Does God exist? (14 Viewers)

[Drsoccerball]

Btw in the bible does it say the word trinity ?

 

[Drsoccerball]

no it doesnt islam is obviously one true god religion islam is life #allahuakbar

Are you trying to be funny

 

[sy37]

Are you trying to be funny

nah sorry was just being a dickhead tbh

 

[dan964]

Btw in the bible does it say the word trinity ?

no it is the concept, that is directly implied particularly in the Gospel of John (chapter 8)
(at least in the sense that Jesus claimed to be God - at the very least in the minds of some equal with God)

 

[Drsoccerball]

no it is the concept, that is directly implied particularly in the Gospel of John (chapter 8)
(at least in the sense that Jesus claimed to be God - at the very least in the minds of some equal with God)

I really don't understand the trinity... Is it 1 entity or 3 ?

 

[dan964]

I really don't understand the trinity... Is it 1 entity or 3 ?

it is not an easy concept, I am not sure anyone entirely understands it
the text of the Athanasian creed best summaries this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
or this slightly satirical video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTwpOfr3NDQ

in summary, 1 God, 3 persons that are 100% God* (I think the correct word is hypostates)

*persons in the sense of personal/relational rather than metaphysical.

It is one of the three most difficult concepts in Christianity. Two are addressed in some detail in the Athanasian creed, and these are the trinity and nature(s) of Jesus (being 100% man and 100% God)
https://carm.org/what-trinity
https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

 

[Drsoccerball]

it is not an easy concept, I am not sure anyone entirely understands it
the text of the Athanasian creed best summaries this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
or this slightly satirical video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTwpOfr3NDQ

in summary, 1 God, 3 persons that are 100% God* (I think the correct word is hypostates)

*persons in the sense of personal/relational rather than metaphysical.

It is one of the three most difficult concepts in Christianity. Two are addressed in some detail in the Athanasian creed, and these are the trinity and nature(s) of Jesus (being 100% man and 100% God)
https://carm.org/what-trinity
https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

Why would God make his nature so hard to understand? Okay he is infinite(But according to the articles finite aswell) but why is something about his nature so ambiguous So is there 3 gods? 3 entity's that are all 100% god ? Also how can jesus(Pbuh) be both god and man ? So he's both mortal and immortal at the same time ?
From the link:
God is three persons. There is only one God. ?? If God is one then why does it say three persons?
He is fully divine and fully man. ??
Im not trying to create an argument i legitimately would like to know...

 

[dan964]

Why would God make his nature so hard to understand?
Its rather a question of how he has revealed himself to us* That said, of course different religions would disagree with the concept of trinity, as they would disagree on how God has revealed themselves. Personally, I am not up for an apologetics discussion against those of a different faith.

I found some concepts in the universe to be difficult, but simple in comparison. A complex creator is consistent regardless of the complexity of the universe, while a simple creator is inconsistent with a complex universe, which at time of writing, the universe is*
*unless proved it is simple.

Nope, the trinity says that there is one God (as opposed to tritheism), yet three persons. But at the same time, doesn't hold to partialism, i.e. the 3 persons are not 33.333...% God, they are 100% God.

Each has a will, loves, and says "I" and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods but one God. There are three individual subsistences or persons.

When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.
• Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
• Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
• Each of the three persons is related to the other two but are distinct from them.

May I add
May I add a relevant comment, obviously an atheist/atheistic agnostic who thinks that Bible/Koran etc. is wrong or incomplete/erroneous relevation, would disagree with my conclusions.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Why would God make his nature so hard to understand?
Its rather a question of how he has revealed himself to us* That said, of course different religions would disagree with the concept of trinity, as they would disagree on how God has revealed themselves. Personally, I am not up for an apologetics discussion against those of a different faith.

I found some concepts in the universe to be difficult, but simple in comparison.

Nope, the trinity says that there is one God (as opposed to tritheism), yet three persons. But at the same time, doesn't hold to partialism, i.e. the 3 persons are not 33.333...% God, they are 100% God.

Each has a will, loves, and says "I" and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods but one God. There are three individual subsistences or persons.

When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.
• Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
• Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
• Each of the three persons is related to the other two but are distinct from them.

May I add
May I add a relevant comment, obviously an atheist/atheistic agnostic who thinks that Bible/Koran etc. is wrong or incomplete/erroneous relevation, would disagree with my conclusions.

Well idk i believe the Quran to be the eternal unchanged word of God. And we also believe that Jesus (Pbuh) was the mightiest of messengers being revealed the injil translated as Gospel. But we don't believe that the bible in its current form is the book that was given ... So it may be subjective for me. Why would God lower himself as a human thus making him undivine? The 3 person thing doesn't sound right to me ahah... I agree its futile creating arguments

 

[Drsoccerball]

In reply to one of the statements
Something which is complex is by definition made up of many constituents, that is parts. Yes, it is not possible to fully grasp and comprehend God because our limited minds are not able to. However, to say that God is made of parts is a huge fallacy. Why? Something which is made of parts is inherently weak. E.g if a part is lost or weekened, this affects the whole body. We are complex because we are made of parts, but this makes us weak e.g when I break my leg. God is not weak, therefore He cannot have parts.
So, God cannot be grasped but He is not complex.

 

[dan964]

thankyou for your corrections. Yes, partialism is false. that is why the analogy of the pie/clover to describe God does not work. God is not composed of parts like a pie or pizza is composed of pieces. Christians worship only one God.

