tried to engage the international community to explain its platform for peace. It has consistently offered a 10-year cease-fire with the Israelis to try to create an atmosphere of calm in which we resolve our differences. Hamas even adhered to a unilateral cease-fire for 18 months in an effort to normalize the situation on the ground. None of these points appear to have been recognized in the press coverage of the last few days.

Nor has it been evident to many people in the West that the civil unrest in Gaza and the West Bank has been precipitated by the American and Israeli policy of arming elements of the Fatah opposition who want to attack Hamas and force us from office. For 18 months we have tried to find ways to coexist with Fatah, entering into a unity government, even conceding key positions in the cabinet to their and international demands, negotiating up until the last moment to try to provide security for all of our people on the streets of Gaza.

Sadly, it became apparent that not all officials from Fatah were negotiating in good faith. There were attempts on Mr. Haniya’s life last week, and eventually we were forced into trying to take control of a very dangerous situation in order to provide political stability and establish law and order.

The streets of Gaza are now calm for the first time in a very long time. We have begun disarming some of the drug dealers and the armed gangs and we hope to restore a sense of security and safety to the citizens of Gaza. We want to get children back to school, get basic services functioning again, and provide long-term economic gains for our people.

Our stated aim when we won the election was to effect reform, end corruption and bring economic prosperity to our people. Our sole focus is Palestinian rights and good governance. We now hope to create a climate of peace and tranquillity within our community that will pave the way for an end to internal strife and bring about the release of the British journalist Alan Johnston, whose kidnapping in March by non-Hamas members is a stain on the reputation of the Palestinian people.

We reject attempts to divide Palestine into two parts and to pass Hamas off as an extreme and dangerous force. We continue to believe that there is still a chance to establish a long-term truce. But this will not happen unless the international community fully engages with Hamas.

Any further attempts to marginalize us, starve our people into submission or attack us militarily will prove that the United States and Israeli governments are not genuinely interested in seeing an end to the violence. Dispassionate observers over the next few weeks will be able to make up their own minds as to each side’s true intentions.

Ahmed Yousef is the political adviser to Ismail Haniya, who became the Palestinian prime minister last year.

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

"It has consistently offered a 10-year cease-fire with the Israelis to try to create an atmosphere of calm in which we resolve our differences. Hamas even adhered to a unilateral cease-fire for 18 months in an effort to normalize the situation on the ground. None of these points appear to have been recognized in the press coverage of the last few days."

It has offered a hudna, hardly a peace agreement, in return for land! Forget that, promises that can be broke in return for land is never a good deal, no wonder Israel rejected it. As to the cease-fire, lol, they broke it so often it wasn't funny, what about that women killed in Sderot? What about continually launching rockets into Israel? That is not a ceasefire. Anyother country would consider that an act of war.