• Congratulations to the Class of 2024 on your results!
    Let us know how you went here
    Got a question about your uni preferences? Ask us here

Euthanasia (1 Viewer)

Should euthanasia be legalised in Australia?

  • No it shouldn't

    Votes: 18 30.0%
  • Yes it should

    Votes: 42 70.0%

  • Total voters
    60

John McCain

Horse liberty
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
473
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

For the same reason I would stop a friend from cutting off a limb, trying to fly from their balcony, branding themself with an esoteric symbol, or similar, in the midst of an exteme manic, depressive or psychotic episode. I assume that there exists some semblance of a stable personal core which can be disrupted, and that such acts constitute a form of self-harm which they would otherwise want to avoid in a typical/normal/lucid state. Granted, 'normality' is an entirely fuzzy concept, but I don't think that vagueness leads me to a particularly difficult position - it simply means that we have to accept grey area cases in the fuzzy zone which will probably depend on ideology and public debate. I certainly don't think that I am being controversial given the way that we act towards children, i.e. with a thorough paternalism in which we prevent them from engaging in certain activities (say, swimming in deep surf when unable to tread water, touching hot stove tops, driving in the CBD during rush hour) with their 'best interests' in mind, or something of this variety.
Yeah I certainly respect the grey areas involved. I like to make a strong statement that anyone should be able to end their lives, but such extremism probably undermines any respect for my position.

Say your friend did want to cut off their arm though, there's a point at which you must be willing to concede 'okay this is now part of their stable personal core', and let them go through with the action.

This is probably best assessed by a medical professional, but applying consistently independent judgement of what is in the patients rational interest seems to be problematic. I think many medical practitioners in assessing a patient's will to undertake such an act, are often biased to see what they want to see, many doctors hold values similar to the old hippocratic oath, that they could never choose to allow a patient to harm themselves.

There often seems to be an implication in the debate, and I've heard it reinforced by some doctors, that a depressed person should never be able to access euthanasia, even among the terminally ill. Given the pervasiveness of depression, especially among the elderly and ill, this is a major issue. The implication that a depressed person cannot possibly make a rational decision, you're overriding someones rights in a huge way and potentially causing tremendous harm based on a very simplistic understanding of how capable individuals affected by mental illness are at making a judgement to live or otherwise.
 

SylviaB

Just Bee Yourself 🐝
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
6,909
Location
Lidcombe
Gender
Female
HSC
2021
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

if you don't have the freedom to end your own life, what freedom do you truly have at all

government: "oh nah sorry we're forcing you to stay alive against your will kk lol"
 
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
687
Location
NSW
Gender
Female
HSC
2009
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

For the same reason I would stop a friend from cutting off a limb, trying to fly from their balcony, branding themself with an esoteric symbol, or similar, in the midst of an exteme manic, depressive or psychotic episode. I assume that there exists some semblance of a stable personal core which can be disrupted, and that such acts constitute a form of self-harm which they would otherwise want to avoid in a typical/normal/lucid state. Granted, 'normality' is an entirely fuzzy concept, but I don't think that vagueness leads me to a particularly difficult position - it simply means that we have to accept grey area cases in the fuzzy zone which will probably depend on ideology and public debate. I certainly don't think that I am being controversial given the way that we act towards children, i.e. with a thorough paternalism in which we prevent them from engaging in certain activities (say, swimming in deep surf when unable to tread water, touching hot stove tops, driving in the CBD during rush hour) with their 'best interests' in mind, or something of this variety.
This is an interesting issue, and one I've talked about quite a lot. At first, I thought that there should be no way that people who were chronically mentally ill should be allowed euthanasia. But then I started thinking about it more. I agree with KFunk's point about there being times when you really need to protect people from themselves, and that doing so would mean that they could continue their lives normally once their psychosis or whatever was under control. I guess the thing is that many mental illnesses have a chance of treatment, and the notion that is very often attached to euthanasia is that it is given to people who really can't be treated beyond being kept comfortable. But what if someone had been depressed for a really, really long time, and just wanted out?

