Does God exist? (6 Viewers)

[Drsoccerball]

I find it very interesting that Muslims use the bible to argue that Jesus was not divine, as interesting as braintic finds muslims and christians debating (unless he doesn't find it interesting at all).

By looking at the bible, one should deem Jesus to be Divine, a lunatic or a liar. Nothing else. Any one of these is more acceptable than "he's a good moral teacher" or "he's a prophet".

Look at the bible as some novel if you want, and you see Jesus ended up dead because of his divine claims. Many time's he was accused for blasphemy, or called Lord and God, and not once did he correct or rebuke any who said so.

If you want to claim he's a prophet or moral teacher than you must completely disregard everything in the bible.

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." 3:64 So we quote your scriptures and show you through your scriptures since according to you the Quran has no authority. So we show you in your book of authority where it writes these things.

Prophet :"a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration."

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17 Would he really say this if he wasn't a prophet?

Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.

Luke 24:19 “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people”

John 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

John 7:16 “Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.’”

John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.”

 

[dan964]

in reply to above:
I watched your video that you posted, and still don't come to the same conclusions as you.

Hebrews 1:1-3:
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. "

Because of this, Christians who hold the authority of the New Testament and hold it to be true, have no need for Mohammed, Hare Krishna Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) or Charles Taze Russell (JW).

full chapter for context:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+1-2&version=NIV
Therefore I trust the words of Jesus, over words given by an angel.

 

[Drsoccerball]

in reply to above:
I watched your video that you posted, and still don't come to the same conclusions as you.

Hebrews 1:1-3:
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. "

Because of this, Christians who hold the authority of the New Testament and hold it to be true, have no need for Mohammed, Hare Krishna Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) or Charles Taze Russell (JW).

So for you is jesus god or the son of god?

 

[Drsoccerball]

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" Matthew 7:23-24
Why would he say this?

 

[dan964]

thankyou for your corrections. Yes, partialism is false. that is why the analogy of the pie/clover to describe God does not work. God is not composed of parts like a pie or pizza is composed of pieces. Christians worship only one God.

Some key statements/summaries from the Athanasian creed. Adapted from https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html
(1)
The three persons of God are namely:
- the Father
- the Son (also known as Jesus)
- the Holy Spirit (referred to as the Spirit here for brevity purposes only)
There is only one Father, only one Son, only one Holy Spirit. Each are God and Lord, yet there is only one Lord and only God (not 3 Gods nor 3 Lords)

(2) The three persons are not confounded (to treat or regard erroneously as identical)[*]. Each person is distinct (not identical), in person, to the other two, i.e. the Son is not the Father or Spirit, the Father is not the Son nor Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father or Son

[*] hence rejecting modalism

(3) Each three person is equally God and equally in glory. The Godhead of the Father, Son and Spirit is all one and coexisting eternally. The substance is not divided into parts or thirds (hence rejecting partialism)

in answer to your questions, I repost what I have already said.
I have linked the rest of the chapter of Hebrews 1 and 2 for you, which also references strongly from the OT.
Christians believe that God's revelation is complete in Jesus, i.e. there is no need for any more priests, prophets etc. because Jesus is the ultimate prophet. I also edited into my original post on this page to which you asked a couple of questions another comment.

 

[dan964]

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" Matthew 7:23-24
Why would he say this?

Take a look also at Luke 13 which is very similar in wording.
I've linked here for your convenience: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+13


It is quite clear that these people are trying to get in the heaven, their way, and not through God's way, which is through the narrow gate and the narrow way (which according to John 10 and John 14 is Jesus). You are not saved, in a Christian perspective, by performing miracles, doing good deeds that somehow outnumber your bad deeds, but purely by what God has done by sending Jesus to die. It is exactly what Christians believe, for the most part.

And here is part of the context:
"“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
As a Christian, I look at the Mohammed and find his teachings incongruent with the Gospel.

 

[Drsoccerball]

in reply to above:
I watched your video that you posted, and still don't come to the same conclusions as you.

Hebrews 1:1-3:
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. "

Because of this, Christians who hold the authority of the New Testament and hold it to be true, have no need for Mohammed, Hare Krishna Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) or Charles Taze Russell (JW).

full chapter for context:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+1-2&version=NIV
Therefore I trust the words of Jesus, over words given by an angel.

Then if Jesus(pbuh) said something you'd believe him right?
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me"

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:


"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you"
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.

Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:


It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

Alot more..


