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Zero Tolerance or Harm Minimisation? (2 Viewers)

katie tully

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basically Dom, it comes down to
a. I agree with harm minimization
b. I disagree with militant policing of drug users
c. I support preventative programs and rehabilitation over jail terms. Generally only in the event that somebody wants it, or if they've been busted resorting to other crimes (theft, etc) to support their habit

In which case, I don't see why it would matter if I do have an "irrational" fear of drugs and drug use.
 

katie tully

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I think such a disdain is a pretty common and normal feeling. It ties into human valuation of potential, worth, and waste. People generally hate seeing somebody waste their life (whatever that means), and while what the definition of a 'waste of a life' is is very debatable, seeing somebody literally physically waste away on drugs is a pretty powerful and uniformly interpreted image. Not many people would agree it's a desirable or positive state for a human to be in.

And being close to such people on a daily basis as you are no doubt compounds that disdain.
It's not a blanket statement that I hate these people, and usually hatred only occurs after I've had a particularly nasty encounter with them.

For the most part it's great sadness that for whatever reason, they spend their days smelling like they've not showered for 6 months, injecting shit into whatever is left of their circulatory system and losing their kids/prospects in the process.

It's that part of me that finds it hard to reconcile with facilitating drug use, but I can't argue against the fact that harm minimization programs have lead to greater outcomes for these people than militant policing and jail. The latter of which usually increases drug use.
 

katie tully

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Legalization will probably never happen in our lifetime, so as it stands, it's probably our only alternative. How will legalizing drugs reduce the harm associated with being an intravenous user?

Srs question, I'm interested to know.
 

katie tully

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I'm not even that hopeful with our generation, tbh. Maybe a few generations after us.


Maybe when we're 80 our grandkids will have it legalised so we can smoke a toke at happy hour. If we don't all die from being fat before that.
 

S.H.O.D.A.N.

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Legalization will probably never happen in our lifetime, so as it stands, it's probably our only alternative. How will legalizing drugs reduce the harm associated with being an intravenous user?

Srs question, I'm interested to know.
I would like you to answer this question, Dom.

In certain cases it's bewildering that the drug isn't already legalised (e.g. non-addictive drugs with a lower social and individual harm than alcohol or nicotine, such as marijuana, ecstasy, or GHB).
 

S.H.O.D.A.N.

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Drug users would know exactly what they are getting when they buy drugs. The purity and content of the drugs would be fully known. Most overdoses occur due to impurities or to people misjudging the strength of the drugs they are taking. Legalization would eliminate this.
So it might lower the overdose rate (nowhere near all overdoses are due to misjudgement), but it would do nothing to reduce the large social, criminal and individual harm of certain drugs (IV and smoked stims/opiates specifically)?
 

volition

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It could also end a lot of drug gang related crime, since drugs would now be made by legitimate businesses
 

SylviaB

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Perspective #1:
Certain drugs are illegal for a reason -- they're so dangerous that there is no safe way to have them in our society.
It's not the government's role to protect people from themselves. If people want to risk taking dangerous drugs, it should be their choice to.
And most of the danger to society from drugs stem from them being illegal.


We have to do everything possible to keep illegal drugs out of the country and off the streets. We need to cut off the supply of drugs by targeting traffickers and dealers, both wholesalers and street corner drug dealers. Tougher enforcement and stricter sentencing of dealers and users helped to deal with the crack cocaine epidemic of the 1990s and kept overall drug use at stable levels. To win the war on drugs, we need to pursue this strategy aggressively, making every effort to identify, prosecute, and imprison drug dealers, thus cutting off the drug supply both at home and abroad.
1. This DOES NOT WORK.
2. It does more harm than good.
3.Want put a stop to gang violence? Legalise drugs, because that's how gangs get their money.
3. IT DOESN'T WORK.

If it's their own concern, would you send a state-funded ambulance to pick up someone who had reportedly had a (presumably non-lethal) drug overdose?
hey well if they don't have ambulance cover then it's coming out their pockets, duh.
 

Ben Netanyahu

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shodan said:
In certain cases it's bewildering that the drug isn't already legalised (e.g. non-addictive drugs with a lower social and individual harm than alcohol or nicotine, such as marijuana, ecstasy, or GHB).
You're doing yourself and our side no favours by embarking on an argument that has a comparison to nicotine and alcohol as it's prime basis.
 

S.H.O.D.A.N.

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You're doing yourself and our side no favours by embarking on an argument that has a comparison to nicotine and alcohol as it's prime basis.
Thinks for the input resident terrorist supporter. Unfortunately for you, I have no "side", and even if I did I would hardly take image tips from somebody who quite openly and sincerely posted in support of the Mumbai terrorists while lamenting that they didn't target more Jews.

