Why religion is bullshit IMO (2 Viewers)

[transcendent]

hey you're that religious nut. don't worry. we'll never cross paths. i'm certain i'll be lounging in hell burning and being tormented for eternity.

 

[Dumsum]

Wait a second? So you're essentially saying that everyone has equal chance of getting into heaven?

Of course; all humans are created equal, and we're all equal in the sense of being imperfect, because it's a single value, thus we all have equal "chance" of getting into heaven, because no one is above anyone else. Then again, there is no "chance" as such. It's pretty much all in your hands, you either choose Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, or you don't.

The passage about God picking and choosing who comes to him or not, that boils down to the debate of God's sovereignity (sp) versus our free will, it has been debated for centuries and not been settled. It's another issue entirely.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Of course; all humans are created equal. Well, there is no "chance" as such. It's pretty much all in your hands, you either choose Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, or you don't./quote]

Oh but I thought you said

God doesn't rate sin (except, perhaps, that blasphemy against the holy spirit thing). Rape and murder are just as bad as taking a 5c coin someone dropped; or in this case rejecting christianity.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

hopefully one for each religion where we don't have to come into contact with those who believe in heathen religions

It's mutual, we don't want pussies like you in Valhalla.

 

[Dumsum]

Of course; all humans are created equal. Well, there is no "chance" as such. It's pretty much all in your hands, you either choose Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, or you don't./quote]

Oh but I thought you said

Yes.

Ok, I can see I should have clarified. It's just as sinful. The difference here is you're accepting Jesus' gift of taking the punishment for you.

So... everyone is equally imperfect, but you choose whether you take punishment for your sins, or you accept Jesus' substitutionary punishment (which has already occured), thus you choose whether you go to heaven or not.

 

[Dumsum]

How can we choose to accept Jesus when we don't have free will?

Go elsewhere with the free will argument, it's not relevant here. I'll be more than happy to participate, however

 

[Not-That-Bright]

9. The Omniscient-vs.-Free Argument

We now come to a more complicated argument, which pits property (e) against (h). One way of formulating it is presented by Dan Barker.[9] A slightly different version may be formulated as follows:

1. If God exists, then he is omniscient.
2. If God exists, then he is free.
3. An omniscient being must know exactly what actions he will and will not do in the future.
4. If one knows that he will do an action, then it is impossible for him not to do it, and if one knows that he will not do an action, then it is impossible for him to do it.
5. Thus, whatever an omniscient being does, he must do, and whatever he does not do, he cannot do (from 3 and 4).
6. To be free requires having options open, which means having the ability to act contrary to the way one actually acts.
7. So, if one is free, then he does not have to do what he actually does, and he is able to do things that he does not actually do (from 6).
8. Hence, it is impossible for an omniscient being to be free (from 5 and 7).
9. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 8).

Some have denied that omniscience entails knowing all about the future. They say that omniscience only entails knowing what there is to know. But the future actions of free persons are open, and not there to be known about. Thus, not even an omniscient being could know about them. This may provide a basis for rejecting premise 3 of the argument.

This sort of objection to 3 can be attacked in many different ways. One way would be to affirm that an omniscient being would indeed need to know all about the future. All propositions about the future are either true or false, and an omniscient being, by definition, must know the truth of any proposition that is in fact true. Furthermore, theists, often following the Bible on this point, commonly attribute unrestricted knowledge of the future to God.[10] Indeed, if God does not know the future actions of any free beings, then there is very little, if any, pertaining to the future about which he can be certain. For no matter what the situation may be, there is always a chance that it will be affected by such actions.

Another way to attack the given objection is to maintain that, even if God does not know about the future actions of other free agents, he must know about his own future actions. One reason for this is that God's actions are all based on perfect justice and immutable law. There is never any caprice in them. His purposes and intentions have remained steadfast from all eternity, so anyone who totally understands God's purposes and intentions, as he himself does, would be able to infallibly predict his actions. It follows that God must know what he himself will and will not do in the future, which would establish the truth of premise 3 if it is taken to refer to God.

Premise 4 is a consequence of the definition of knowledge. If a proposition is known to be true, then it must be true and cannot be false. So, if X knows that Y will do Z, then it is impossible for Y not to do Z. And this is so even where X and Y are the same person.

Premise 6 says that a free agent can do what he doesn't do. That may sound odd at first, but when it is understood correctly, it seems correct. Suppose we identify what Y does as "act Z." Then in order for Y to be free, prior to doing Z, it must have been possible for Y to do Z and it must also have been possible for Y not to do Z. If it were not possible for Y not to do Z, then Y's doing of Z could not be regarded as a free act. Free acts are avoidable. You can't be free if you had to do the thing that you did. This seems intuitively right, though some forms of compatibilism might reject it. It is not a totally settled issue in philosophy. I leave it to the reader to ascertain whether or not premise 6 is correct. If it is, then I think the argument goes through.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/incompatible.html

Does that cover it? This deals more with the properties of god.. but I imagine the same objections from you and counter-arguments will be raised.

