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Does God exist? (3 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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BradCube

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MoonlightSonata said:
No it doesn't. Even if God exists, I am not wrong. Agnostics have that luxury!
I don't know how this works, again I think you refer to your think that a God does not know right or wrong and more than his creations do. Please explain yourself better.................ahhhh Agnostics. lol, My apologies.

However, if God does exist, you may not come to know him because you may flat out refuse to believe any evidence that points to a devine creator.

MoonlightSonata said:
For the same reason that you can't justify the existence of aliens living on Earth -- there is no evidence or reason to support such a belief.
There is plenty of evidence that points to devine creation of our universe. I would like to direct you to a website. Have a serious read and don't discount evidence because you don't want to believe, I think you will have a plesent suprise.

http://www.reasons.org

One more question how much more do you try and research to disprove the possibility of a God in comparison to how much you would research evidence that points to God?
 

MoonlightSonata

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BradCube said:
So then, if you can say that there in no right or wrong and my morals are defined by my own feelings in life let me give you this proposition. Lets say my own feelings toward morals suggest that I believe there is an absolute truth. That I believe that there are definate rights and wrongs. Who are you to say I am wrong for believing that there definate rights and wrongs? By doing so you would disprove what you set out to do, by answering that I am right in what I believe would mean that you are wrong in what you believe. The two cannot exist, it is that simple. You cannot say that the only absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth. What a rediculous proposition.
You misinterpreted what I said, allow me to clarify.

I did not say that what we feel makes something right or wrong. I said that what we believe to be right or wrong is produced by what we feel.
BradCube said:
MoonlightSonata said:
Secondly, you assume that God exists. Since there is no proof of this, there is no foundation to build a system of ethics based upon "God's commands" on.
The reason I mentioned God was because you felt it was okay to judge that morally homosexuality is okay and right. Who are you to say this when you don't even think there is right or wrong? The only person that can say whether it is right or wrong, if he exists and he created us, is God.
1. I already explained that my system of normative ethics is utilitarianism: produce the greatest pleasure/happiness for the greatest number. Since homosexuality does not produce displeasure/unhappiness, and denying it does, it is not morally wrong under this ethical system.

2. Yes, the key part being assuming that god exists. Since you cannot prove that god exists, you cannot go around making ethical claims based on god, because you have no basis for them.
BradCube said:
MoonlightSonata said:
Thirdly, even if God exists, he would not be able to define morality, or morality would be meaningless. Hence, God could only discover what is right or wrong. This does not involve a "judgment" of right or wrong, rather it involves comparing the actions of individuals to some objective (external to God) criteria.
If God exists, then he would have to be the one to create morality, and this creation means that it is defined. This therefore means that he has created right and wrong.
You've fallen into the trap set by Socrates.

If God made morality, then he could have made everything that is now good, bad. He could have made killing morally good. He could have made helping people morally bad. This completely takes any meaning from moral value, because whether something is right or wrong is dependant on the whim of some being.
BradCube said:
Surley if God exists then He would be perfect, correct?
No, not necessarily. If by God you mean some being that created the universe, he might not be perfect. (Indeed, our current situation on Earth suggests that he is not perfect, since there is a great deal of suffering.)
BradCube said:
With this, it makes it impossible for someone of that very nature to be put with someone who is only based on a comparing of some objective outside of God.
It depends - is god the good causer, as in he/she/it creates morality, or is god the good detector, as in god knows what is right and wrong. If it is the former, then morality is meaningless, as explained above. If it is the latter, then morality is independant of god.
BradCube said:
If it is outside of God then I doubt that moratlity will match up between the two. Maybe I have missed your point entirely, would you care to expand because either your irrationally trying to prove that God does not have morals, or I am missing something key.
You should be able to understand now.
BradCube said:
Again, you show that you feel you have the right to make a judgement that would normally be made by a creator. Did you create people the way they are? If not, then how could you possibley justify that you know what is right and wrong for them?
One word: reason. You judge right and wrong by what consequences are brought about. If an act produces good consequences, then it is morally good. If an act produces bad consequences, then it is morally bad. You have to make some baseline assumption of the nature of good and bad consequences, such as pleasure/happiness, but as a normative system of ethics that is pretty uncontroversial.

