Aboriginal children in care now exceeds stolen generations (2 Viewers)

[Lentern]

That's pretty much any decent lecturer. Outside of something shit like cultural studies, I guess.

Nothing wrong with being able to communicate a point with a certain flair about it.

 

[Rockyroad]

I got swore at in Dubbo by an Aboriginal kid, no more than 6 years old, sitting in the street on a school day smoking a cigarette

I was like wtf

Again, that means nothing.
I saw a group of like 8 white kids (around 10 yrs old) and they were swearing and grafitying and smoking ON A SCHOOL DAY. I was like wtf...

 

[Rockyroad]

The Australian government didn't steal their land, considering we didn't have an Australian government until 1901.

If you want to blame anybody, blame Imperial England and its quest for land.

You need to remember that it wasn't just: England arriving, killing heaps of Aborginal people, stealing land etc and then it was over.
Aboriginal children were still stolen from their families in the 1970s. You keep saying stuff like 'get over the past' 'you can't blame the past for the way ppl act now..' 'why should they get advantages like welfare for something in the past...' You need to stop generalising and you really need to remember it isn't just the past. Racism, disadvantages are happening NOW. It wasn't an event in the 18th century and we are still seeing the effects. We are talking about decades of dispossession, segregation, abuse, do you deny all that?

You argue that no matter, what happened in the past, an individual Aboriginal person, could become successful etc. When you are born into a community with high unemployment, few health facilities, no role models, poor education, little money etc - how can you expect them to be any different from their parents? It is a vicious cycle. How can you expect an Aboriginal person born into 3rd world conditions, parents who have alcohol problems, who are poor, who was abused to do as well as the average white person. The situation a person is born into, greatly influences their future. In many Aborigines' cases, the situation they are born into is appalling. (See how I am trying to explain why the current situation is the way that it is)

A person's feeling of self determination is so so important. I read an article the other day where they said a person's feeling of control over their lives is probably the most important factor in their wellbeing/health. Even in the NT intervention, Aborigines are given money in ways that controls the way they spend it. I think this is an inexcusable violation of basic human rights, as though they are a 2nd class. There are many things we can do before we put children in foster care and control Aboriginal people's spending of their own money. We can give them proper resources and housing and other community facilities, mediation when it comes to conflict and much more.
And you disregard the significance of the disconnection from the culture and land, many feel, the loss of spriit that many experience. The land was immensley important to them. The loss of land should not be seen as an event in the past but something that is still happening - Aborigines are still being denied land rights today.

We canot change the past but we can change the current situation.
You are infected with the 'blame the victim' disease.

 

[Rockyroad]

The thing is the government don't really know how to treat the Aboriginal community. Some want to integrate into white Australian society, others want to stay true to their traditional ties and [most] others are caught somewhere in the middle, not knowing what they want due to their upbringing and treatment. So they take the governments money and do shit with it. The thing is, this in itself is not just an Aboriginal issue, I know plenty of "doll bludgers" and they are like that because of their upbringing and lack of education. It just so happens that the majority of the Aboriginal community suffer from this kind of background due to many societal and cultural influences.
It is DEFINITELY not just the stolen generations, but the way some may see it is that if white civilisation hadn't invaded they would live in a community where they are welcome and equal, and where their values are clear and important. Obviously, this isn't how it is. Fundamentally I think it's up to society as a whole to promote tolerance and acceptance and just accept the fact that nothing will be solved overnight.
Women are still underpriveledged, even if it may not be evident to some people. Just look at the workplace hierachy and where gender fits in. And women share the same history, values and cultural acceptance as men, their transition from suppression to equality will always be smoother than that for Aboriginals.
My point is that this struggle towards acceptance of ANY group is a long one, and there is very little we as individuals can do, or are willing to do. However derogatory comments and accusations towards the Aboriginal community will NEVER help achieve anything except more segredation and discrimination.
I don't know HOW to solve this issue, but I have an idea how to not solve it. If that makes sense?

It makes perfect sense. I agree with exactly what you are saying - right down to the inverted commas around "dole bludgers". It's a very good argument which is probably why no one has tried responding. It's a great point you make that: As humans, from a very basic view that everyone should be equal - we should be trying to reduce the gaps between all groups in society instead of blaming the victim.

