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Abortion debate (2 Viewers)

Abortion debate

  • Abortion illegalised

    Votes: 51 19.8%
  • Tougher laws

    Votes: 35 13.6%
  • Keep current laws

    Votes: 155 60.1%
  • don't care

    Votes: 17 6.6%

  • Total voters
    258
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nwatts

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spell check said:
christians only campaign against abortion because of antiquated ideas of female inferiority

if they cared so much about human life why would they be anti-homosexuals?
Man, i'm keen for debate, but you're off the mark with that one.

Christians are against abortion because they believe it to be morally wrong. The Bible says that life begins at conception. Therefore, abortion is murder. Murder is not "loving your neighbour" i'm afraid.

Homosexuality also has to do with how The Bible defines morality. Homosexuality is seen as being wrong. Therefore, Christians will (or should) find it an immoral practise.
 

Serius

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gerhard said:
congratulations - you've just rendered any possible argument you had invalid by your ridiculous last sentence.
i did? i dont get it

yeah i care about other people but its all on a scale i guess... the closer someone is too me the more i care child being the one i care about most
 

spell check

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nwatts said:
Man, i'm keen for debate, but you're off the mark with that one.

Christians are against abortion because they believe it to be morally wrong. The Bible says that life begins at conception. Therefore, abortion is murder. Murder is not "loving your neighbour" i'm afraid.

Homosexuality also has to do with how The Bible defines morality. Homosexuality is seen as being wrong. Therefore, Christians will (or should) find it an immoral practise.
but if christian morality says that homosexuality is wrong - a belief that goes against basic human rights and the universal idea that all people are created equal, then we shouldn't give any weight to the christian morality that says that abortion is wrong

life doesn't actually begin at conception simply because the bible says so either

the bible also says that the entire world was flooded at one point in history - something that is obviously wrong.
 

nwatts

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spell check said:
but if christian morality says that homosexuality is wrong - a belief that goes against basic human rights and the universal idea that all people are created equal, then we shouldn't give any weight to the christian morality that says that abortion is wrong

life doesn't actually begin at conception simply because the bible says so either

the bible also says that the entire world was flooded at one point in history - something that is obviously wrong.
You may not believe what The Bible says is correct, but many do, which drives their negative stance against things like abortion and homosexuality.

Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense.
 

spell check

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nwatts said:
You may not believe what The Bible says is correct, but many do, which drives their negative stance against things like abortion and homosexuality.

Your first paragraph doesn't make any sense.
apparently many people are easy to fool

of course it makes sense

if i said that i find having red hair immoral, and then said that i find abortion immoral, you wouldn't give any weight to my opinion on abortion because obviously my perception of morality is stupid
 

gerhard

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i clicked the wrong button and thought this was the last post.


It isnt right to kill a baby without a damned good excuse. accidents dont happen. Iam not one of those conservative Christians who beleive sex is only for your wife... but i do think that if you arent emotionally stable enough to have a baby should an "accident"happen... then you shouldnt be opening your legs like a damned whore.
was what i was talking about.
the last sentence shows your true feelings on the issue.
 

nwatts

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spell check said:
apparently many people are easy to fool

of course it makes sense

if i said that i find having red hair immoral, and then said that i find abortion immoral, you wouldn't give any weight to my opinion on abortion because obviously my perception of morality is stupid
You've firmly established that you know nothing of what Christianity is concerned with, so how can you keep arguing?

And back to what you said before, how are anti-homosexual sentiments a breech of human rights?
 

spell check

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gerhard said:
i clicked the wrong button and thought this was the last post.




was what i was talking about.
the last sentence shows your true feelings on the issue.
exactly, it reveals the true basis for this morality - a historical belief of women as being inferior that was adopted by thosein power, generally the church or monarchies who derived legitimacy from religion, and meshed these ideas with religious beliefs, the product of which we see today

notice he doesn't say that the man shouldn't have taken his pants off
 

erawamai

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nwatts said:
And back to what you said before, how are anti-homosexual sentiments a breech of human rights?
Oh the hilarity.
 

Serius

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gerhard said:
the last sentence shows your true feelings on the issue.
so you feel that its ok for people to be having sex without being aware of any possible consequences? i dont think this is right. Sex has consequences! if people cant deal with this then its like playing russian roulette and hoping that the consequence you cant deal with doesnt show up.

If a woman gets pregnant and the man wants her to carry the baby to term it should be basically tough shit. She shoulldnt be having sex if she cant deal with the possibility of becoming pregnant.