(As I said, there really is no such thing as right or wrong, but when I talk about normative ethics I mean a man-made system of ethics that prescribes what we should do).
 
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MoonlightSonata

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BradCube said:
However, if God does exist, you may not come to know him because you may flat out refuse to believe any evidence that points to a devine creator.
No, I do not discount reason. I simply believe that there is no credible evidence. You can look at so-called evidence and reject it as not proving what it is alleged to prove. That is not the same as ignoring it.
BradCube said:
There is plenty of evidence that points to devine creation of our universe. I would like to direct you to a website. Have a serious read and don't discount evidence because you don't want to believe, I think you will have a plesent suprise.
http://www.reasons.org
If you think there are persuassive reasons then put forward each reason here and I will dismantle it for you. I have heard a lot of bad arguments in my time and I'm not going tramping through a random website to read more of them. I will certainly address any you present however.
BradCube said:
One more question how much more do you try and research to disprove the possibility of a God in comparison to how much you would research evidence that points to God?
I never said God does not exist. I'm an agnostic.
 

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MoonlightSonata said:
You misinterpreted what I said, allow me to clarify.

I did not say that what we feel makes something right or wrong. I said that what we believe to be right or wrong is produced by what we feel.
Yeah in that sense you are right. But whether this actually means it is right or wrong seems to be totally ignored. For example, I could say I feel like robbing a bank, so that is right and morally justifiable for myself. However this does not change the real truth behind it. We need a moral foundation to base all of these things around. Suggesting that it is right or wrong because of what each individual personal feels is not a rational way of solving the problem since everyone feels different things. We, on this basis alone have no way of saying that there is right and wrong, yet the conscience of most would deny this no doubt. I would suggest that it is because we ignore the real truths implanted in our conscience that we decide what we feel makes it right or wrong for us. If you ignore a conscience long enough you will never feel the original truths that were in you hence allowing you to create your own sense of right and wrong.
MoonlightSonata said:
1. I already explained that my system of normative ethics is utilitarianism: produce the greatest pleasure/happiness for the greatest number. Since homosexuality does not produce displeasure/unhappiness, and denying it does, it is not morally wrong under this ethical system.
Isn't it obvious that pleasure does not = right?
By saying that we assume that the primary meaning of life is pleasure and anything that gains it is right and morally justifiable.

MoonlightSonata said:
2. Yes, the key part being assuming that god exists. Since you cannot prove that god exists, you cannot go around making ethical claims based on god, because you have no basis for them.
I can prove God only as much as you can deny that I can prove him. In that, I will never be able to prove him to you because as humans we don't have the same knowledge that, if in exisance, God would, and also becasue someone who doesn't believe God can be proved will never look un-biasedly to the evidence that points to his existance.

MoonlightSonata said:
You've fallen into the trap set by Socrates.

If God made morality, then he could have made everything that is now good, bad. He could have made killing morally good. He could have made helping people morally bad. This completely takes any meaning from moral value, because whether something is right or wrong is dependant on the whim of some being.
No, not necessarily. If by God you mean some being that created the universe, he might not be perfect. (Indeed, our current situation on Earth suggests that he is not perfect, since there is a great deal of suffering.)
It depends - is god the good causer, as in he/she/it creates morality, or is god the good detector, as in god knows what is right and wrong. If it is the former, then morality is meaningless, as explained above. If it is the latter, then morality is independant of god.
You should be able to understand now.
One word: reason. You judge right and wrong by what consequences are brought about. If an act produces good consequences, then it is morally good. If an act produces bad consequences, then it is morally bad. You have to make some baseline assumption of the nature of good and bad consequences, such as pleasure/happiness, but as a normative system of ethics that is pretty uncontroversial.
If God is perfect as I suggest (I will get onto reasoning) then he will be both the "causer" and "detector". If he is perfect, his morals also are perfect and his creations will be implanted with this sense of right and wrong because they are from him. God cannot say that murder is okay because he is perfect and knows what right and wrong are. The fact that our original, unaltered concience matches up to what is tought in the bible speaks in a huge way to me.