In June 1994 the Supreme Court of the Netherlands delivered its judgment in the Chabot case.(155) The case involved the prosecution of a psychiatrist who had assisted the suicide of one of his patients. The patient, Ms B, was not suffering from any physical illness. She was a 50 year old woman who had a 20 year history of depression. Her very unhappy personal life, including a violent marriage and the death of one of her sons by suicide and of the other from cancer, had resulted in her abandoning any wish to go on living. Psychiatric treatment had not helped her and she had made at least one attempt at committing suicide. For several years she had made it known to other people - including her sister, friends and her family doctor - that she wished to die, 'but in a humane way which would not confront others involuntarily with her suicide'.(156) In 1991 Ms B approached the Dutch Federation for Voluntary Euthanasia who referred her to the defendant, Dr Chabot. He concluded that she was not suffering from a psychiatric illness or a major depressive episode, but rather that she had an adjustment disorder 'consisting of a depressed mood, without psychotic signs' arising from bereavement. Her condition was in principle treatable but the chance of success was small. Dr Chabot tried to persuade Ms B to accept some form of therapy but she refused. She asked him instead to assist her suicide.

Dr Chabot was of the opinion that Ms B was experiencing intense, long-term psychic suffering with no prospect of improvement. He was also of the opinion that her explicit and clearly expressed request for assistance with suicide was well-considered, and based on understanding of her situation and the consequences of her decision. He further believed that her rejection of therapy was well-considered. He consulted seven independent experts(157) who all agreed with his assessment of Ms B's situation. None of the doctors consulted by Dr Chabot examined Ms B.

In September 1991, Dr Chabot helped Ms B commit suicide by prescribing a lethal dose of drugs. She took these drugs in the presence of Dr Chabot, a general practitioner and a friend. Dr Chabot reported her death to the local coroner as death by physician-assisted suicide. He was prosecuted under Article 294 of the Penal Code. In April 1993 the District Court in Assen applied the defence of necessity and found him not guilty of this offence. The Court of Appeals in Leeuwarden upheld the trial court's decision in September 1993. The Dutch Supreme Court, however, overturned the rulings of the lower courts. It concluded that the defence of necessity should have been rejected in this case and accordingly found Dr Chabot guilty as charged.

In the course of its judgment the Supreme Court stated the following:

the necessity defence is not limited to cases where the patient is in the terminal phase of an illness of somatic (physical) origin.
the necessity defence can also apply where a patient's suffering is entirely of a non-somatic origin (ie is mental suffering only, rather than suffering due to physical pain). A psychiatric patient's wish to die therefore can be legally considered the result of a competent and voluntary judgement.(158) Further, the suffering of a psychiatric patient can be legally considered 'lacking any prospect for improvement' if the patient has refused a realistic therapeutic alternative.
the courts must approach cases where the necessity defence is said to be based on non-somatic suffering 'with exceptional care'. Accordingly, the defence cannot be invoked in these cases unless the patient has been examined by an independent colleague/medical expert.(159)
Dr Chabot was convicted under Article 294, therefore, not because the defence of necessity could not apply in a situation where a patient's suffering was of the kind experienced by Ms B. Rather it was because he had not ensured that Ms B was actually examined by another doctor before he assisted her suicide.

Despite finding Dr Chabot guilty, in view of 'the person of the defendant and the circumstances in which the offence was committed', the Supreme Court declined to impose any punishment. In February 1995, however, Dr Chabot was reprimanded by a Medical Disciplinary Tribunal which concluded that his behaviour had 'undermined confidence in the medical profession'.(160)

In September 1994 the Dutch government revised its prosecutorial guidelines to reflect the holdings of the Supreme Court. If a patient has a psychiatric disorder, the guidelines now require the doctor who receives the request for physician-assisted suicide or active voluntary euthanasia to have the patient examined by at least two other doctors, one of whom must be a psychiatrist. The government also responded to the Supreme Court's ruling by dropping 11 of 15 pending prosecutions in relation to cases where the patient was not in the 'terminal phase' of a somatic illness.(161)

Like many other developments in the Netherlands relating to the regulation of the practice of euthanasia, the Chabot case has been used to found arguments that lead to opposing conclusions. Some commentators view the case as evidence that once the law begins to allow doctors to perform physician-assisted suicide and active voluntary euthanasia, even in strictly and narrowly defined circumstances, the categories of patients who may be legally euthanased will inevitably expand. Thus, it is claimed, the Chabot case is 'another step down the slippery slope' towards a situation where euthanasia is tolerated and practised in an (even more) unacceptably wide range of circumstances, including situations where the patient has not requested death.