And here is part of the context:
As a Christian, I look at the Mohammed and find his teachings incongruent with the Gospel. [/QUOTE]

The emphasis is on "LORD, LORD" "Your name" "Your name" "Your name"
I could quote many things in the bible that we as Muslims do that Christians do not do. I'll quote if you want... And I agree to some extent when you say the teaching are incongruent. For example when the bible speaks about incest and how Lot (The prophet) committed incest with his daughters Islam does not teach this! I ask you; What are you teaching the daughters and mothers through this event? Thats just one example... I could give more but got trials to study for

 

[Drsoccerball]

in reply to above:
I watched your video that you posted, and still don't come to the same conclusions as you.

Hebrews 1:1-3:
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. "

Because of this, Christians who hold the authority of the New Testament and hold it to be true, have no need for Mohammed, Hare Krishna Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) or Charles Taze Russell (JW).

full chapter for context:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+1-2&version=NIV
Therefore I trust the words of Jesus, over words given by an angel.

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." 3:64 So we quote your scriptures and show you through your scriptures since according to you the Quran has no authority. So we show you in your book of authority where it writes these things.

Prophet :"a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration."

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17 Would he really say this if he wasn't a prophet?

Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.

Luke 24:19 “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people”

John 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

John 7:16 “Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.’”

John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.”

And i give you 6 verses saying he's a prophet and you give me one saying hes a son...?

 

[dan964]

And i give you 6 verses saying he's a prophet and you give me one saying hes a son...?

the end of John's Gospel says:
"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
Although Jesus is a prophet as you pointed from the Scripture, he is more than that.
I don't consider the Quran to be inspired, for two reasons, one I hold Jesus to be of a greater authority and two I believe that Jesus was the final revelation of God, so Christians believe we don't need any new revelation that the Quran may have to offer.
did you read the entire chapter? It quotes heavily from the Jewish Scriptures:
Psalm 2:7
2 Samuel 7:14 (1 Chronicles 17:13)
Deuteronomy 32:43 (see Dead Sea Scrolls)
Psalm 45:6-7
Psalm 102:25-27
Psalm 110:1
in that chapter alone.

 

[Drsoccerball]

the end of John's Gospel says:
"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
Although Jesus is a prophet, he is more than that, although he is a priest, he is more than that...
1, I don't consider the Quran to be inspired, for two reasons, one I hold Jesus to be of a greater authority and two I believe that Jesus was the final revelation of God, so Christians believe we don't need any new revelation that the Quran may have to offer.
did you read the entire chapter? It quotes heavily from the Jewish Scriptures:
Psalm 2:7
2 Samuel 7:14 (1 Chronicles 17:13)
Deuteronomy 32:43 (see Dead Sea Scrolls)
Psalm 45:6-7
Psalm 102:25-27
Psalm 110:1
in that chapter alone.

Where did Jesus say that?
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me"
He said this so is your belief contradicting what he says ?
Watch this btw:

 

[dan964]

Where did Jesus say that?
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me"
He said this so is your belief contradicting what he says ?

Here is the context:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14
Summary: The role of the Holy Spirit is to point us to Jesus and remind us what Jesus has already said. (Secondly, if there is a Holy Spirit, how do you interpret that in light of your belief in God (Allah))

2 Peter 1:
"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

I would also want to know your thoughts on the book of Daniel?

 

[Drsoccerball]

Here is the context:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14
Summary: The role of the Holy Spirit is to point us to Jesus and remind us what Jesus has already said. (Secondly, if there is a Holy Spirit, how do you interpret that in light of your belief in God (Allah))

2 Peter 1:
"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

I would also want to know your thoughts on the book of Daniel?

Many christians argue that the entity mentioned in this verse was the holy spirit... But i ask you to give me another verse were it has the amount of personal pronouns as this one does... "he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he.." Such a characteristic does not suit the holy spirit.

We as Muslims believe in the holy spirit... But the Holy spirit in Islam im pretty sure is angel Gabriel(Jibreel) and again we don't raise him to a divine level...
"...and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit.." 3:87
"...We gave clear miracles to Isa the son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit..." 3:253
"When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! remember My favour on you and your mother, when i strengthened you with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle ...." 5:110
"Say: The Holy spirit has revealed it from your Lord with the truth, that it may establish those who believe and as a guidance and good news for those who submit" 16:102

Ill give it a read hopefully when im free

 

[dan964]

[1]John 14 and John 16 are some of the few passages, where Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit in great detail.
[2] You are correct to say that in Islam, the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel (not sure how many people hold to this though, so don't quote me on it)
[3] Here is a response to this idea (more so a dialogue or debate):
I have put both sides in for some balance
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/spirit.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/umar_spirit.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20061205230037/http://www.towardsislam.com/umar/CounterSSOnHS.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/umar_spirit2.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20080723...Who_is_the_Holy_Spirit/Who_is_the_Holy_Spirit
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/umar_spirit3.htm



http://www.answering-christianity.com/


Random Extra:
I have also seen some interpretations of 5:110 amongst other verses of the Quran above that other Christians have used to say the Quran supports Christian teaching (specifically the Trinity in the case mentioned). But as I myself am not familiar with the Quran too much, I will not being doing such other than linking it occasionally; nor do I feel the need to interpret the Quran in a way such that it supports my beliefs.