How does a suffering world indicate an im-perfect God. I think it indicates imperfection in us. A God allowing us to choose a path that he doesn't want, does not indictae that he is imperfect. To suggest this would be to say that the only way he could be perfect was if he created robots that did nothing wrong. The suffering in this world is an indication of the stupid decisions we make. Do you think God intended people to die and live in suffering? We choose that path.

However, without the existance of a God all of this is meaningless as you suggest. Morality has no value because there is nothing higher than oursleves to be measured against. Whilst a majority of people may agree on a particular area does not make it right or true. People change and that by say that morals change, you are saying that right and wrong also change. Would this suggest that truth can change also? If truth can change, what basis do we have for anything in our lives? Are we really as pointless as this would make us seem?
 
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withoutaface

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As MS has said, we can judge morality through a libertarian set of ethics whereby one can do whatever they wish unless it impacts upon another person.
 

MoonlightSonata

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BradCube said:
MoonlightSonata said:
I did not say that what we feel makes something right or wrong. I said that what we believe to be right or wrong is produced by what we feel.
Yeah in that sense you are right. But whether this actually means it is right or wrong seems to be totally ignored. For example, I could say I feel like robbing a bank, so that is right and morally justifiable for myself. However this does not change the real truth behind it.
But the point is that there is no real truth behind it. There is no truth to moral claims.

What makes something right or wrong? There is nothing in the world that tells you it is right or wrong. As David Hume so famously gave the example, you can analyse a murder - look at it in every possible detail - you will never find any fact about this act that you can determine it is wrong by. It is only when you turn your observations inward, and a feeling of disapproval arises in you, that you feel it is wrong. But there is no truth in saying it is wrong.
BradCube said:
We need a moral foundation to base all of these things around.
That's exactly right, which is why we have systems of ethics, such as utilitarianism.
BradCube said:
Suggesting that it is right or wrong because of what each individual personal feels is not a rational way of solving the problem since everyone feels different things.
I never suggested it was the way of solving the problem. I will try to make this clearer for you. There are two main fields of ethics - meta-ethics and normative ethics.

Meta-ethics deals with the ultimate truths about moral statements - what is morality, what do we mean by right or wrong, etc. In meta-ethical terms, I believe that there is no such thing as moral truth. This includes my statements about the fact that what we perceive as wrong is really produced by feeling. This is not an argument whereby I am saying that should be what is right and wrong. It is simply describing what people do think of as right or wrong.

Normative ethics deals with telling people how they should live. We have systems of normative ethics, such as utlitarianism, deontology, etc that attempt to provide a groundwork to base our civilisation on. That is where the practical solution is, and as I said, I approve of utilitarianism. Reason can provide us with a stable and logical system of morality.
BradCube said:
We, on this basis alone have no way of saying that there is right and wrong, yet the conscience of most would deny this no doubt.
This "conscience" is nothing logical, it is only the feeling of disapprobation that one gets, as a result of empathy with other creatures.
BradCube said:
I would suggest that it is because we ignore the real truths implanted in our conscience that we decide what we feel makes it right or wrong for us.
There are no "truths implanted in a consciousness".
BradCube said:
If you ignore a conscience long enough you will never feel the original truths that were in you hence allowing you to create your own sense of right and wrong.
You are again suggesting that someone put them in there, which again turns on God. Since you cannot prove the existence of god, you cannot rely on that as a foundation for moral claims.
BradCube said:
Isn't it obvious that pleasure does not = right?
By saying that we assume that the primary meaning of life is pleasure and anything that gains it is right and morally justifiable.
Why not? Pleasure and happiness are the best things on earth!
BradCube said:
I can prove God only as much as you can deny that I can prove him. In that, I will never be able to prove him to you because as humans we don't have the same knowledge that, if in exisance, God would, and also becasue someone who doesn't believe God can be proved will never look un-biasedly to the evidence that points to his existance.
You have just claimed that every non-believer cannot approach the question of God's existence without bias. You are not only extremely wrong (they are in fact more neutral than you are, for non-believers have no religious indoctrination), that is quite insulting.
BradCube said:
If God is perfect as I suggest (I will get onto reasoning) then he will be both the "causer" and "detector". If he is perfect, his morals also are perfect and his creations will be implanted with this sense of right and wrong because they are from him. God cannot say that murder is okay because he is perfect and knows what right and wrong are.
You just contradicted yourself. You claim that god created right and wrong. Ergo, he could make right and wrong anything he wants.
BradCube said:
The fact that our original, unaltered concience matches up to what is tought in the bible speaks in a huge way to me.
You're mixing up cause and effect. Can you not conceive of the idea that humans wrote the Bible, and obviously our own feelings of good and bad were written into it that way?
BradCube said:
However, without the existance of a God all of this is meaningless as you suggest. Morality has no value because there is nothing higher than oursleves to be measured against. Whilst a majority of people may agree on a particular area does not make it right or true.
Of course it doesn't.
BradCube said:
People change and that by say that morals change, you are saying that right and wrong also change. Would this suggest that truth can change also?
No, I am not suggesting that truth can change, because I said that there are no moral truths.
BradCube said:
If truth can change, what basis do we have for anything in our lives? Are we really as pointless as this would make us seem?
See the preceding comment.
 