Same goes for males who run off after finding out their girl is pregnant. godamn pussies, they shouldnt be fucking if they cant deal with the possability of becoming a father
 

Serius

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spell check said:
exactly, it reveals the true basis for this morality - a historical belief of women as being inferior that was adopted by thosein power, generally the church or monarchies who derived legitimacy from religion, and meshed these ideas with religious beliefs, the product of which we see today

notice he doesn't say that the man shouldn't have taken his pants off
haha the funny thing about that is that i posted my reply before reading your post.

I dont think women are inferior. In many respects i think they have become more powerful than men in certain legal issues[ ironic that they were fighing for equality and now they are more powerful then men and keep going... they really should switch sides and get men back into just as much power to balance it out]

Although i would class myself as a Christian i do not beleive in many of the typical Christian ideals and it has next to no effect on my position.

Women have plenty of say in this topic so it has nothing to do with stripping them of power with children. Its about making sure that an equal say is given by both the man and the woman in anything regarding children. A man should never have total say as in what has happened in the past and still happens in third world countries... yet i also dont think that just because the woman carries the baby she should have the sole say in the issues. Fuck, if i could i would willingly strap your uterus on me and share in the carrying of the child.

I dont think that the flagship argument of the pro abortion debate [the woman carries the baby] should be brought into this debate anymore. We all know this and we all share different ideas on what this means to the issues at hand that arent going to change. I for one am not going to bring up this issue again unless brought up by another or addressed to me personally that i feel must deal with.

As of now we shouldnt use the old " the woman carries the baby" argument anymore :d
 

spell check

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you don't think that argument should be used because it is too relevant?

what if the woman dies during childbirth, or has some injury that makes it impossible for her to have children again

how will we offset her for that under your grand scheme?
 

Generator

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Serius said:
As of now we shouldnt use the old " the woman carries the baby" argument anymore :d
*shakes head*

Making a statement in bold achieves nothing, and in this case it only serves to strengthen the suggestion that you are nothing more than a patriarchal prick who is unable to even comprehend the complexities of the current issue and that of women's reproductive rights in general.

Edit: Sorry about the language, Moonlight.
 
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katie_tully

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I agree with Generator. Serius's post was disgusting and unnecessary. This argument has degenerated so much that I too am finding it hard not to hurl abuse at some of the responses.
 
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katie_tully

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Some statistical data - I find it worthless trying to argue with people who do not comprehend the difference between an embryo and an actual human life.

The medical definition of ‘abortion’ is the expulsion or removal of a fetus from the uterus.5 Abortion can be spontaneous, or it may be induced. The former is more commonly referred to as ‘miscarriage’, and it is the latter—that is, medically induced abortion—and the circumstances in which it takes place, which is the focus of public debate (and of this brief). Medically induced abortion is also referred to as ‘termination of pregnancy’. The terms ‘abortion’ and ‘termination of pregnancy’ will be used interchangeably throughout this brief.
The most common type of induced abortion is a surgical procedure known as a suction curette. This procedure—which usually takes about 15 minutes—involves the removal of the lining and the contents of the uterus (the fetus and placental tissue) by applying suction to the inside of the uterus with a small plastic tube.6 Abortions performed later in pregnancy involve different kinds of procedures, depending on the stage of gestation and the reason for which the abortion is being performed.7
As with all surgical procedures, pregnancy termination is not without risk. However, suction curettage is a simple and low risk procedure for women to undergo when performed between 7 and 12 weeks of pregnancy.8 The available data suggest that it is also overwhelmingly safe: in South Australia—which, as we discuss below, is the only Australian jurisdiction where comprehensive data on abortions are published—over the last decade, on average less than 1 per cent of women who had abortions experienced complications (and in fact, the proportion of reported complications has decreased steadily: from 1 per cent in 1994, to 0.4 per cent in 2002).

The total numbers of Medicare claims processed for the two MBS items which may result in an abortive outcome in each year over the last decade (1995–2004) are shown in Figure 1. The average number of Medicare-funded abortive procedures in the years 1995 to 2004 was approximately 75 700. As Figure 1 shows, in six out of the last ten years, the number of Medicare claims processed for procedures which may have resulted in an abortive outcome has decreased.

The South Australian data is sometimes used to calculate estimates of national abortion rates. For example, in 2002 there were 5417 abortions notified in South Australia, which equals approximately 17.2 pregnancy terminations for every 1000 women aged between 15 and 44 years.42 If this rate were replicated in the total Australian population of women aged 15–44 years (the so-called ‘fertile age range’) for the same time period, there would have been approximately 73 300 abortions in Australia in 2002.

