MedVision ad

A Game: Battleground God (2 Viewers)

ur_inner_child

.%$^!@&^#(*!?.%$^?!.
Joined
Mar 9, 2004
Messages
6,084
Gender
Female
HSC
2004
http://www.philosophyquotes.net/cgi...m=0&hits=0&bullets=0&bulletcount=0&hitcount=0

its a fun game, i thought. I put it in this forum, well... after playing it you'll see that the audience I chose was appropriate. Not for non-school at all.

Its neither Christian or Atheist based, its whatever you choose it, as long as your ideas do not contradict each other.

I'll admit that even though I'm fairly logically based, when in comes to my philosophies of God they do contradict. It was fun.
 
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
34
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
Yay for my TPM medal of distinction. That was an interesting experience...
 

Serius

Beyond Godlike
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
3,123
Location
Wollongong
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Earlier you agreed that it is rational to believe that the Loch Ness monster does not exist if there is an absence of strong evidence or argument that it does. No strong evidence or argument was required to show that the monster does not exist - absence of evidence or argument was enough. But now you claim that the atheist needs to be able to provide strong arguments or evidence if their belief in the non-existence of God is to be rational rather than a matter of faith.

The contradiction is that on the first ocassion (Loch Ness monster) you agreed that the absence of evidence or argument is enough to rationally justify belief in the non-existence of the Loch Ness monster, but on this occasion (God), you do not
wrong, i agreed that it is rational to beleive that the loch ness monster does not exist if no evidence is presented to me but it is still a beleif, still a matter of faith like most things in life, it is just a rational kind of faith. Some athiests do not know whether there is a god or not, they are the rational ones because its true, there is no real proof of god. Athesits however who think they know there is no god are not rational, i class this as beleif and as such its a matter of faith



In saying that God has the freedom and power to do that which is logically impossible (like creating square circles), you are saying that any discussion of God and ultimate reality cannot be constrained by basic principles of rationality. This would seem to make rational discourse about God impossible. If rational discourse about God is impossible, there is nothing rational we can say about God and nothing rational we can say to support our belief or disbelief in God. To reject rational constraints on religious discourse in this fashion requires accepting that religious convictions, including your religious convictions, are beyond any debate or rational discussion. This is to bite a bullet.
No God does indeed have the freedom to do whatever the hell he wants, but for atleast our existance he chooses not to, having the ability and not using it is very different to having the ability and using it, the term "freedom" here is very odd because God is free to do what he wants, but he chooses not to make circles squares so is this a lack of freedom? i dont think so, if he wanted to remove that constraint he could and as such if he really wanted to make circles squares he could.

That is why rational discourse about god is possible

You have been awarded the TPM medal of distinction! This is our second highest award for outstanding service on the intellectual battleground.

The fact that you progressed through this activity being hit only once and biting very few bullets suggests that your beliefs about God are well thought out and almost entirely internally consistent.


The direct hit you suffered occurred because one set of your answers implied a logical contradiction. The bitten bullets occurred because you responded in ways that required that you held views that most people would have found strange, incredible or unpalatable. At the bottom of this page, we have reproduced the analyses of your direct hit and bitten bullets.


Because you only suffered one direct hit and bit very few bullets, you qualify for our second highest award. A good achievement!


cool iam internally consistent however i hold views others would find strange
 

spell check

Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2004
Messages
842
Gender
Male
HSC
1998
Serius said:
wrong, i agreed that it is rational to beleive that the loch ness monster does not exist if no evidence is presented to me but it is still a beleif, still a matter of faith like most things in life, it is just a rational kind of faith. Some athiests do not know whether there is a god or not, they are the rational ones because its true, there is no real proof of god. Athesits however who think they know there is no god are not rational, i class this as beleif and as such its a matter of faith
how is it a matter of faith to believe something doesn't exist because there is no evidence for it. that is perfectly rational.

also how can there be a rational kind of faith?

No God does indeed have the freedom to do whatever the hell he wants, but for atleast our existance he chooses not to, having the ability and not using it is very different to having the ability and using it, the term "freedom" here is very odd because God is free to do what he wants, but he chooses not to make circles squares so is this a lack of freedom? i dont think so, if he wanted to remove that constraint he could and as such if he really wanted to make circles squares he could.
god could hypothetically change the physical form of a circle into that of a square. he could also sneak into all our brains and switch the definitions of circle and square and remove our memory of the previous definition? how would we know if either of these have or haven't happened, if he has chosen to do this or not?

how can you discuss what freedoms god does or doesn't have when there is zero evidence of god's existence, let alone what powers god might or might not have. you're just making up god's powers to be whatever you say they are!