Other commentators acknowledge that the Chabot case raises the real possibility that Dutch courts may in the future 'hold assistance with suicide justifiable in several categories of cases in which the person concerned is not "sick" at all (eg the case of very elderly persons who are incapacitated in various ways and simply "tired of life")' and that '[f]rom there it is only a small additional step to the case in which the person concerned is not suffering at all at the time the request is made but, in anticipation of coming deterioration, wants to be in a position to choose the time of death in advance of becoming incapacitated and dependent'.(162) They reject the claim, however, that such developments necessarily will result in an increase in the incidence of involuntary euthanasia. Some commentators also describe the Chabot case as a development that tightens the restrictions on the practice of euthanasia in the Netherlands. They argue that the Supreme Court's ruling clarifies the circumstances in which it is not acceptable (as well as the circumstances in which it is acceptable) for a doctor to help a psychiatric patient commit suicide.
Breakdown on Dutch euthanasia

Essentially, I feel much less comfortable with euthanasia for purely psychiatric patients than I do for terminally ill patients. I think it's much harder to draw the line. There is no doubt that mentally ill people need to be helped as much as possible, and be helped to return to their normal lives. But there could also be a point where we don't save them from themselves. At what point do we seriously consider their request? After 4 attempts at suicide? 5? That would be the main issue I would have with euthanasia for the mentally ill.
 
Last edited:

John McCain

Horse liberty
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
473
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

if you don't have the freedom to end your own life, what freedom do you truly have at all

government: "oh nah sorry we're forcing you to stay alive against your will kk lol"
Anyone who has ever advocated reducing the number of people on unemployment benefits, should support the right of individuals to end their lives.

If you are forcing someone to go on living, but you are not willing to provide them with unconditional financial support to do so, you're effectively practicing slavery.
 

Allahu Akbar

Banned
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
25
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

OMG ya allah what am I reading on here. Satan is posting on the forums
 

John McCain

Horse liberty
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
473
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

Essentially, I feel much less comfortable with euthanasia for purely psychiatric patients than I do for terminally ill patients. I think it's much harder to draw the line. There is no doubt that mentally ill people need to be helped as much as possible, and be helped to return to their normal lives. But there could also be a point where we don't save them from themselves. At what point do we seriously consider their request? After 4 attempts at suicide? 5? That would be the main issue I would have with euthanasia for the mentally ill.
You're looking at this from the perspective of 'what harm may be caused by allowing someone to kill themselves who would have recovered'?

I look at it as 'how much unnecessary suffering might we cause if we don't let someone with a sincere and well founded wish to end their life do so'?

While both are valid and challenging ethical questions, I think the second question, and it's implications are often belittled, and made out as much less important than the first question. People don't take the terrible, ongoing suffering of those who really do want to die seriously. People aren't even given the opportunity to seriously discuss and consider whether non-existence might be the best option for their future.

The second question also raises all the harm and suffering caused by botched suicide attempts. No one with a serious wish to die should have to attempt it more than once.
 

katie tully

ashleey luvs roosters
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
5,213
Location
My wrist is limp
Gender
Female
HSC
2005
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

Oh yeah and I also agree with terminating the lives of people who are braindead, i.e. that Terri Schriver chick and that guy in perth who was allowed to refuse being fed because he was a quadraplegic, so I guess it doesn't *have* to be terminal.
 
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
687
Location
NSW
Gender
Female
HSC
2009
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

While both are valid and challenging ethical questions, I think the second question, and it's implications are often belittled, and made out as much less important than the first question. People don't take the terrible, ongoing suffering of those who really do want to die seriously. People aren't even given the opportunity to seriously discuss and consider whether non-existence might be the best option for their future.

