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Immigrants and the Australian Identity (2 Viewers)

Do you consider yourself as an Australian???

  • Yes

    Votes: 54 83.1%
  • No

    Votes: 11 16.9%

  • Total voters
    65

erawamai

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katie_tully said:
I still do not comprehend your train of thought, honestly.
Eh nevermind. I've gone and confused Tully.

tully said:
The services in the bush have not been fixed. THIS IS A CURRENT PROBLEM! It's not a matter of whether services in the bush sucked 10, 20 or 30 years ago. What is dwelling on past services going to do? Nothing!
The motivation for complaining isn't important.

If you winge about the medical services because they are currently shit or whether you winge about the medical system being shit 30 years ago and still being shit today your aims are both the same. You want an improvement.

IF the problem is still shit today and has been shit for 30, 40 or 50 years it generally adds weight to your argument that the shit needs to be fixed up.

If you person x says 'bush medical services are shit. My mother and many other mothers died 30 years ago during childbirth because of a lack of medical services...today medical services are still terrible'...

If you recongise that someone should be able to say that it is apparent it becomes clear that it is very hard to divorce history from the present.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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Yea, I think katie is pretty much right in pointing out where your analogy fails. While the stolen generation is an event that occured over a period of time, then stopped, however had lasting implications - thus the aboriginals complain. With your example, Health services in the bush are bad for a period of time, then I suppose they stop, now while there may be lasting implications I don't think many people campaign over the past.
 

erawamai

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With your example, Health services in the bush are bad for a period of time, then I suppose they stop, now while there may be lasting implications I don't think many people campaign over the past.
Whether or not many people would use the past is irrelvant. They should be allowed to if they want to.

If you winge about the medical services because they are currently shit or whether you winge about the medical system being shit 30 years ago and still being shit today your aims are both the same. You want an improvement.

IF the problem is still shit today and has been shit for 30, 40 or 50 years it generally adds weight to your argument that the shit needs to be fixed up.

If you person x says 'bush medical services are shit. My mother and many other mothers died 30 years ago during childbirth because of a lack of medical services...today medical services are still terrible'...then they should be able to say it with recourse to the past.

If you recongise that someone should be able to say that it becomes clear that it is very hard to divorce history from the present.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Whether or not many people would use the past is irrelvant. They should be allowed to if they want to.
If it's simply an argument about whether they should be allowed to, I agree, however in practice it seems generally people don't care about such things and I think it's important to point out.

If you winge about the medical services because they are currently shit or whether you winge about the medical system being shit 30 years ago and still being shit today your aims are both the same. You want an improvement.
We're arguing about the stolen generation right? (Honestly don't know) People are complaining about the stolen generation - they cannot get any further improvement because it's already been scrapped.

So what the true analogy is,

- Stolen Generation
- People Complain
- Stolen Generation ended
- People complain about the lasting affect of the stolen generation.

- Bush services are shit
- People complain
- Bush services get fixed
- People complain about the lasting affect of the services being shit.

See it ends up sounding a whole lot different.
 

HotShot

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Not-That-Bright said:
If it's simply an argument about whether they should be allowed to, I agree, however in practice it seems generally people don't care about such things and I think it's important to point out.



We're arguing about the stolen generation right? (Honestly don't know) People are complaining about the stolen generation - they cannot get any further improvement because it's already been scrapped.

So what the true analogy is,

- Stolen Generation
- People Complain
- Stolen Generation ended
- People complain about the lasting affect of the stolen generation.

- Bush services are shit
- People complain
- Bush services get fixed
- People complain about the lasting affect of the services being shit.

See it ends up sounding a whole lot different.

hmm... people did complain about the stolen generation as it result it will never happen again .

as for bush services, people complain we have yet to see the result.
 
K

katie_tully

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Ah yes, which services were these? I'd be interested to know.
Education? Roads? Child care?
 
K

katie_tully

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What services have been fixed in the city?
Education, child care...the cross city tunnel?
 
K

katie_tully

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Never have lived in the Bush, you'd know all about the severity of the problems :)

BTW, I have also lived in "Penriff", so I know about the problems in the city.

They treat problems according to suburbs, not the city as a whole. People on the North Shore don't give a fuck about people in the Western Suburbs, just as people in Blacktown are too busy breaking into their neighbours houses to care about anybody else. Essentially, your individual suburbs are no larger than our country regional centres or towns. Many of the ones out here have anywhere from 10,000-50,000 people.

You guys choose to live on top of each other, so why should we be penalised for that :)
 

mr_shittles

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politik said:
Its not that you're not important, its just that we dont care. We have enough Social problems around at the moment to care about inadequate communications services in the bush (as is the case with Telstra).
Mate, Telstra is being forced to provide services to the bush at below cost prices. It seriously needs to cut back some of its rural services.

And in Sydney we got serious rail problems, highest payroll taxes anywhere in Australia, and ridiculous land taxes. Sydneysiders pay the mosts taxes for "services", and they get penuts. People in the bush pay penuts for taxes (most of them fall in 40% of the Aust population who collect more welfare than taxes) and get resonable services. This is the biggest injustice!
 