Some key statements/summaries from the Athanasian creed. Adapted from https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html
(1)
The three persons of God are namely:
- the Father
- the Son (also known as Jesus)
- the Holy Spirit (referred to as the Spirit here for brevity purposes only)
There is only one Father, only one Son, only one Holy Spirit. Each are God and Lord, yet there is only one Lord and only God (not 3 Gods nor 3 Lords)

(2) The three persons are not confounded (to treat or regard erroneously as identical)[*]. Each person is distinct (not identical), in person, to the other two, i.e. the Son is not the Father or Spirit, the Father is not the Son nor Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father or Son

[*] hence rejecting modalism

(3) Each three person is equally God and equally in glory. The Godhead of the Father, Son and Spirit is all one and coexisting eternally. The substance is not divided into parts or thirds (hence rejecting partialism)

 

[dan964]

(1) yes people can understand/comprehend God (or for that sake the concept of the Trinity) to a limited degree. Christians believe that God is revealed through when the Father sent the Son down to Earth, thus we can understand what God is like, doesn't mean full understand or comprehension but enough for us to believe, have faith and trust in his goodness. So how we do we get there, we read the Bible and decide whether we think it is true or not for ourselves. I am sure similar religions would say something similar.

(2) I am not convinced Science can disprove God's existence. Obviously some things will challenge how we* understand or relate to God, particular anything evolution/cosmology related. I don't find sufficient evidence to disprove God's existence, and I find that most cases of logical arguments are either
> equally balanced on both sides
> or clearly a case of what I'd like to 'failing to account for all factors'
> badly circular in logic or fallacious in other ways

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-18/dickson-tips-for-atheists/5397892

*Christians, or just people in general, up to you to decide.

 

[Drsoccerball]

(1) yes people can understand/comprehend God (or for that sake the concept of the Trinity) to a limited degree. Christians believe that God is revealed through when the Father sent the Son down to Earth, thus we can understand what God is like, doesn't mean full understand or comprehension but enough for us to believe, have faith and trust in his goodness. So how we do we get there, we read the Bible and decide whether we think it is true or not for ourselves. I am sure similar religions would say something similar.

(2) I am not convinced Science can disprove God's existence. Obviously some things will challenge how we* understand or relate to God, particular anything evolution/cosmology related. I don't find sufficient evidence to disprove God's existence, and I find that most cases of logical arguments are either
> equally balanced on both sides
> or clearly a case of what I'd like to 'failing to account for all factors'
> badly circular in logic or fallacious in other ways

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-18/dickson-tips-for-atheists/5397892

*Christians, or just people in general, up to you to decide.

By the way the Quran has scientific facts of cosmology. Heres the two I know:
Big bang :
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? 21:30
Expanding universe:
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.51:47

 

[dan964]

By the way the Quran has scientific facts of cosmology. Heres the two I know:
Big bang :
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? 21:30
Expanding universe:
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.51:47

that's pretty interesting statement (whether that is the actual meaning/intended meaning), I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct in the interpretation you've given, particularly considering that the Islamic world at one stage (during the Dark ages) was the centre of scientific advancement.
(its even more interesting its uses 'We' but that's another story)
but I leave it at that.

 

[Drsoccerball]

that's pretty interesting statement (whether that is the actual meaning/intended meaning), I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct in the interpretation you've given, particularly considering that the Islamic world at one stage (during the Dark ages) was the centre of scientific advancement.
(its even more interesting its uses 'We' but that's another story)
but I leave it at that.

Let me explain that
Arab Christians even if they believe in the trinity will not point at things such as "We." Its a plural of respect like if a king would be addressing someone he would say We...That's why anyone who knows the language would never bring that up. I hope that made sense. Im not as much of a scholar as you so its hard to articulate what Im thinking
EDIT:
It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he).

 

[Sy123]

Trinitarians hold the following set of propositions:

1. The Father is God
2. Jesus is God
3. The Father is not Jesus

Where 'is' is used in the sense of identity, i.e. The Father is identical with God

But of course, the 3 propositions that I've layed out are self-evidently inconsistent.

 

[dan964]

Let me explain that
Arab Christians even if they believe in the trinity will not point at things such as "We." Its a plural of respect like if a king would be addressing someone he would say We...That's why anyone who knows the language would never bring that up. I hope that made sense. Im not as much of a scholar as you so its hard to articulate what Im thinking
EDIT:
It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he).

thanks for that

 

[dan964]

Trinitarians hold the following set of propositions:

1. The Father is God
2. Jesus is God
3. The Father is not Jesus

Where 'is' is used in the sense of identity, i.e. The Father is identical with God

But of course, the 3 propositions that I've layed out are self-evidently inconsistent.

It is actually only two propositions:
1. The Father, Son, Spirit are the 3 distinct persons* of one God.
2. Each person is fully God and can co-exist but in unity.

"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God."

Either the first or second statement will be hard to comprehend. I think I've posted enough links.
If you are not convinced, then fair enough...

 

[Drsoccerball]

It is actually only two propositions:
1. The Father, Son, Spirit are the 3 distinct persons* of one God.
2. Each person is fully God and can co-exist but in unity.

"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God."

Either the first or second statement will be hard to comprehend. I think I've posted enough links.
If you are not convinced, then fair enough...

1+1+1=1 ?

 

[dan964]

"Mathematics has always to do with finite numerals and objects only - it cannot define, multiply, add or subtract to or from infinity. It can only represent infinity by a symbol altogether foreign to its own numerals and one which cannot be divided, multiplied, etc. The mathematical argument is thus a completely inappropriate one. "

but I can understand your frustration.