**BORED**

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lol, with every post you seem dumber and dumber.

Their are several letters in arabic do not have english translations, therefore it would not work unless you and your program both understood english.

Your mind is too stubborn to open itself to change.
 

withoutaface

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You could replace those letters with a random combination of english letters eg agagsagf

My mind is not stubborn, I just find it hard to swallow when you offer me "proof" but nothing from which I can source the conclusion that you've drawn.
 

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Thanks for the comments MS. I may reply to them tomorrow because my brain feels like mush and needs some rest ;).

I am guessing that it will all come down to some proof, or at least evidence of a creator right? If you believed that that there was one, or at least believe in the possibility of proving one, surley your reasoning would be different in many area's. In which case I will leave you with this;

"The data demonstrate that the probability of finding even one planet with the capacity to support life falls short of one chance in 10x140 (that number is 1 followed by 140 zeros)"

If this does not indicate a divine creation of our world I don't know what does. Here is a link to the article if you would like the scientific reasons and proof backing this:

http://www.reasons.org/resources/fff/2001issue07/index.shtml#exotic_life

Have a good night sleep :)
 

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a conversation involves two things.

1. sending a message
2. considering the message recieved.

You have an obsession with number 1. And are lacking number 2. This is because your mind is "too stubborn" and "afraid of change".


It is for that reason that my conversation with you ends here.

goodnight
 

MoonlightSonata

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BradCube said:
Thanks for the comments MS. I may reply to them tomorrow because my brain feels like mush and needs some rest ;).
I am guessing that it will all come down to some proof, or at least evidence of a creator right?
Yes.
BradCube said:
If you believed that that there was one, or at least believe in the possibility of proving one, surley your reasoning would be different in many area's.
In some, obviously, but I already showed you that even if there is a god, absolute morality would be independant of him.
BradCube said:
In which case I will leave you with this;
"The data demonstrate that the probability of finding even one planet with the capacity to support life falls short of one chance in 10x140 (that number is 1 followed by 140 zeros)"
If this does not indicate a divine creation of our world I don't know what does. Here is a link to the article if you would like the scientific reasons and proof backing this:
http://www.reasons.org/resources/fff/2001issue07/index.shtml#exotic_life
Have a good night sleep :)
If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is --
Claim:

The cosmos is fine-tuned to permit human life. If any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, life would be impossible. (This claim is also known as the weak anthropic principle.)


Response:

1. The claim assumes life in its present form is a given; it applies not to life but to life only as we know it. The same outcome results if life is fine-tuned to the cosmos.

We do not know what fundamental conditions would rule out any possibility of any life. For all we know, there might be intelligent beings in another universe arguing that if fundamental constants were only slightly different, then the absence of free quarks and the extreme weakness of gravity would make life impossible.

Indeed, many examples of fine-tuning are evidence that life is fine-tuned to the cosmos, not vice versa. This is exactly what evolution proposes.

2. If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why is life such an extremely rare part of it?

3. Many fine-tuning claims are based on numbers being the "same order of magnitude," but this phrase gets stretched beyond its original meaning to buttress design arguments; sometimes numbers more than one-thousandfold different are called the same order of magnitude (Klee 2002).

How fine is "fine" anyway? That question can only be answered by a human judgment call, which reduces or removes objective value from the anthropic principle argument.

