Does God exist? (3 Viewers)

[BradCube]

because he is vain enough to want legions of people to worship him?

If that were true, you would have no choice but to be worshipping him right now.

 

[erin_tonkin]

so many people think christianity is what some priest has as their opinion but thats not it. Its the bible. Jesus God and the Holy Spirit.

That gets lost in life so much

Christianity has stayed the same

 

[gerhard]

if not vanity, why would god want us to worship him?

 

[erin_tonkin]

read this

I'll answer you first because you asked a good question
There is an awesome Christian pastor from the U.S. called John Piper who is very into this idea called Christian Hedonism (hedonism meaning living for pleasure, so christian hedonism is find our pleasure in the pleasure of God)
Here's a couple of little phrases Piper uses to explain it:
The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy himself forever
What this means is that God does everything for his own glory so that he can enjoy himself forever. This is interesting because it shows that God can satisfy his goal of glorifying himself by himself. He doesnt need us to do that. BUT he created people and gave them a chief end too...
The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever
To this end God created us... to gloryify himself. That is why God wants us to worship him. Piper has another saying that says "God is most glorified when I am most satisfied in Him." What that means is that God gets the most glory when I understand that i have nothing else besides him and what he has given me.
Worship is the act of glorifying God. And this is the heart of worship... to find yourself satisfied in God.

 

[BradCube]

if not vanity, why would god want us to worship him?

Does a father love to be told they are loved and appreciated by their son/daughter? It is much the same situation. If God simply wanted us all to bow down to him for all eternity then he would have. The fact is he didn't, he gave us free will. (I suppose this will lead back to the free argument right?) Because we choose to worship him makes it so much more understandable. We do not worship him out of sense of duty but rather because we want to show our appreciation for him.

 

[gerhard]

so gods just abit insecure, is that it?


edit; but really he didnt trust free will that much so added some carrots and sticks. Worship me and you go to heaven, dont worship me and you go to hell

 

[Patchy]

If it's not free it's not love...

 

[BradCube]

so gods just abit insecure, is that it?


edit; but really he didnt trust free will that much so added some carrots and sticks. Worship me and you go to heaven, dont worship me and you go to hell

That's a joke right? Would you call a father insecure because they appreciate being told they are loved?

If you think then a God has to be perfect right? If he is perfect how could he create a heaven in which imperfection exists? His very nature prevents such an event from occuring. Hell is not a scare tactic used by God, it is a reality that must exists if God does.

 

[volition]

In a way, I 'want' God to exist, and for life after death to exist. I want to go to heaven and have eternal life. But on the other hand, I also think that a person should not believe something purely because they want it to be true. The world is not 'how i want it to be', it is how it is.

I just can't justify belief in God, and so I am atheist.

 

[erin_tonkin]

your belief can be justified through Gods grace in Jesus.


because you have studdied christianity and believe it to be true. not because you wanted it to be but because you truly believe it

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Who are you to say homosexuality is wrong or right? Honestly, your putting yourself in a position that only God can judge from.

Appropriate question followed by an empty statement.

Firstly, my ultimate understanding of morality is that there is no such thing as right or wrong. (David Hume goes through this in that our moral beliefs are defined by feelings, as a result of empathy with other beings. There is nothing true about them.) However my conception of normative ethics is built upon reason, whereby happiness/pleasure is good and displeasure/unhappiness is bad. So to answer your question, in this system of ethics, the greatest good for the greatest number is my outlook.

Secondly, you assume that God exists. Since there is no proof of this, there is no foundation to build a system of ethics based upon "God's commands" on.

Thirdly, even if God exists, he would not be able to define morality, or morality would be meaningless. Hence, God could only discover what is right or wrong. This does not involve a "judgment" of right or wrong, rather it involves comparing the actions of individuals to some objective (external to God) criteria.

Fourthly, again even if God exists, it is extremely probably that he/she/it would not disapprove of homosexuality.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

your belief can be justified through Gods grace in Jesus

That is circular reasoning in its most patent form.

You assume the truth of your conclusion (God exists) in your premises (God's grace).

 

[BradCube]

In a way, I 'want' God to exist, and for life after death to exist. I want to go to heaven and have eternal life. But on the other hand, I also think that a person should not believe something purely because they want it to be true. The world is not 'how i want it to be', it is how it is.

I just can't justify belief in God, and so I am atheist.

Although I have mentioned this before, I don't think that most people would want God to exist at all. Why? The reason is simple, it means we are wrong and need to change. Sure, the promise of heaven is nice, but it a hard path to walk to get their in many ways. It demands a response.