 

[Rockyroad]

Okay, so if Aborignals can use their heritage as an excuse for todays behaviour, what excuses can other nationalities use?

If you're Balkan, can you say that being brought up in a war zone gave you a predisposition to killing kittens?

If you're Vietnamese, can you say that your parents being exposed to the Vietnam war made you predisposed to whatever it is the Vietnamese do?

There are just as many groups of people with histories worse than the Aboriginals, and I just don't buy using the past to excuse current behaviour.

I don't condone bad things done by people with a terrible history at all. We are trying to explain the current situation. 'I don't buy using the past to excuse current behaviour' will you buy using the past and current to explain the current behaviour?

 

[Rockyroad]

Not necessarily. Needs to learn to paragraph.

I was actually talking about what she said, not how many times she pressed enter when writing. Crazy I know.

 

[Rockyroad]

Nah, I seriously think you're a fuckwit hey.

Anything that was addressed by them, I addressed. I didn't read the entirety of her massive fucking essay because it was pointless.

So I spelt coherent wrong, have a cry about it. Spelling coherent wrong in subsequent posts does not mean the rest of them weren't. You guys continuously whinging about my swearing detracts from the argument, and it's really tiresome.

Deal with it.

Every post they made was full of accusations towards the rest of the people in this thread. Accusations about being Pauline Hanson supporters, racists, etc. Finally one person agreed with the sentiments I was making, but the other clown can't get passed the whole 'OMG WE'RE ALL ONCE RACE, WE'RE ALL HUMANS!'. Not all races are born equal, it's a fact of life.

I said "And stop focusing on ppl asking you to stop swearing and focus on what they are saying" and you reply with "You guys continuously whinging about my swearing detracts from the argument, and it's really tiresome...Deal with it" ........??? Can you see that your response makes no sense?
"Every post they made was full of..." every post? actually you have cited ONE post and I notice you have comepletely ignored some posts or responded with "I didn't read it all because it was pointless" - If you haven't read all of it - how would you know it was pointless?
And I really wish you would respond to the posts where ppl write a decent argument. See post 107.

 

[L]

stolen generation is stolen



/not even witty post

 

[Rockyroad]

Look, this is just like every other stereotype. Groups of people get identified by their characteristics or actions. And of course people just look at this behaviour and make critical judgements, without looking at the causes of the behaviour or trying to fully understand all aspects of the issue. If society can't see itself as one and take responsibility for caring for and looking after all people then there will always be segredation and a social hierachy of sorts. Of course, you can't make everyone think a certain way but individuals should try and look at stereotypes thoroughly, as opposed to accepting what their first impression indicates.
Promoting ideas that Aboriginals are all playing the victim card and that they're abusive and lazy certainly won't help anyone achieve anything. Maybe the reason they get so many benefits is because they are DISADVANTAGED. If you don't care WHY or atleast seek out the reason why they are disadvantaged then it's just pointless for you to talk about it; you're not going to help solve the issue if you're not open to changning your views.

This is so good I wanted some more ppl to read it.

 

[katie tully]

You need to remember that it wasn't just: England arriving, killing heaps of Aborginal people, stealing land etc and then it was over.
Aboriginal children were still stolen from their families in the 1970s. You keep saying stuff like 'get over the past' 'you can't blame the past for the way ppl act now..' 'why should they get advantages like welfare for something in the past...' You need to stop generalising and you really need to remember it isn't just the past. Racism, disadvantages are happening NOW. It wasn't an event in the 18th century and we are still seeing the effects. We are talking about decades of dispossession, segregation, abuse, do you deny all that?