I simply desire rationalisation of drug laws, which is a perfectly admirable goal. If you happen to believe otherwise, kindly fuck off. No, actually, just fuck off either way. That sentence you single out was no-where near my 'prime basis' for desiring this, which you could probably figure out by, oh I don't know, bothering to read this thread.

The fact is, marijuana smoking is as dangerous (it's all in the lungs) as nicotine but nowhere near as addictive (nicotine being the most addictive recreational drug). GHB is naturally produced in the brain, similar in effect to alcohol, nowhere near as addictive, and doesn't cause hangovers - it's clinically used to treat insomnia, depression and alcholism. Ecstasy while closely related to amphetamines, is not used to get high in the traditional sense, and hence isn't re-dosed anywhere near as often - it also doesn't exhibit much addictive potential in practice. Eccy is typically rated well below alcohol and nicotine in terms of social and individual damage.

Considering all these factors, it makes a whole lot of sense to make people aware of the immense hypocrisies in drug legislation when things as dangerous as alcohol and nicotine are perfectly legal while drugs with half the harm potential are criminalised. It is perfectly reasonable to expect other people to seek rational and common sense drug laws.

Edit: "A UK parliamentary committee commissioned report found the use of GHB to be less dangerous than tobacco and alcohol in social harms, physical harm and addiction." So why is it illegal where alcohol and tobacco are not?
 
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incentivation

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The most harmful drug in terms of costs borne onto the health system and criminal justice system is alcohol. Which of course is legal.

Amounts are measured and each individual is aware of the implications of ingesting excessive amounts. Yet the problems still exist.

On topic though, I have moderated slightly.

I wouldn't oppose the legalisation of certain 'less harmful substances' so long as there had been a comprehensive and scientifically based review on the impact of such a policy, and the potential savings/implications for the economy. If such a review/inquiry concluded that costs would be reduced (social and economic), then I don't see why we should continue with the status quo.

It would be interesting to see where the new black markets would develop. There will always be those looking to exploit, and will move on to new 'industries' accordingly.
 

incentivation

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Wrong. There are only black markets where governments interfere. If we had total legalisation (and no taxes on the drugs) there would be no black markets, just as there is no black market for chairs, or hamburgers, or hats ect, ect.

People don't sell drugs because they are evil bastards who specifically want to exploit others. They do it because there is an incentive to do so in the form of the potential for huge, fast profits. Legalise drugs and these perverse intensives disappear.
By exploit, I meant the system (the law and the people).
 

Ben Netanyahu

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shodan said:
Thinks for the input resident terrorist supporter. Unfortunately for you, I have no "side", and even if I did I would hardly take image tips from somebody who quite openly and sincerely posted in support of the Mumbai terrorists while lamenting that they didn't target more Jews.
fking jews.

I simply desire rationalisation of drug laws, which is a perfectly admirable goal. If you happen to believe otherwise, kindly fuck off. No, actually, just fuck off either way. That sentence you single out was no-where near my 'prime basis' for desiring this, which you could probably figure out by, oh I don't know, bothering to read this thread.

...

Considering all these factors, it makes a whole lot of sense to make people aware of the immense hypocrisies in drug legislation when things as dangerous as alcohol and nicotine are perfectly legal while drugs with half the harm potential are criminalised. It is perfectly reasonable to expect other people to seek rational and common sense drug laws.
You stupid dickhead. You utter moron. I've been posting in every single one of these threads as a staunch supporter of the legalisation of all drugs (well, bar one or two). I know you read my posts because I always see you offering commentary on each, so don't use that as an excuse.

Point is that you try to justify the legalisation of certain drugs because they're less harmful than nicotine and alcohol, and therefore must be legalised. That's a load of tosh. MDMA is less harmful than nicotine, yeah, but nicotine in the form of smoking is one of the most fucking dangerous drugs there is.

I, the government, propose that we criminalise nicotine. You now don't have much of a case for the legalisation of the drugs you mentioned, since you thought they should only be legalised because nicotine and alcohol were too.

I think that arguments concerning choice and freedom are a much wiser approach. Provided that legalised drugs don't pose a threat to the freedom and safety of those who choose to steer clear (hello crystal meth & PCP).

Now to confront various inaccuracies because, let's face it, I know moar about this than you. :D

The fact is, marijuana smoking is as dangerous (it's all in the lungs) as nicotine but nowhere near as addictive (nicotine being the most addictive recreational drug).
No it's not the most addictive nor the most harmful.



GHB is naturally produced in the brain,
lol wtf? it's found in minute amounts and naturally produced GHB certainly IS NOT A DRUG. You stupid fuck.

it's clinically used to treat insomnia, depression and alcholism.
Ok cool so GHB is good for those things (I'm supposing that what you've said is true). This is not a valid argument for its legalisation for recreational use. Keep in mind I think that it should be allowed recreationally, I'm just pointing out that you're a dud.