The second question also raises all the harm and suffering caused by botched suicide attempts. No one with a serious wish to die should have to attempt it more than once.
Yes, I agree with this. Which is why I'm willing to accept that mentally ill people should also be allowed euthanasia, I'm simply stating that I'm less comfortable with it personally, because, as I said above, they *might* recover, in a way that someone with terminal cancer would have have no chance of doing. It's much easier for me to conceive of someone whose body is shutting down having euthanasia because of this. However, as you said above, the suffering of someone can be unbearable in a way that we can never understand, and therefore, although I'm less comfortable with it, I still believe it should be allowed, essentially. I would simply wonder where we could draw the line, with regard to mentally ill people.
 

incentivation

Hmmmmm....
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
558
Location
Inner West
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

From a rights perspective, it seems paradoxical that we are able to permit an individual to discontinue treatment, however remove the right for this individual to be assisted in hastening their death. Surely, if we value the realm of private choice, this right to make decisions with regard to one's life should be absolute?

It's a common argument, but one fraught with far too much risk to maintain. Even with safeguards, such a liberal position abrogates the necessity of government to protect the most vulnerable; those who may be unable to make self-relevant decisions or those who are easily malleable in the decision making process.

The current position of the law, maintaining a distinction between active and passive euthanasia is the most appropriate position. It recognises the right of an individual to make a decision with regard to the discontinuation of treatment, whilst ensuring that no other individual bears the responsibility or onus of the death of another (Although not as black and white as this, the cessation of treatment is not considered to be an omission at law, where certain conditions are met). Suicide is no longer illegal; each individual has the authority to end their life. The implication of another within that process crosses far too many moral and legal boundaries.

The question of the classification of assisted suicide or active euthanasia as homicide (murder/manslaughter) is quite interesting. I understand Homicide as a reflection or expression of the value placed on life and liberty; it is often incorrectly perceived, in my opinion, as the realisation that only the individual, or indeed nature, has the authority to make decisions about the ending of life. However, the offence extends beyond that purpose.

It precludes decision making about life, and encompasses all form of action by another to contribute to the death of an individual. The will of that individual is not part of the consideration. However, it need not be. It is life itself, not the ability to make decisions with regard to one's life, that is protected.

Many perceive the sanctity of human life as impenetrable; those who oppose euthanasia on these grounds should equally oppose the death penalty, but that is an argument for another day.

This debate is far too complex to discuss in a few posts. If this didn't make sense, I'm coming off nightshift..
 
Last edited:

Serius

Beyond Godlike
Joined
Nov 10, 2004
Messages
3,123
Location
Wollongong
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

Many perceive the sanctity of human life as impenetrable; those who oppose euthanasia on these grounds should equally oppose the death penalty, but that is an argument for another day.
.
I do oppose the death penalty, i pretty much oppose all types of government sanctioned killing of other people. I dont know if life is "sacred" exactly, that seems to put a more religious spin on the issue, one that isnt really necessary. I dont think there is ever a situation where killing another human being could be considered a moral or just choice. Possibly choosing the lesser of two evils, thats debatable, but killing a human being is never a good thing.
 

KFunk

Psychic refugee
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
3,323
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

What is your stance on people with:
Alzheimer's
Dementia (esp. early stage dementia)

If the person decides that they want to end their life before the disease becomes too advanced, do they have the right to? (Given they're not exactly in an immediate threat of imminent death).
If not, do they have the option to decide they want to die - even when periods of lucidity are becoming thin and far between?
I actually find Alzheimer's and certain forms of dementia to be more difficult because it is almost as though a different person emerges. A more drastic example is a severe, personality-changing stroke (e.g. primarily affecting the frontal lobe of the brain). I am troubled by the idea of an advanced directive (e.g. DNR) which a person could later disagree with while in a state which is otherwise judged to be 'incompetent' (say, due to cognitive impairment). In any case, this is something of a tangent.

The decision you refer to is an incredibly difficult one, but I am certainly open to an individual deciding that they want to end their life before they reach a point of significant cognitive impairment, e.g. the point at which they can only communicate minimally and are unable to recognise most people in their life. One might feel that the person that once was has all but disappeared by this point.
 

KFunk

Psychic refugee
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
3,323
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

Say your friend did want to cut off their arm though, there's a point at which you must be willing to concede 'okay this is now part of their stable personal core', and let them go through with the action.