In the light of current debate on ‘late-term’ abortions,47 the South Australian data on the gestational age at which pregnancies are terminated is particularly useful. It shows that in the years 1994–2002, the vast majority of abortions performed in South Australia took place before 14 weeks gestation, and that only a very small proportion (less than 2 per cent) took place at or after 20 weeks.
Nooooooooow, quick biology lesson. Technically before 8-12 weeks, it is referred to as an embyro. It is called an embryo because at 8-12 weeks it is only just starting to develop some foetal characteristics. At 12 weeks the embyro becomes a foetus and after 14 weeks abortions are illegal. You cannot just walk into a clinic and ask for an abortion, especially not after 14 weeks gestation. Late term abortions (24 weeks) are only allowed if there has been a medical deformity detected and it is judged that the child will not have a high quality of life.
So let's get this straight. At 8 weeks you are not murdering a child, you are not killing another human. It is am embyro. It cannot live outside of the mother. It relies on the mother for everything. Giving an embyro more rights than a mother, saying it is a human too is contradictive.
Many girls are not ready to have children. This has nothing to do with them not being safe, nor has it got anything to do with sex education. It is appalling to think that you people can lump girls who get pregnant into the "stupid, silly, neglectful" bin. Mistakes happen. Accidents happen. The only way to be 100% safe from pregnancy is abstinence. Condoms break, the pill is not 100% effective, nor is having your tubes tied.
What is your excuse for married women in their thirties, women who already have children. Why should they be denied the right to terminate a pregnancy, especially if they already have other children to support. Already having children would not make having an abortion an esay option, especially considering they have experienced giving birth and raising children.
It's absolutely disgusting that you can think all women just decide to have an abortion. There are more factors involved. It does not come down to the black and white. It's not a simle matter of "killing an unborn child, therefore it's wrong".
 
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spell check said:
christians only campaign against abortion because of antiquated ideas of female inferiority

if they cared so much about human life why would they be anti-homosexuals?
Christians campaign against abortion because they believe that human life begins at conception.

They are against homosexulity because they believe it's not the way that God created man (or woman) to be. But in saying that, people also weren't created to lie or steal either. So, Christians aren't against the PEOPLE they're against the ACTION. Christian's are called to love everyone, whether homosexual or hetrosexual.

I'm a Christian.

Just a thought - Have you ever noticed that when a woman does a pregnancy test, if it comes out positive she'll say "I'm having a baby" not "I have a lump of cells and some other stuff inside me!"
 
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katie_tully

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pantha-princess said:
Christians campaign against abortion because they believe that human life begins at conception.

They are against homosexulity because they believe it's not the way that God created man (or woman) to be. But in saying that, people also weren't created to lie or steal either. So, Christians aren't against the PEOPLE they're against the ACTION. Christian's are called to love everyone, whether homosexual or hetrosexual.

I'm a Christian.

Just a thought - Have you ever noticed that when a woman does a pregnancy test, if it comes out positive she'll say "I'm having a baby" not "I have a lump of cells and some other stuff inside me!"
I've never noticed somebody saying that because I'm generally not around when other people are peeing on sticks to determine whether they are pregnant or not.

Flawed argument.
 
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katie_tully

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Serius said:
so you feel that its ok for people to be having sex without being aware of any possible consequences? i dont think this is right. Sex has consequences! if people cant deal with this then its like playing russian roulette and hoping that the consequence you cant deal with doesnt show up.

If a woman gets pregnant and the man wants her to carry the baby to term it should be basically tough shit. She shoulldnt be having sex if she cant deal with the possibility of becoming pregnant.

Same goes for males who run off after finding out their girl is pregnant. godamn pussies, they shouldnt be fucking if they cant deal with the possability of becoming a father
I hope to god you never locate your penis. I'm not a religious person, but I think I'd pray for the girl and child involved.
Please. Don't ever procreate.

You have missed the point entirely. There is no such thing as 100% effective contraception, unless you count abstinence. Nothing guarantees 100%. You can take every precaution in the world - you would have to be extremely unlucky, but it happens.
Being ready for sex, and being ready for the consequences are two different things. You're such a twit. You keep going on about the rights of the unborn child. Why should a child be born into an unloving or unstable family? What quality of life is it going to have? Especially with you as a father. Making the girl have a child is only going to create problems. There will always be one parent who didn't want the child, obviously a relationship with you would be strained - thus effecting the child.

Think about the whole picture, not just between your skewed lines.
 
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Armani

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I don't believe providing statistics will in any way change the opinion of Christians. They are Christian for a reason, meaning anything that isn't from the Bible is to be ignored and is considered inferior and any logical argument will be countered with: "but God says... " This shows that they are incapable of thinking for themselves.
 
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