Ecstasy while closely related to amphetamines,
hehehe. ecstacy is an amphetamine silly! you really don't know wot ur on about. tehehehehehe! :rofl:

is not used to get high in the traditional sense,
What the fuck does that even mean?

isn't re-dosed anywhere near as often
Do you have any proof of this? I'm not doubting it, and I'm interested.
 

dieburndie

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100% support Dom's position on drugs as usual. This time I will contribute to what I consider to be an extremely important social issue.
It's not a blanket statement that I hate these people, and usually hatred only occurs after I've had a particularly nasty encounter with them.

For the most part it's great sadness that for whatever reason, they spend their days smelling like they've not showered for 6 months, injecting shit into whatever is left of their circulatory system and losing their kids/prospects in the process.

It's that part of me that finds it hard to reconcile with facilitating drug use, but I can't argue against the fact that harm minimization programs have lead to greater outcomes for these people than militant policing and jail. The latter of which usually increases drug use.
You using your experiences with "these people" to mould your opinion of certain drugs is flawed to the point of absurdity (the fact that it is disturbingly common does not change this). Yes, the unfortunate reality is that drug addicts are frequently relegated to the lowest tier in Australian society, and are often plagued by financial difficulties, homelessness, social problems and mental illness. However, with VERY few exceptions this is not because of the intrinsic effects of drug use. It is the criminal and social status of 'illicit' drugs that has had this outcome. Adopting this position on certain substances and not others, due to an either negligible or entirely non-existent distinction being made, has forced users to become criminals, associate with worse criminals, use an unreliable product with no standards applied to its manufacture or sale, and most importantly pay an enormous premium to do so.
Applying this treatment to ANY desirable product would result in its users experiencing the same social effects.
This is true for every commonly used, currently illegal drug. Moderate dosages, legal and standardised production and sale, as well as social acceptance of drug use would not just lower the occurrence of these negative effects. It would all but ELIMINATE them.

You are acknowledging your previous view was a result of misinformation. You should continue doing this and dispose of the garbage you and everyone else has been fed about drugs by malevolent and insane governments which have much to gain from keeping you stupid.

On topic though, I have moderated slightly.

I wouldn't oppose the legalisation of certain 'less harmful substances' so long as there had been a comprehensive and scientifically based review on the impact of such a policy, and the potential savings/implications for the economy. If such a review/inquiry concluded that costs would be reduced (social and economic), then I don't see why we should continue with the status quo.

It would be interesting to see where the new black markets would develop. There will always be those looking to exploit, and will move on to new 'industries' accordingly.
Where do you draw the line? What exact harms are you referring to?
Heroin in pure form at set dosages is one of the safest drugs around. The same is correct for almost every currently criminalised drug worth using.

What criteria do you use to decide which substances the government should punish people for using?

The thing is, EVEN IF it is correct that these drugs used ALONE are severely harmful to users; THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL TO BE GAINED BY CRIMINALISING CONSUMERS AND SALESPEOPLE, as opposed to just the criminal behaviour affecting others that supposedly results from drug addiction.

incentivation, maybe you should actually read up on subjects such as this which you decide to weigh in on, instead of taking yet another one of your positions directly from legal and political material which blindly accepts the same overwhelmingly incorrect premises that have been shoved down the throats of individuals in supposedly free and educated societies for the last century.
 

katie tully

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You using your experiences with "these people" to mould your opinion of certain drugs is flawed to the point of absurdity (the fact that it is disturbingly common does not change this). Yes, the unfortunate reality is that drug addicts are frequently relegated to the lowest tier in Australian society, and are often plagued by financial difficulties, homelessness, social problems and mental illness. However, with VERY few exceptions this is not because of the intrinsic effects of drug use. It is the criminal and social status of 'illicit' drugs that has had this outcome. Adopting this position on certain substances and not others, due to an either negligible or entirely non-existent distinction being made, has forced users to become criminals, associate with worse criminals, use an unreliable product with no standards applied to its manufacture or sale, and most importantly pay an enormous premium to do so.
Applying this treatment to ANY desirable product would result in its users experiencing the same social effects.
This is true for every commonly used, currently illegal drug. Moderate dosages, legal and standardised production and sale, as well as social acceptance of drug use would not just lower the occurrence of these negative effects. It would all but ELIMINATE them.

You are acknowledging your previous view was a result of misinformation. You should continue doing this and dispose of the garbage you and everyone else has been fed about drugs by malevolent and insane governments which have much to gain from keeping you stupid.
Nah, I'll keep my views thanks.

Just because I agree with harm minimisation doesn't mean I have to like drug use or drugs. Got nothing to do with government brainwashing, which is apparently the only reason you and Dom can come up with for people not liking drugs.