 

[Dumsum]

Alright. Just because God knows our choices in advance doesn't mean he determined them.

Edit: this was reply to Damage. I'll read the above post now.

 

[transcendent]

so does that mean he created each one of us before we were born knowing that we'd go straight to hell? what if one day everyone stopped believing in God and he knew that was going to happen and if those people gave birth he knew they wont believe in him either. he going to Armageddon us?

 

[Dumsum]

The article places God within the boundaries of time. The way I see it, God created everything, so therefore he created time. This means he exists outside of time. Him being omniscient is not a result of knowing the future, rather he "sees" everything of what we determine to occur over a period of time, instantly. I don't know how to explain myself better, do you see what I'm trying to say though?

Edit: ergh that link is huge, gonna take me ages to get through

 

[veterandoggy]

god created us with free will, something he didnt even give to the angels, which is what in effect can make us better than angels. god knows what we are going to do, and hence has written it down. it can get very confusing if you try to understand this concept, because imagine that you were going to go somewhere in your car, then you think that "oh, god probably has written down that i am going to go in my car to this place" so you go there with another car/walking, unaware that god knew before you were born that you would think this and he had not only written that you would go by someones car/walking, he had also written down that you would think like that.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

it can get very confusing

Yes we understand that it is totally illogical - do you have an answer or did you just wanna confirm what we already thought?

 

[veterandoggy]

Yes we understand that it is totally illogical - do you have an answer or did you just wanna confirm what we already thought?

i was trying to add to the diversity, cos christianity aint exactly "religion" if you get what i mean.

it would get confusing in the sense that you couldnt try to create in your mind what may have been written down. the concept, however, as i have showed you succinctly, and from what my knowledge permitted me, is not that hard at all to understand.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

i was trying to add to the diversity, cos christianity aint exactly "religion" if you get what i mean.

Nope it actually fits the definition of 'religion' if you get what i mean.

it would get confusing in the sense that you couldnt try to create in your mind what may have been written down. the concept, however, as i have showed you succinctly, and from what my knowledge permitted me, is not that hard at all to understand.

No it's not because we don't have free will, unless you accept that we don't have free will?

 

[SashatheMan]

god created us with free will, something he didnt even give to the angels, which is what in effect can make us better than angels. god knows what we are going to do, and hence has written it down. it can get very confusing if you try to understand this concept, because imagine that you were going to go somewhere in your car, then you think that "oh, god probably has written down that i am going to go in my car to this place" so you go there with another car/walking, unaware that god knew before you were born that you would think this and he had not only written that you would go by someones car/walking, he had also written down that you would think like that.

but then the question always raises, why did god create us, knowing that we would go to hell?

 

[veterandoggy]

but then the question always raises, why did god create us, knowing that we would go to hell?

ill admit that it is out of my knowledge. have you heard someone , presumably muslim, but not too picky, try to answer that question? if i have, i sure cant rememeber it.

that is one of the questions that we dont have the answer to i guess. just like "what do angels look like" and also "where did the super atom come from"

NTB, i think you get me when i say that religion is too broad to be discussed based on christianity only.

you dont believe we have free will. wasnt that easy for you to understand? if you want to keep that form of belief then that still shouldnt pose a problem to your mind to undeerstand.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

NTB, i think you get me when i say that religion is too broad to be discussed based on christianity only.

Whatever you want to turn religion into some huge big broad term so that we can never make any logical conclusions... give me your operational definition of what a religion is please so I can make observations about religions without you butting in.

you dont believe we have free will. wasnt that easy for you to understand? if you want to keep that form of belief then that still shouldnt pose a problem to your mind to undeerstand.

Your definition implied that we don't have free will, didn't it?

 

[veterandoggy]

Whatever you want to turn religion into some huge big broad term so that we can never make any logical conclusions... give me your operational definition of what a religion is please so I can make observations about religions without you butting in.



Your definition implied that we don't have free will, didn't it?

in that case, the thread should be changed to christianity or something more narrow, so meh.

no, it implied that we have free will, but since god is the all knowing, he already knows what we are going to do with our free will, and he has written it down.

 

[SashatheMan]

i might have used christianity in my post, but i object to all organised religions, if not for this reason for the many others

 

[Not-That-Bright]

it implied that we have free will, but since god is the all knowing, he already knows what we are going to do with our free will, and he has written it down.

1) Free will requires options/choices
2) If God exists then he knows what we're going to do in the future.
3) Therefore if we do something other than what god has written down, God does not exist.

C) Therefore if God exists, we have no free will because we can only do what he has written down.