K

katie_tully

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mr_shittles said:
Mate, Telstra is being forced to provide services to the bush at below cost prices. It seriously needs to cut back some of its rural services.

And in Sydney we got serious rail problems, highest payroll taxes anywhere in Australia, and ridiculous land taxes. Sydneysiders pay the mosts taxes for "services", and they get penuts. People in the bush pay penuts for taxes (most of them fall in 40% of the Aust population who collect more welfare than taxes) and get resonable services. This is the biggest injustice!
This coming from the same guy who cried because farmers get drought assistance whilst his front lawn dies.

Lolercoaster.
 

banco55

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mr_shittles said:
Mate, Telstra is being forced to provide services to the bush at below cost prices. It seriously needs to cut back some of its rural services.

And in Sydney we got serious rail problems, highest payroll taxes anywhere in Australia, and ridiculous land taxes. Sydneysiders pay the mosts taxes for "services", and they get penuts. People in the bush pay penuts for taxes (most of them fall in 40% of the Aust population who collect more welfare than taxes) and get resonable services. This is the biggest injustice!
Very true. The bush is lucky that in Australia most services are provided at the federal/state level. If it was like the US where more services are funded at the local level they would be much worse off. They should STFU and stop complaining.
 

White Rabbit

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katie_tully said:
I eat pizza, thus I embrace my Italian heritage.
I dress up as a leprechaun on St Pats because I love Irish people. I don't know why, but they're just awesome. If I could claim any other heritage, it would be teh Irish.
I back Australia in sport and I think Australian culture is dead. Why? Because we forgot what our (well mainly your) forefathers did for this country.
This country was built by a desire to overcome adversity. The convicts built the foundations of this country with their own hands. Bushrangers gave us our own folklore, A.B Patterson gave us poetry and our Diggers gave us freedom.

And now look at us? What did our (your) Diggers die for? Did they die for us to become ashamed of what we are? Did they die so that embracing the Australian flag is a racist gesture? So that people who hate our way of life can stand out against us?
We cannot even speak out in our own country for fear of being branded racist. If you dare suggest that a small group of whatever race/religion hates our country, then you are accused of condemning the entire race!
Aboriginals are protesting at the Commonwealth Games, refering to it as the Stolenwealth Games and want to know why they cannot represent themselves?! And yet we're still getting told that WE, white Australians are the ones pushing Aborignals away?
It seems like we're the only ones trying to make an effort, but everybody else sees the word 'Australian' as a dirty word.

Fuckin Word!!



Also, in regards to the City taxes Vs. Bush services... It's the whole idea of income distribution. Are you implying all taxes collected in Mosman should remain there? Should everyone living in the block at Redfern be forced deeper into poverty because their level of taxes aren't as high as their well off sounterparts a mere 10 minutes north of them? And why leave it at suburbs, in fact, if the whole idea is for taxes to be returned to where they orginated, lets cut out the middle man and not pay taxes at all - everyone can pay for everything themselves - telecommunications, health, education - if you can't afford school, then you remain uneducated, if you can afford the hospital fees, you can sit outside the gate and cure yourself. Because thats essentially the level of your argument - taxes should be spent where they originated, which completley goes against the original intention of taxation - to provide some level of equality and provide basic services to all Australians, not just those living in Cities on the east coast.

Furthermore, I'd like to see the Australian economy survive if all rural and mining exports suddenly ceased. Given that rural and primary industries -- of which the majority are operated outside urban centres and in isolated communities -- combined make up more than 50% of our export base.
 

erawamai

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White Rabbit said:
Also, in regards to the City taxes Vs. Bush services... It's the whole idea of income distribution. Are you implying all taxes collected in Mosman should remain there? Should everyone living in the block at Redfern be forced deeper into poverty because their level of taxes aren't as high as their well off sounterparts a mere 10 minutes north of them? And why leave it at suburbs, in fact, if the whole idea is for taxes to be returned to where they orginated, lets cut out the middle man and not pay taxes at all - everyone can pay for everything themselves - telecommunications, health, education - if you can't afford school, then you remain uneducated, if you can afford the hospital fees, you can sit outside the gate and cure yourself. Because thats essentially the level of your argument - taxes should be spent where they originated, which completley goes against the original intention of taxation - to provide some level of equality and provide basic services to all Australians, not just those living in Cities on the east coast.

Furthermore, I'd like to see the Australian economy survive if all rural and mining exports suddenly ceased. Given that rural and primary industries -- of which the majority are operated outside urban centres and in isolated communities -- combined make up more than 50% of our export base.
Agrarian socialism my dear. You need to find out what it is before you bag aboriginals for complaining about minority status/disadvantage. Sorry Edit...you already know what it is you are arguing for it.

Who knew country folk could be so left wing!

rabbit said:
And why leave it at suburbs, in fact, if the whole idea is for taxes to be returned to where they orginated, lets cut out the middle man and not pay taxes at all - everyone can pay for everything themselves - telecommunications, health, education - if you can't afford school, then you remain uneducated, if you can afford the hospital fees, you can sit outside the gate and cure yourself.
The middle man is there so as to disperse the tax dollars in organised policies so that they are best spread.