Whatever man, that was a fairly big rant for nothing, yeah?
 

katie tully

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You're entitled to whatever views you please, but if you have a genuine intellectual curiosity and a desire to pursue the truth, you may want to consider how your views have been shaped, as well as alternatives to your preconceived views.

Stephen and I can't possibly know how your particular viewpoint has been shaped, but we still have a valid point that the government invests large amount of resources in education and advertising campaigns that present drug as being extremely dangerous, a view which I would say is dishonestly exaggerated in order to justify this ludicrous war on drugs.

You have really taken this whole discussion on a tangent. What you said simply reminded me of a broad problem of people being brainwashed by government propaganda and holding a view of illegal drugs that is disproportionately negative compared to their view of alcohol, nicotine and prescription drugs. Your particular views, and how they were conceived, are quite irrelevant.
It has nothing to do with the government. I think the amount of money spent on government incentives to push the idea that all drugs are evil and all drug users are evil could definitely be better spent.

I really didn't get why Stephen had to type all of that and address it to me, when I agree with 99% of it.

I don't know why I feel so strongly against the use of drugs, I just do. But given my stance on harm minimization and perhaps legalization, I think it's fairly irrelevant.
 

dieburndie

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Nah, I'll keep my views thanks.

Just because I agree with harm minimisation doesn't mean I have to like drug use or drugs. Got nothing to do with government brainwashing, which is apparently the only reason you and Dom can come up with for people not liking drugs.

Whatever man, that was a fairly big rant for nothing, yeah?
Why don't you like drug use or drugs then?
Are you going to address any of my points?
It's one or the other, either you can construct a coherent argument supporting your view, or you have to allow for the possibility that you've been brainwashed to at least some extent.

Remember, as much as confused statists such as yourself like to believe otherwise, all drugs being entirely legal is the default position.
The burden of proof in explaining why (any) drugs should be criminalised is on YOU.
 

katie tully

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You're entitled to whatever views you please, but if you have a genuine intellectual curiosity and a desire to pursue the truth, you may want to consider how your views have been shaped, as well as alternatives to your preconceived views.

Stephen and I can't possibly know how your particular viewpoint has been shaped, but we still have a valid point that the government invests large amount of resources in education and advertising campaigns that present drug as being extremely dangerous, a view which I would say is dishonestly exaggerated in order to justify this ludicrous war on drugs.

You have really taken this whole discussion on a tangent. What you said simply reminded me of a broad problem of people being brainwashed by government propaganda and holding a view of illegal drugs that is disproportionately negative compared to their view of alcohol, nicotine and prescription drugs. Your particular views, and how they were conceived, are quite irrelevant.
It has nothing to do with the government. I think the amount of money spent on government incentives to push the idea that all drugs are evil and all drug users are evil could definitely be better spent.

I really didn't get why Stephen had to type all of that and address it to me, when I agree with 99% of it.

I don't know why I feel so strongly against the use of drugs, I just do. But given my stance on harm minimization and perhaps legalization, I think it's fairly irrelevant.
 

Ben Netanyahu

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dieburndie said:
However, with VERY few exceptions this is not because of the intrinsic effects of drug use. It is the criminal and social status of 'illicit' drugs that has had this outcome.
Oh come on now, sir. You don't think that being a heroin bum causes a little economic disadvantage in itself? That's not my reason for posting. My reason for posting is for evidence. I don't nessecarily disagree with you and I find your stance admirable, but I do crave evidence for these sweeping assertions.

^_^

Where do you draw the line? What exact harms are you referring to?
Heroin in pure form at set dosages is one of the safest drugs around. The same is correct for almost every currently criminalised drug worth using.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I was under the impression that opiates, like all drugs I suppose, require ever increasing dosages to get the effect out of it that they want. Resistance and tolerance (I'm sure there's a word for it but it skips my mind) increase. This is fairly well known with morphine yes? So I'm supposing, without evidence, that heroin does carry this problem along with it, which you neglect to mention.

I'm being careful there because I'm not entirely sure what I'm saying is correct. And in any case, it was an aside from your main point which I agree with totally.

^_^
 

katie tully

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Why don't you like drug use or drugs then?
Are you going to address any of my points?
It's one or the other, either you can construct a coherent argument supporting your view, or you have to allow for the possibility that you've been brainwashed to at least some extent.

Remember, as much as confused statists such as yourself like to believe otherwise, all drugs being entirely legal is the default position.
The burden of proof in explaining why (any) drugs should be criminalised is on YOU.
I didn't address any of the points you twat, because I don't disagree with them.

I don't know how many times I have to reiterate this, BUT I AGREE.

I'm just saying, deep down I don't like drugs, I don't like drug use but I acknowledge that prohibition is useless and that people have the right to do whatever the hell they want.

The burden of proof in explaining why (any) drugs should be criminalised is on YOU.
...But I'm not for criminalization you twit :confused:
 

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