 

[Drsoccerball]

[1]John 14 and John 16 are some of the few passages, where Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit in great detail.
[2] You are correct to say that in Islam, the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel (not sure how many people hold to this though, so don't quote me on it)
[3] Here is a response to this idea:
http://antiochbeliever.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/is-gabriel-holy-spirit.html

I have also seen some interpretations of 5:110 amongst other verses of the Quran above that other Christians have used to say the Quran supports Christian teaching (specifically the Trinity in the case mentioned). But as I myself am not familiar with the Quran too much, I will not being doing such other than linking it occasionally; nor do I feel the need to interpret the Quran in a way such that it supports my beliefs.

The bible doesnt have the word trinity btw. Ironically the Quran does When you say people say these verses support the trinity it is said:

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Nafs in arabic is like conscience it doesnt mean soul...

"Muslims believe Gabriel is the Holy Spirit of Allah" WOT... not as in Gods spirit...

It says MIN ROUH when referring to God's spirit. Min is like a respect word for My
It say ROUHHIL QUODUS when referring to the Holy Spirit.

From this we can deduce that God's "spirit" and the "Holy spirit" are two different things ( Thankgod i can read arabic and understand it a tiny bit ahaha)

What im thinking God's "spirit" is, is the attributes such as mercy, compassion, love, knowledge etc...
Dont quote me on that one not too sure but im pretty sure thats what it means

PS: Brother lets keep our conversation on a hold i really have to study ahahah D:

 

[iBibah]

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." 3:64 So we quote your scriptures and show you through your scriptures since according to you the Quran has no authority. So we show you in your book of authority where it writes these things.

Prophet :"a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration."

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17 Would he really say this if he wasn't a prophet?

Hmmm and what was he fulfilling?

And my mistake, I'm not saying he didnt act as a prophet, I am saying he is not JUST a prophet.

Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.

Does not undermine His divinity.

Luke 24:19 “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people”

Christ = Christos in greek. Christos is the Annointed One, aka the Messiah. The messiah they awaited would fulfill the three roles of Priest, Prophet and King. No one is denying he is a prophet, Christians simply believe He is much more.

John 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

Jesus and the Father, while two distinct realities of one God, had separate wills. No dispute about that.

John 7:16 “Jesus answered them and said, ‘My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.’”

Same as above.

John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak.”

Same as above.

Showing that Jesus had two wills, His own and the Fathers does not undermine His Divinity.

Im surprised this is being discussed here, perhaps a separate thread so that this one keeps its purpose?

 

[braintic]

My book says A.

Well your book is wrong, because my book says B.

Your book is untruthful - only my book tells the truth.

How do you know that?

Because my book says it speaks the truth.

My book also says it speaks the truth, and my book trumps yours because it is the only one that tells the truth.

...........


Is there any way of telling who is the christian and who is the muslim in this conversation?
And does either even realise that they have abandoned all logic, and are merely making assertions?

 

[Drsoccerball]

My book says A.

Well your book is wrong, because my book says B.

Your book is untruthful - only my book tells the truth.

How do you know that?

Because my book says it speaks the truth.

My book also says it speaks the truth, and my book trumps yours because it is the only one that tells the truth.

...........


Is there any way of telling who is the christian and who is the muslim in this conversation?
And does either even realise that they have abandoned all logic, and are merely making assertions?

They said that their books right so im showing from their book what theyre saying is inconsistent to what it says...

 

[braintic]

They said that their books right so im showing from their book what theyre saying is inconsistent to what it says...

Well, its pretty hard to keep a fabricated story consistent. But I'm sure that problem is not peculiar to the bible. You follow the old testament, right?

 

[Drsoccerball]

Well, its pretty hard to keep a fabricated story consistent. But I'm sure that problem is not peculiar to the bible. You follow the old testament, right?

I follow the Quran

 

[braintic]

I follow the Quran

Isn't that based on the old testament, even if you don't call it that?