If you are arguing that the middle man should be cut out no money would ever end up in the bush. The middle man is what makes sure people out in the bush recieve some tax dollars under proportional income tax. But I'm sure you knew that anyways.

I also think you will find that the government justly gives the big mining operations as much assistence as they want. But usually they don't any government invovlement.
 
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somechick

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loquasagacious said:
My my this topis is certainly on fire - so many things to respond to, apologies this post may become rather fragmented, or if events have passed me in its posting. Though I promnise to end on a light note.

Original Australians: The use of this to describe aboriginals (itself a term flawed by its generic nature) is clearly erronous and anti-multicultural.

For a start Australia did not exist prior to the establishment of a british colony. And indeed for some time after this point. 'Australia' is in many ways an abstract concept - it is the embodiement of an abstract, the nation-state. Prior to colonisation (and for a period following) there was no nation-state, ther was no Australia.

Aboriginal tribes (apologies to any anthropologiosts reading this who like to be more semantic with the terminology) did not form any larger aboriginal nation. There was no over-arching culture, customs or even language. In terms of the nation-state Australia was Terra Nullius, yes it was certainly inhabited by Aboriginies however it was not inhabited by either a nation or a state. In this framework the land was unclaimed and empty - ripe for the taking by any nation-state.

In sum the term makes as much sence as declaring the irish (as celts) the original french because they occupied the geographical area we know as France prior to being pushed out by competing ethnic groups. The same applies to virtually every country you can name; the welsh are perhaps more 'originally english' than the anglo-celts we know as the english, etc etc.

Moving on the term Original Australian serves only to seperate rather than include people as Australians. It basically holds Aboriginals above anyone who has arrived since. Thus this term is as wrong as any racism directed toward more recent migrants by the descendents of the british settlers.

It is as morally wrong as me declaring that I am better than Katie because I am a 5th generation Australian and she is a 2nd. In many ways it is a racist term and in its usage serves to create divides not bridges.

I am not opposed to the acknowledgement of a previous aboriginal inhabitance, much like I am not opposed to Katie professing an Intalian heritage or minka a serb/croat one. Living in a functional multi-cultural society requires you to integrate however it does not require you to abandon your heritage.

Bushrangers hunt 'abos': Why? Why would a bushranger hunt an aboriginal? They were criminals interested in making a profit, what profit can be made by killing an aboriginal? Bushrangers robbed people, white people - because white people had money. In fact as an interesting aside many aboriginals were bushrangers in the sense that they were members of gangs and functioning in the capacity of helping bushrangers navigate 'the bush' to both avoid police and flee from police.

Diggers: They went to war to prove Australia, they went to war to cement Australia's relationship with Britain. Similarily to our current relationship with the US we fight in their wars in the service of our own national interest. This is why we fought in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Malaysia, IraqI, IragII, etc.



Now for some blind nationalism from the other side of the debate...

The muslim world was the keeper of western knowledge during Europes dark ages. The great libraries and universities of the muslim world were the primary seat of learning the world over. They made important breakthroughs and discoveries, especially in mathematics and science. Scholars from the west travelled to the muslim world to study. As Europe emerged from the dark ages and this knowledge returned to Europe it directly enabled the enlightenment. The enlightenment began as a rediscovery of roman and italian thought - this had been harboured by muslims.

The Darwins, Newtons, Galileos, Surgeons, Philosphers, etc all owe their achievements to the storing and expanding on of greek and roman thinking by muslims.

Our numbers for fucks sake are Hindu-Arabic numerals. They invented a numerical system including 0 and negative numbers, they made important breakthroughs in algebra. I advise you to get a clue before ranting about our unparalleled cultural supremecy - europeans were not always great.

I daresay that you do not speak arabic, or persian, and probably not any languages other than english. Do you think shakespeare has a prominent place on the muslim reading list? Just because in your sheltered existence you have not come across great literature from anyone non-european does not mean it does not exist.

Are you too say that there are no great arab (afterall islam is a religion not a race so the term muslim is misleading here), chinese, indian, japanese, persian, swedish or even russian authors/playrights/poets/philosophers.

Your knowledge is constrained by three things: what has been translated into english, what you choose to read (I hazard a guess - not very much) and what you are made to read.

Our educational system does not make you read the Qur'an, The Art of War, Beyond Good and Evil or the Republic this is however not a basis for declaring the middle-east, Germany or Greece a cultural wasteland.

In sum In the coming years I hope you get smarter - though I fear you may not.



Have I mentioned I'm part Irish? ;)

FINALLY SOME SANITY!

Thanks L

I hope everyone takes in this non imperialist perspective. Especially the concepts of "Australian-ness" which are abstract and inherited by British imperialism. Also the contributions made by the middle east, which largely go unnoticed. For reference read Edward Said's acclaimed "Orientalism" . From studies of colonialism and modernisation i can add that imperialism heavily restricted and repressed the educational development of some middle eastern countries, hence why you dont have the Galileos and Newtons.
 

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