That is why rational discourse about god is possible
how can there be a rational discourse about something for which there is no evidence of existence. faith is irrational by definition.

edit: i tried to play the game from the perspective of a christian fundamentalist type and got destroyed - i wonder if it is possible to get through unscathed like that
 
Last edited:

Serius

Beyond Godlike
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
3,123
Location
Wollongong
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
the thing is with loch ness there is evidence for it, a photo its just not scientific evidence so the most logical thing for an athest to say about god is " i do not know if there is a god or not but i choose to not blindly follow the religious types" that is more logical than someone else outright saying there is no god

I think if u want to argue religion you should know a little something about it, God chooses to play by certain rules that he is in a way bound to, ofcourse he is all powerful so of he wanted to he could do change a circle into a square, but he wants to abide by certain rules and so his will is to not interfere, so we can have reasonable discourse about god in such a fahsion. I am not making powers up, its written in the bible so if it is infact made up ,then it was by someone else, not I so Christians are bound to beleive what is in the bible, for that reason if the bible says god is all powerful, he is

i beleive in a number of things and that requires faith. I beleive in the theory of evolution, but again i need faith that the scientists who worked this shit out did their job properly, everything in life is a beleif, it is a matter of faith. Why beleive your senses?

you shouldnt, because the only thing you can 'know' is that you exist " i think therefore i am"

I hope i answered some of your questions, but i think you are just trying to be antagonistic, this test and its questions can be interpreted in a number of different ways and i had to think carefully before answering each question

how do u know i havent been shown proof of god anyways? you dont really, and if i have that could mean that there is evidence for god, just not evidence others are likely to beleive, doesnt mean it doesnt exist
 

Generator

Active Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
5,244
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Serius, faith is a 'belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence'. Are you trying to suggest that rational practices and arguments based upon logical proofs and material evidence should be taken as items of faith? If so... Well, are you with me?
 
Last edited:

Not-That-Bright

Andrew Quah
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
12,176
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
The question was,
If God exists she would have the freedom and power to create square circles and make 1 + 1 = 72.
And the answer was

In saying that God has the freedom and power to do that which is logically impossible (like creating square circles), you are saying that any discussion of God and ultimate reality cannot be constrained by basic principles of rationality. This would seem to make rational discourse about God impossible. If rational discourse about God is impossible, there is nothing rational we can say about God and nothing rational we can say to support our belief or disbelief in God. To reject rational constraints on religious discourse in this fashion requires accepting that religious convictions, including your religious convictions, are beyond any debate or rational discussion. This is to bite a bullet.
Now the thing is, I'm saying that if somehow a god (as popularily concieved) does exist, it must not be bound by these principles. Of course for arguments sake, such a thing is useless... like if you want to go ahead and say that God can do anything that's just silly, however it's the only way I can concieve a God ever existing.

Congratulations! You have made it to the end of this activity.

You took zero direct hits and you bit 1 bullets. The average player of this activity to date takes 1.39 hits and bites 1.11 bullet. 314870 people have so far undertaken this activity.

Click the link below for further analysis of your performance and to see if you've won an award.
 

Serius

Beyond Godlike
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
3,123
Location
Wollongong
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Generator said:
Serius, faith is a 'belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence'. Are you trying to suggest that rational practices and arguments based upon logical proofs and material evidence should be taken as items of faith? If so... Well, are you with me?
no, i am saying we all gotta have a little faith sometimes, anyways iam not the best person to forward this arguement cause i am not exactly heaps religous and i would prefer logic and science over it, is hard trying to understand both sides at once

i saw when that question was comming, it looked almost exactly like the nessy one, but i felt i had to answer the way i did. Perhaps i should have answered the other way then it would say " HAHA sucked in , religious people are irrational" cause thats what it was asking

NTB makes the best point, because if god does exist[ ithink he does but whatever] IF, then the way it is described in the bible, he can do whatever he wants

and you know what? maybe they are in a way

read up on the bible sometime, its all like " yeah so god is all powerful, but the reason why he doesnt do things easily in his power liek end world hunger is because that could possibly be used as proof that god exists, and then it wouldnt be about faith" its described quite well actually

You gotta hand it to most religions, it is really hard to make fault of it in the way it is worded, pretty open for interpretation and their ideas have had over 2000 years to make sure it stands logically on its own, sandy ground, because once u beleive there is a god, the rest makes sence, thats theo nly party that is hard to digest
 

Not-That-Bright

Andrew Quah
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
12,176
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
You gotta hand it to most religions, it is really hard to make fault of it in the way it is worded, pretty open for interpretation and their ideas have had over 2000 years to make sure it stands logically on its own, sandy ground, because once u beleive there is a god, the rest makes sence, thats theo nly party that is hard to digest
Not really, there's alot wrong with what religions say... and of course I'll argue against anyone that just appeals to a supernatural power to get away with it.