This is probably best assessed by a medical professional, but applying consistently independent judgement of what is in the patients rational interest seems to be problematic. I think many medical practitioners in assessing a patient's will to undertake such an act, are often biased to see what they want to see, many doctors hold values similar to the old hippocratic oath, that they could never choose to allow a patient to harm themselves.

There often seems to be an implication in the debate, and I've heard it reinforced by some doctors, that a depressed person should never be able to access euthanasia, even among the terminally ill. Given the pervasiveness of depression, especially among the elderly and ill, this is a major issue. The implication that a depressed person cannot possibly make a rational decision, you're overriding someones rights in a huge way and potentially causing tremendous harm based on a very simplistic understanding of how capable individuals affected by mental illness are at making a judgement to live or otherwise.
I am inclined to agree on the case of the arm. In fact, there have been multiple cases of this sort in which individuals have thoroughly rejected some limb or other part of their body. However, I'm not sure whether there are many surgeons out there who would consent to surgery of this sort. One way to look at it would be an extreme form of body modification (similarly, suppose that someone wants to have their lower leg cut off so that they can have a prosthesis that allows them to run faster). In general the medical profession will tend to hesistate when it comes to cases like this - firstly on the basis of Hippocratic convictions, and secondly on the basis of social mores and taboos which deem such behavior abberant, which easily translates as 'pathological' within the medical mindset (such as occured historically with homosexuality and many of the so called 'paraphilias').

I am inclined to think that this conservatism is not ill-placed when it comes to limb slicing, in which case I feel that psychiatric evaluation (or similar) should be the first port of call. I think it is unlikely that such a desire would ever be evaluated as rational in any straightforward sense (perhaps excepting the case of prosthetic 'upgrade'), and so I think it is a matter of changing orientation in order to recognise the conviction as a valid part of the individual's personality and that safe surgical intervention is an important means of respecting that person's capacity for self-direction.

I agree that depression is a very difficult case. I feel that it is important to try several forms of treatment first (pharmaceuticals, spoken therapies of which there are many, social/lifestyle interventions, electroconvulsive therapy... perhaps even modern technologies under development like transcranial magnetic stimulation and surgical deep brain stimulation). There is probably a point at which one could acknowledge that a person exists in so much misery and distress that suicide appears as a valid 'way out', but good grief you would want to know the person exceptionally well and be extremely confident in your assessment. Personally, I find depression to be one of the most difficult parts of the euthanasia discussion.
 

KFunk

Psychic refugee
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
3,323
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

This is an interesting issue, and one I've talked about quite a lot. At first, I thought that there should be no way that people who were chronically mentally ill should be allowed euthanasia. But then I started thinking about it more. I agree with KFunk's point about there being times when you really need to protect people from themselves, and that doing so would mean that they could continue their lives normally once their psychosis or whatever was under control. I guess the thing is that many mental illnesses have a chance of treatment, and the notion that is very often attached to euthanasia is that it is given to people who really can't be treated beyond being kept comfortable. But what if someone had been depressed for a really, really long time, and just wanted out?
A general way to reason about this would be to first note that arguments in favour of euthanasia are typically premised on the instrumental value of life. In other words, life is not intrinsically valuable (i.e. the classical Christian view of life as sacrosanct) but is instead instrumentally valuable in that it is only valuable insofar as it provides a means to other things which themselves are valuable - for example, positive experiences, moral actions, development of a meaningful and subjectively satisfying life narrative, and so on. To take a crude example which makes me cringe somewhat, but is nonetheless an effective explanatory tool, consider money which gains its value from the opportunities it provides within a network of exchange, in the absence of which money lacks any intrinsic worth.

On the basis of such an analysis of life as instrumentally valuable one can argue that euthanasia is reasonable whenever a person's life circumstances are dire enough to preclude whichever ends give value to a lived life. If it can be judged that (1) an individual's depression is untreatable to the best of our understanding and (2) the depressive illness in question precludes whatever ends we deem important in judging the quality of a life, then we may be able to justify euthanasia.