You argue that no matter, what happened in the past, an individual Aboriginal person, could become successful etc. When you are born into a community with high unemployment, few health facilities, no role models, poor education, little money etc - how can you expect them to be any different from their parents? It is a vicious cycle. How can you expect an Aboriginal person born into 3rd world conditions, parents who have alcohol problems, who are poor, who was abused to do as well as the average white person. The situation a person is born into, greatly influences their future. In many Aborigines' cases, the situation they are born into is appalling. (See how I am trying to explain why the current situation is the way that it is)

A person's feeling of self determination is so so important. I read an article the other day where they said a person's feeling of control over their lives is probably the most important factor in their wellbeing/health. Even in the NT intervention, Aborigines are given money in ways that controls the way they spend it. I think this is an inexcusable violation of basic human rights, as though they are a 2nd class. There are many things we can do before we put children in foster care and control Aboriginal people's spending of their own money. We can give them proper resources and housing and other community facilities, mediation when it comes to conflict and much more.
And you disregard the significance of the disconnection from the culture and land, many feel, the loss of spriit that many experience. The land was immensley important to them. The loss of land should not be seen as an event in the past but something that is still happening - Aborigines are still being denied land rights today.

We canot change the past but we can change the current situation.
You are infected with the 'blame the victim' disease.

- Children were stolen. And where did they go? Into slums? Into the same cycle of neglect and abuse that they were removed from? No. Plenty of white kids were removed from their homes too, ultimately for the better. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with forcible removal of children, you can hardly say that these children were put into a situation that was worse than the one they were in. The removal of children earlier than this, for the purposes of breeding the Aboriginals out was more abhorrant, but considering this happened well before the 1970s, anybody born > 1970 can’t use it as an excuse for their current behaviour.
- There have been examples and countless success stories of people who were born into poverty, or had less than ideal parents, who rose above this. So now by your own admission, you are saying that their communities are a less than ideal place to raise a child? And don’t give me any shit about lack of health facilities. There are plenty of Aboriginal only Medical Centres around, there are countless provisions for Aboriginal only people in Health. There are countless Aboriginal only jobs, scholarships. Shit, they even reserve university positions for them. Don’t tell me the opportunities aren’t out there for them.
-

. How can you expect an Aboriginal person born into 3rd world conditions, parents who have alcohol problems, who are poor, who was abused to do as well as the average white person.

- Well this is the crux of the argument for removal of children. You’re all adamant that children should not be removed from their parents in instances of abuse and neglect, but then you rant about how they cannot possibly remove themselves from the cycle if they’re left in these communities. Unless they live in fucking Arnhem Land, they have no excuse to not access the resources that are available to them. But no, it’s far easier to sit there and collect government money instead of taking some responsibility and raising yourself out of the situation.

Even in the NT intervention, Aborigines are given money in ways that controls the way they spend it. I think this is an inexcusable violation of basic human rights, as though they are a 2nd class.

- They are being told how to spend their money because they’ve done a fantastic job of demonstrating that they cannot be responsible for it. So do you think it’s a violation of a childs basic right for food, shelter and clothing? Because the money sure as shit doesn’t go to that when it’s being spent on the pokies, drugs and alcohol. God, everything you’re saying is contradictory. So far we’ve seen from you that;
- Yes the communities are shit holes, how can you expect kids to break the cycle
- You can’t tell them what they can do with their (i.e. tax payers) money!!!

We can give them proper resources and housing and other community facilities, mediation when it comes to conflict and much more.

- We already do. Have you seen what they do to their Housing Commission places? They have a total disregard for anything that is given to them, because they know people like you will continue to support them receiving hand outs. Explain to me how and where Aboriginals do not have adequate health and community facilities.

And you disregard the significance of the disconnection from the culture and land, many feel, the loss of spriit that many experience. The land was immensley important to them. The loss of land should not be seen as an event in the past but something that is still happening - Aborigines are still being denied land rights today.

- LOL. What? We’ve been through this. There is plenty of land available for them to go back and live the native way, if they so wish. Don’t tell me that they are still being denied land rights today. In my area, I can think of at least 5 instances of where land has been taken back and given to the Aboriginals. Don’t tell me they have no access to their own culture. It’s there waiting for them, but they’ve become too happy with the trappings of modern culture. They want to complain about their loss of culture, but they don’t want to do anything about conserving it themselves.

I don't condone bad things done by people with a terrible history at all. We are trying to explain the current situation. 'I don't buy using the past to excuse current behaviour' will you buy using the past and current to explain the current behaviour?