It's like :
1. 'hmmm... how is cancer started?'
2. 'LOLZ A MAGICAL BATMAN DOES IT!!!!'
1. 'Wtf?'
 

loquasagacious

NCAP Mooderator
Joined
Aug 3, 2004
Messages
3,636
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2004
I got the exact same result as you ntb and have the same problem with that question:

eg If there exists a God then he/she must by definition be all powerful and I would contend that this does not challenge logic itself as the power would be a definitional change eg what we know as 1 would now become 36, so 1+1=36+36=72. Except its more complex than that - but my basic point is that it is only illogical under our conception of numbers and circles where our conceptions changed (omnipotence would allow this) then it would no longer be illogical.

Basically I see no biting of a bullet here.
 

scarybunny

Rocket Queen
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
3,820
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
i answered true to 10 and 14, which is where my direct hit comes from.

ok so i said that if there's no strong evidence / argument that nessy exists, its rational to believe that it doesnt exist.

i also said that the absence of evidence isnt enough to rationally deny the existance of god.

pssh to their direct hit. a god wouldnt leave evidence of its existance, like a stupid loch ness monster would.

a god is not a thing that scottish people take blurry photographs of.
 

Not-That-Bright

Andrew Quah
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
12,176
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
Well I agree with you scary bunny, because I don't think anything is enough evidence to deny the existance of god (but on that pedantic level I also don't think anything is enough evidence to deny the existance of the loch ness), but we work off what we have.
 

Serius

Beyond Godlike
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
3,123
Location
Wollongong
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
yeah i would never do that or say crap like " it happened because its gods will"

thats a load of shit

basically everything should be rational and explained by science, not religion. Some people take me for an atheist, but think about it, if god exists and u does not want proof of his existance floating around, then everything should be able to be explained as if he didnt exist, and thats where sciience comes into it

how was man made " by god because he wanted us to LOLZ" yeh maybe, but maybe he doesnt exist and the mexhanism of natural selection is how it happened " yeh but lyke maybe natural selection is HOW god made man" yeah, i cant disprove that

see how science neevr actually clashes with religion?

thats wht i think its simply a personal choice and hsould not affect how you live your life and how you regard science
 

Not-That-Bright

Andrew Quah
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
12,176
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
If you say stuff like, god uses science, it does still change your outlook on life/science quite significantly. Unless you're imagining some sort of 'unconscious' as we know it, god.
 

Serius

Beyond Godlike
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
3,123
Location
Wollongong
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Yeah thats it, they way it seems to me, God hasnt done much since he created shit[dont start with me, any1 can simply say " Maybe Big Bang is HOW god created universe"]

The few things he might have done in biblical times were really passive,so much so that its hard to interpret them as acts of god sometimes[ Burning bush? fuck off it was an illusion lol]

I think hes not doing much and is basically sitting back collecting the souls so to speak, and not interfering with the living, but hey thats just me

IF a god created the universe wouldnt it be fair to say he uses science?

despite that fact, most things in life i think or do asif no god exists, i just leave room in my mind for him
 

Not-That-Bright

Andrew Quah
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
12,176
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
Why does he have to 'use' science, see that implies some sort of purpose... perhaps he just created the universe, with these laws, by accident.

Of course, I think it's impossible for a God to do something by accident also, by the popular definition...

Essentially I think a God is impossible, as far as we could ever imagine, the only thing we can say is 'if a god exists, it is beyond our possible capability of understanding'.
 

Serius

Beyond Godlike
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
3,123
Location
Wollongong
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
yeh ofcourse he is beyond our capability of understanding, i cant even wrap my head around how the universe is supposed to be infinitetly big, but its growing larger, larger than what exactly? does that mean it is infinitely larger today than it was yesterday?
God is way to hard to udnerstand

so to what exstent does science = faith?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=53830
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)

Top