I will say, however, that such a judgement will (perhaps necessarily?) be rife with vagueness and extraordinary difficulty. Further, I am rather uncomfortable with 'checklist' or 'criteria' approaches to the question of whether a life is worth living (or ending?). I understand that such lists become important in terms of accountability, research and fitting into a legal framework, but I nonetheless feel that their reductive quality risks failing to grasp the subtleties of lived experience. Of course, the easy remedy is to fall back on extensive, qualitative, interpersonal assessment as one of the criteria, in which case my gripe perhaps becomes a matter of aesthetics. In any case, something feels wrong when euthanasia falls prey to the logic of administration (enter efficiency, economics, brave new world, etc. etc.).
 

jennyfromdabloc

coked up sociopath
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
735
Location
The American Gardens Building
Gender
Female
HSC
2007
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

I actually find Alzheimer's and certain forms of dementia to be more difficult because it is almost as though a different person emerges. A more drastic example is a severe, personality-changing stroke (e.g. primarily affecting the frontal lobe of the brain). I am troubled by the idea of an advanced directive (e.g. DNR) which a person could later disagree with while in a state which is otherwise judged to be 'incompetent' (say, due to cognitive impairment). In any case, this is something of a tangent.

The decision you refer to is an incredibly difficult one, but I am certainly open to an individual deciding that they want to end their life before they reach a point of significant cognitive impairment, e.g. the point at which they can only communicate minimally and are unable to recognise most people in their life. One might feel that the person that once was has all but disappeared by this point.
How does one judge which state of mind, or "person that emerges" is the "true" person? This sort of logic could be extended to almost any situation to suggest that any decision a person makes is not their "true" intention, and that therefore someone else should decide on their behalf.

We already have a way to deal with this problem very effectively; its called power of attorney.

People can choose to anticipate that they may find themselves in an unexpected state of mind and make provisions for it. For instance, a contract can be made that says if I am diagnosed with "x, y or z condition, Person A may restrain me for a given period of time in order to prevent me from committing suicide."

There is absolutely no reason to impose a standard set of rules on everyone which they never agreed to, and which restricts their right to die. Putting the decision in the hands of doctors is an absolute joke that provides nothing more than a sick veneer of legitimacy. A doctor is trained to understand the human body and in some cases the mind based on what they can observe. They are not mind readers, and they do not possess any unique wisdom or emotional intelligence that makes them better judges of who has a right to live and die than anyone else on this planet. To force a suffering person to live in pain (physical or emotional) is a cruel, despicable affront to their most basic human dignity.

Finally, if people do not use contracts to make such provisions for extenuating circumstances (which they increasingly would in a society where personal responsibility rather than government paternalism is the norm) we can still help our loved ones in their time of needs.

For example, suppose your friend is heavily intoxicated and in a highly emotional state. He is teetering the railing of his 20th floor balcony threatening to jump. Is it legitimate, according to libertarians, to restrain him?

The answer is yes, but there is a risk. You can remove him by force from the balcony and lock him in his own apartment until he sobers up. You suspect he will thank you for it in the morning. Of course there is still the risk that he will wake up and be angry at you, and if this is the case he has a right to charge you will assault. But this scenario seems very unlikely (especially if you know your friend well), and is a risk worth taking to save your friend's life.
 
Last edited:

KFunk

Psychic refugee
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
3,323
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

People can choose to anticipate that they may find themselves in an unexpected state of mind and make provisions for it. For instance, a contract can be made that says if I am diagnosed with "x, y or z condition, Person A may restrain me for a given period of time in order to prevent me from committing suicide."
Sure, but the point I was getting at was that things seem more complicated to me when we are looking at a permanent change in an individual. This may be due to a stroke, traumatic brain injury, a traumatic experience, poisoning, and so on - essentially, anything which might generate a permanent, or 'untreatable', change in personality. Self-legislation makes some sense when we talk about temporary intoxication, or similar, but to me seems questionable in the context of a permanent change in personality, in which case it is as though one person is removing the autonomy of some latter person who each just happen to inhabit the same bodily region of the world.

Part of the problem is that we commonly assume that a single person accrues about a single body, which acts as a common locus. In everyday circumstances this heuristic works perfectly well. However, once we introduce fractured persons (for lack of a better term), such as arise in extreme bipolar disorder and other paroxysmal psychotic disorders, multiple personality disorder and forms of irreversible brain injury mentioned above, it becomes harder to consider the body as house to a single unstable individual. The idea of a fractured, or plural, person also poses great challenge to the legal system, especially in its more retributive modes - suppose that in a rare case of multiple personality disorder one such personality commits a heinous crime. No doubt considerations of public safety emplore us to sequester this violent individual, but what becomes of all the other persons housed within the same physical form?