Explain to be the current circumstances that can ‘explain’ or ‘excuse’ their current behaviour.

Here’s me addressing post 107!

Umm anyway, I think you're ignoring a lot of my previous points and focusing on the idea that I'm not listening and that I'm wrong or not making sense etc. The thing is I understand where you're coming from and there are a lot more indigenous people in gaols etc but obviously there are reasons for this and I don't like it that you're putting the blame on the entire Aboriginal race considering the factors that cause the issue are primarily based on a loss of cultural heritage and identity. Ancestory is extremely important in the Aboriginal culture and it the suffering of past generations has a huge influence on how some Aboriginals view western culture and our laws. I just think we should focus on helping all Australians as opposed to putting them down and focussing on our differences. Of course, this is a two way street and all we can do is offer the help, it is up to each individual wether they want to accept it or not. Or maybe we're offering the wrong help? I don't really know, but either way I'm not going to put an entire cultural group down because they are more disadvantaged than me.

There is no loss of cultural heritage!! For fucks sake, they’re entirely welcome to go back to their native ways. If I had to sit in school and get bombarded with Aboriginal culture and history, how can you sit here and say that they can’t access their own culture?! The fact is, THEY DON’T WANT TO. If it’s so friggin important, explain to me why they aren’t accessing it? And don’t tell me it’s because they can’t. There are countless Aboriginal Culture Centres/Facilities/Elders who would be more than happy to share it with todays generation.

 

[boris]

Abos are Abos

/thread




On serious time now.
Lentern the reason no one employs abos out here is because they dont want to work for their money. Farm labourers are paid something like $9 an hour (my girlfriend is one). How much cheaper can you get?

 

[katie tully]

Yeah but she is a tard and is getting ripped off.

The award wage for a farm hand is as follows;
In WA
http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/LabourRelations/PDF/Awards/F/Farm Employees Award.pdf

Even stick pickers get 14 bux!
http://www.workplaceauthority.gov.au/docs/Payconditions/2008ePSS/AN120161.pdf

 

[boris]

fucking had the biggest post ever but it took too long to write and fuckedingsi the fucking thing fuckkk

Edit: It involved west dubbo, walgett and that kid on my front doorstep

 

[Will Shakespear]

Explain to me how and where Aboriginals do not have adequate health and community facilities.

not many doctors in arnhem land

 

[katie tully]

not many doctors in arnhem land

cool

 

[Will Shakespear]

cool

racist

 

[boris]

Ah will that is touching on my massive post that got motherfuckig deleted.

The majority of abos dont live in arhnem land. They live in Wagga and Walgett and Dubbo and Cairns and Alice Springs. With special abo only medical facilities and community centres and sometimes abo only subsidised public housing.

That is where i got to the point of my abo next door neighbours. They lived in the same building as me but the kids didnt go to school. Why? Why?

 

[zstar]

Aboriginals cannot be helped in my view.

They are an extremely messed up society, I think all the welfare poured into these communities should be stopped immediately.

Everytime you give them money they'll spend it on alcohol or petrol. You give them public housing and they'll tear it down and destroy all the doors and windows(I know people who have witnessed this happen).

Basically they're going nowhere and until somebody is brave enough to finally stand up and tell them to clean up their act or face the consequences they'll keep living in their slophouses blaming whitey for their problems.

If they refuse to change then take all their benefits away.

 

[boris]

Lol in west dubbo they start bonfires in the middle of the street using the floorboards from the housing commission houses they were given.


Coincidently i just purchased an ex housing commission house right next to a heap of housing commission houses full of darkies. Should be fun.

 

[Will Shakespear]

you sorta can't win with the abo advocates

if you propose giving them endless welfare, well that's keeping them down

if you propose limiting the welfare subject to certain outcomes, e.g. they have to clothe, feed & send their kids to school, or maybe only give them one public house and if they trash it then they can be homeless, or something like that...
then it's paternalism and you're violating their human rights (lol)

if you propose moving them into towns & cities and having them live like westerners it's cultural genocide

if you propose letting them live in their own culture then they have 3rd world living conditions

so what can you do?