While it would be stupid to believe in something because you want it to exist, it would be equally as stupid to believe in something else because you don't want another thing to exist.

Out of interest, why can you not justify the existance of God? Is it for the reasons metioned on the first page of this thread, other scientific research, or something else?

 

[erin_tonkin]

im really afraid that this entire thread will result in nothing.
Christians have no proof Athiests have no faith

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Although I have mentioned this before, I don't think that most people would want God to exist at all. Why? The reason is simple, it means we are wrong and need to change. Sure, the promise of heaven is nice, but it a hard path to walk to get their in many ways. It demands a response.

No it doesn't. Even if God exists, I am not wrong. Agnostics have that luxury!

I also note that even if God exists, this does not mean heaven exists.

While it would be stupid to believe in something because you want it to exist, it would be equally as stupid to believe in something else because you don't want another thing to exist.

Yes.

Out of interest, why can you not justify the existance of God? Is it for the reasons metioned on the first page of this thread, other scientific research, or something else?

For the same reason that you can't justify the existence of aliens living on Earth -- there is no evidence or reason to support such a belief.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

im really afraid that this entire thread will result in nothing.
Christians have no proof Athiests have no faith

Faith = belief without evidence.

So that means:

- Christians have no proof for their beliefs.
- Atheists do not believe things without evidence.

 

[erin_tonkin]

yes.. and your point is??

that shows exactly that unless God steps in neither of us will budge in our beliefs

 

[MoonlightSonata]

the way i see homosexuality is that it is a sin just like every other. like lying cheating and murder. whatever

its not something that if ur a christian you ccant be

but i dont think you can be a practising homosexual. If the argument stands that homosexuals are born that way and cannot help it
God will forgive a murderer of a lyer or a cheater and he will forgive a homosexual.

Its just another thing but it is called to be something way worse than it is

You have no reason or evidence to support these claims.

I am disappointed that you have such irrational intolerance towards people of that persuasion.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

yes.. and your point is??

that shows exactly that unless God steps in neither of us will budge in our beliefs

Yes, but the difference is that we stand on the solid ground of reason. You do not provide any such reason for your beliefs. Who is more likely to be correct? The person who thinks about and seeks the truth, or the person who follows a belief without any reason or evidence, and never questions it?

 

[BradCube]

Appropriate question followed by an empty statement.

Firstly, my ultimate understanding of morality is that there is no such thing as right or wrong. (David Hume goes through this in that our moral beliefs are defined by feelings, as a result of empathy with other beings. There is nothing true about them.) However my conception of normative ethics is built upon reason, whereby happiness/pleasure is good and displeasure/unhappiness is bad. So to answer your question, in this system of ethics, the greatest good for the greatest number is my outlook.

So then, if you can say that there in no right or wrong and my morals are defined by my own feelings in life let me give you this proposition. Lets say my own feelings toward morals suggest that I believe there is an absolute truth. That I believe that there are definate rights and wrongs. Who are you to say I am wrong for believing that there definate rights and wrongs? By doing so you would disprove what you set out to do, by answering that I am right in what I believe would mean that you are wrong in what you believe. The two cannot exist, it is that simple. You cannot say that the only absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth. What a rediculous proposition.

Secondly, you assume that God exists. Since there is no proof of this, there is no foundation to build a system of ethics based upon "God's commands" on.

The reason I mentioned God was because you felt it was okay to judge that morally homosexuality is okay and right. Who are you to say this when you don't even think there is right or wrong? The only person that can say whether it is right or wrong, if he exists and he created us, is God.[/QUOTE]

Thirdly, even if God exists, he would not be able to define morality, or morality would be meaningless. Hence, God could only discover what is right or wrong. This does not involve a "judgment" of right or wrong, rather it involves comparing the actions of individuals to some objective (external to God) criteria.

If God exists, then he would have to be the one to create morality, and this creation means that it is defined. This therefore means that he has created right and wrong. Surley if God exists then He would be perfect, correct? With this, it makes it impossible for someone of that very nature to be put with someone who is only based on a comparing of some objective outside of God. If it is outside of God then I doubt that moratlity will match up between the two. Maybe I have missed your point entirely, would you care to expand because either your irrationally trying to prove that God does not have morals, or I am missing something key.[/QUOTE]

Fourthly, again even if God exists, it is extremely probably that he/she/it would not disapprove of homosexuality.

Again, you show that you feel you have the right to make a judgement that would normally be made by a creator. Did you create people the way they are? If not, then how could you possibley justify that you know what is right and wrong for them?