Personally I feel that such considerations ought to be deeply troubling for any legal framework which maintains a 'one body, one person' dogma, as well as certain libertarian ethics which place all emphasis on the will of the individual without fully acknowledging the theoretical and empirical vagueness of this will, especially once the conditions of personhood are shown to be problematic.
 
Last edited:

jennyfromdabloc

coked up sociopath
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
735
Location
The American Gardens Building
Gender
Female
HSC
2007
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

Sure, but the point I was getting at was that things seem more complicated to me when we are looking at a permanent change in an individual. This may be due to a stroke, traumatic brain injury, a traumatic experience, poisoning, and so on - essentially, anything which might generate a permanent, or 'untreatable', change in personality. Self-legislation makes some sense when we talk about temporary intoxication, or similar, but to me seems questionable in the context of a permanent change in personality, in which case it is as though one person is removing the autonomy of some latter person who each just happen to inhabit the same bodily region of the world.

Part of the problem is that we commonly assume that a single person accrues about a single body, which acts as a common locus. In everyday circumstances this heuristic works perfectly well. However, once we introduce fractured persons (for lack of a better term), such as arise in extreme bipolar disorder and other paroxysmal psychotic disorders, multiple personality disorder and forms of irreversible brain injury mentioned above, it becomes harder to consider the body as house to a single unstable individual. The idea of a fractured, or plural, person also poses great challenge to the legal system, especially in its more retributive modes - suppose that in a rare case of multiple personality disorder one such personality commits a heinous crime. No doubt considerations of public safety emplore us to sequester this violent individual, but what becomes of all the other persons housed within the same physical form?

Personally I feel that such considerations ought to be deeply troubling for any legal framework which maintains a 'one body, one person' dogma, as well as certain libertarian ethics which place all emphasis on the will of the individual without fully acknowledging the theoretical and empirical vagueness of this will, especially once the conditions of personhood are shown to be problematic.
Some very interesting points, though they all fail as a criticism of libertarian theory.

Under any system, libertarian or statist, there is a very real problem of interpreting the true intentions of certain mentally ill individuals. All we can do is try and interpret their wishes as best we can.

What makes you think the government can do this any better than private organizations?
 

KFunk

Psychic refugee
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
3,323
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Re: Questions about euthanasia...

Under any system, libertarian or statist, there is a very real problem of interpreting the true intentions of certain mentally ill individuals. All we can do is try and interpret their wishes as best we can.

What makes you think the government can do this any better than private organizations?
It doesn't matter so much whether such interpretation is best undertaken by government or private organisations. The simple suggestion that an external body could better understand the 'best interests' of a person than that person themself is already anathema to the libertarian doctrine of absolute autonomy. Unless the individual consents to coercion by the government or private institution a libertarian theory will typically baulk at the suggestion of such interference. Thus the issue is not one of public versus private so much as the limitations of individual autonomy. My personal feeling is that the core weakness of libertarianism is most clearly shown in situations where autonomy breaks down - say, due to cognitive deficits, lack of knowledge, inescapable coercion and biases (due to genes and/or upbringing), behavioral conditioning, and so on. Many of these hint at the vagueness of the boundary between self and world. It is therefore unsurprising that intersubjectivity, and other such alternatives to the isolated liberal/Cartesian self, generally do not figure into the libertarian vocabulary.

Certainly I favour government over private organisations in certain instances on the basis of the public means of legitimation which may be attached to government (obviously the libertarian deems private choice in an open market to be sufficient, but I tend to feel that there is something valuable in the republican ideal of public politcal process). In any case, I view this as a matter seperate to the issue of the limits of autonomy and personhood.
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
2,180
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Ok we've had one about the death penalty, so what about Euthanasia.
(ps. there are bound to be differing views. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so if someone posts something you don't agree with don't have a go at them just let people have their own opinion)
I think everyone should have the right to decide if they want to die or not. Who are we to stop someone from making their own decisions?
I don't know why it's illegal. I reckon it should be allowed in Australia, but regulated by an independent statutory office or something idk
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top