4. The fine-tuning claim is weakened by the fact that some physical constants are dependent on others, so the anthropic principle may rest on only a very few initial conditions that are really fundamental (Kane et al. 2000). It is further weakened by the fact that different initial conditions sometimes lead to essentially the same outcomes, as with the initial mass of stars and their formation of heavy metals (Nakamura et al. 1997), or that the tuning may not be very fine, as with the resonance window for helium fusion within the sun (Livio et al. 1989). For all we know, a universe substantially different from ours may be improbable or even impossible.

5. If part of the universe were not suitable for life, we would not be here to think about it. There is nothing to rule out the possibility of multiple universes, most of which would be unsuitable for life. We happen to find ourselves in one where life is conveniently possible because we cannot very well be anywhere else.

6. Intelligent design is not a logical conclusion of fine tuning. Fine tuning says nothing about motives or methods, which is how design is defined. (The scarcity of life and multi-billion-year delay in it appearing argue against life being a motive.) Fine-tuning, if it exists, may result from other causes, as yet unknown, or for no reason at all (Drange 2000).

7. In fact, the anthropic principle is an argument against an omnipotent creator. If God can do anything, he could create life in a universe whose conditions do not allow for it.

 

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**BORED** said:
a conversation involves two things.

1. sending a message
2. considering the message recieved.

You have an obsession with number 1. And are lacking number 2. This is because your mind is "too stubborn" and "afraid of change".


It is for that reason that my conversation with you ends here.

goodnight
You have sent me a message, but you have given no evidence of that message, hence you have failed on number 1. And for the record, my mind's so stubborn it broke out of 18 years of catholicism to realise the truth.
 

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That isn't pleasant for the people who are raped/killed, so you might not be able to do that.
 

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BradCube said:
Does a father love to be told they are loved and appreciated by their son/daughter? It is much the same situation. If God simply wanted us all to bow down to him for all eternity then he would have. The fact is he didn't, he gave us free will. (I suppose this will lead back to the free argument right?) Because we choose to worship him makes it so much more understandable. We do not worship him out of sense of duty but rather because we want to show our appreciation for him.
[while burning the Narrator's hand with lye]
Tyler Durden: Shut up! Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God?
Narrator: No, no, I... don't...
Tyler Durden: Listen to me! You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen.
Narrator: It isn't?
 

withoutaface

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Damage Inc. said:
What if someone derives pleasure and happiness from raping and killing people?
That's unacceptable because it creates pain and suffering for others.
 

HotShot

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davin said:
who says something has to actually exist physically to know what it looksl ike?
i know what darth vader looks like but he ain't real. all that is required is tht the concept exists, and the concept of God does, so its possible to have an appearance to go with. the question of accuracy ignored.
If it doesnt exist physically in the sense, where you can feel or touch etc then it doesnt exist.

Now Darth vaders exists as a characater because you saw him. But we dont know how god looks like, and noone has seen god, therefore he doesnt exist.
 

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In Summary:

God exists cuz i have faith

No he doesnt bitch, look at my pretty rock analogy

yes he does, all praise thy mighty

Hi everyone, im an atheist.

God doesnt exist, i do chemisty i should know

Hi i do chemistry, an di know god does exist cuz how else did everything get here

Yeah but he doesnt care. God hates me

There is no God. Everyone hates you

YAY!
 

gerhard

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the question with libertarian ethics comes to the forefront with the case against german cannibal Armin Meiwes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

Meiwes wanted to kill and eat a human. His victim(?) wanted to die and be eaten.

Is this wrong? Should this be a crime?
 

*yooneek*

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4 damage: :)

im probably starting a circular motion again- sorry- but we dont just believe cause we want to have faith in something cause it makes us feel good...who on earth wants to believe that they need Jesus...that they are a sinner in need of forgiveness- who would want to give there lives of supposed 'freedom' to live for Him...
something that just cant be explained is the holy spirit... once the Lord enters your heart, that separates you from everyone else- like a blind-fold being lifted- you cant ignore Him then- but i beg of you look at all the evidence- read the bible- dont make a decision against God because you think it sounds like rubbish ...
sorry i havent looked over previous pages, but out of curiousity (and if you've answered this question already just say so and i'll look it up)... who do you think Jesus was?
 

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