Why are people choosing to pursue a career in medicine? (2 Viewers)

[Queenroot]

Interested because I want to leave an impact on the world (I have only one life) i.e. YOLO, so I want to make the most of it.

I want to volunteer in other countries, and provide free healthcare to those in need (not for $$$). And who knows, in the end, I might consider something like joining the UN, but as of now, I feel that this is where my interests lie, I can't imagine doing anything else.

 

[Medman]

from the experience i have had in the clinical environment, logical deductions become more important than just simple memorising even though i agree that in med school a lot of it comes down to the latter

I do agree. Even with logical deduction you need a huge wealth of knowledge before you can apply it in great detail in medicine. It sucks how you can't specialise straight away and must undergo such long broad training to eventually end up in a narrow field of expertise unless you become a GP. Don't know maybe I am too young to realise the circumstances of other careers but I feel pretty dull in a cohort of "brilliant" people after losing interest in just memorising.

Interested because I want to leave an impact on the world (I have only one life) i.e. YOLO, so I want to make the most of it.

I want to volunteer in other countries, and provide free healthcare to those in need (not for $$$). And who knows, in the end, I might consider something like joining the UN, but as of now, I feel that this is where my interests lie, I can't imagine doing anything else.

Nekminit interviewer says training medical graduates cost the Government money to provide for your training so you can give back to the country. In going overseas you are forsaking your own country. Why would you do this? From an interviewers perspective I would also ask if you have done any humanitarian work and if you haven't those words would be worth a grain of salt.

Full time doctors earn around $2,862.30 per week.
Website where I got the info from: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features20April+2013

Anyone with the intelligence to first get a place into medicine can make that in another career. That only turns out to be less than $150k a year. If you want to include overtime etc. you aren't actually earning a high per hour rate. This is the public system but specialists have their own private rooms which earn significantly more than what they get in the public system. So your estimate of ~$150k is a far cry from what actual public consultants earn overall. So your estimate is off but if you want medicine just to earn money you are in the wrong career taking a long and convoluted path to that amount. In addition, you might not enjoy your life.

 

[iStudent]

Looking at it purely from a money perspective, there's better. Like, the training for Medicine takes 10 - 15 years and in that time you wont be earning a great deal of money. Add to that the difficulty of getting into the degree, the long hours and the like I just feel that there are better alternatives. You can definitely make good money in Finance/Accounting, Law or Engineering provided that you do the right things - these careers have smaller training times and the money isnt too bad either.

Apparently "long hours" and the long training are myths (according to this workshop). Doctors work long hours because:
1. they want to
2. opportunity cost (earn more money), rather than because they have to.

Also, you get paid quite well during your training.
But I think you are right in that it's 10-15 years.

 

[Kiraken]

I do agree. Even with logical deduction you need a huge wealth of knowledge before you can apply it in great detail in medicine. It sucks how you can't specialise straight away and must undergo such long broad training to eventually end up in a narrow field of expertise unless you become a GP. Don't know maybe I am too young to realise the circumstances of other careers but I feel pretty dull in a cohort of "brilliant" people after losing interest in just memorising.



Nekminit interviewer says training medical graduates cost the Government money to provide for your training so you can give back to the country. In going overseas you are forsaking your own country. Why would you do this?



Anyone with the intelligence to first get a place into medicine can make that in another career. That only turns out to be less than $150k a year. If you want to include overtime etc. you aren't actually earning a high per hour rate. This is the public system but specialists have their own private rooms which earn significantly more than what they get in the public system. So your estimate of ~$150k is a far cry from what actual public consultants earn overall. So your estimate is off but if you want medicine just to earn money you are in the wrong career taking a long and convoluted path to that amount. In addition, you might not enjoy your life.

dw about this because honestly i think everyone feels like this at some point, it's part and parcel of not only med school but a lot of degrees (i know a lot of my med friends and i have felt this way and a lot of my friends who do law have felt this way too)

i think it's also because supervisors on clinical rotations know the consequences of you not knowing your stuff well and thus are extra firm and upfront with you if you don't have a good knowledge base, but it's best to realise this is only to improve your skills for the future and doesn't mean you are destined for incompetence

 

[Medman]

Apparently "long hours" and the long training are myths (according to this workshop). Doctors work long hours because:
1. they want to
2. opportunity cost (earn more money), rather than because they have to.

Also, you get paid quite well during your training.
But I think you are right in that it's 10-15 years.

1. I disagree. Do doctors really want to work on weekends? evening shifts that end at 10pm? on public holidays? Yeh no I've asked many doctors and they don't want to. My friend worked 70+hrs per week for a surgical team because otherwise he would not finish the jobs required for the patients. He didn't want to stay past 5pm but he had no choice.
2. Doctors are rostered to work on certain days. They can choose to swap shifts or take other doctor's shifts but they cannot say no to their rostered time.

Who gave this workshop?

 

[RivalryofTroll]

There are way better options out there than Medicine if this is what you want.

I have no idea why I was interested in Medicine - I watched RPA when I was 13 and thought "Wow, this job is perfect for me". I wont deny that money was a factor, but it was more of a checklist item as opposed to a main factor.

Better options than Medicine when it comes to the COMBINATION of money, prestige and JOB PROSPECTS (basically guaranteed)?

Hard to think of one myself.

Dentistry? Yeah money and job prospects are there. Prestige? Not so much.

(tbh, if it was for the $$$ and job stability --> you'd feel dentistry is the easier option)

Law? Yeah money and prestige are there. Guaranteed job prospects? Not so much.

Actuarial Studies? Money. Tick. Prestige? Well... maybe... Job prospects? Definitely not on the level of medicine.

IB? Money. Tick. Workload? Too insane.

From the objective point of view, Medicine is not only a financially rewarding option but also a 'safer' option.

But of course, it's a career which requires heaps of DEDICATION.

Looking at it purely from a money perspective, there's better. Like, the training for Medicine takes 10 - 15 years and in that time you wont be earning a great deal of money. Add to that the difficulty of getting into the degree, the long hours and the like I just feel that there are better alternatives. You can definitely make good money in Finance/Accounting, Law or Engineering provided that you do the right things - these careers have smaller training times and the money isnt too bad either.

I'd say when it comes to alternatives, dentistry isn't mentioned enough.

From the neutral perspective... money-wise and prospects-wise... it pretty much rivals Medicine... plus, you could argue it is 'easier' to get into and there's less training involved.

So many stereotypes.

The most common reasons would be to help people, a deep fascination for the human body

And if it was just the $$$, surely theyd be doing commerce where they could make more without the gruelling training of medicine

The former is a bit 'cliche' imho but the latter would be a realistic common reason.

 

[Kiraken]

Apparently "long hours" and the long training are myths (according to this workshop). Doctors work long hours because:
1. they want to
2. opportunity cost (earn more money), rather than because they have to.

Also, you get paid quite well during your training.
But I think you are right in that it's 10-15 years.

what workshop is this?

 

[iStudent]

1. I disagree. Do doctors really want to work on weekends? evening shifts that end at 10pm? on public holidays? Yeh no I've asked many doctors and they don't want to. My friend worked 70+hrs per week for a surgical team because otherwise he would not finish the jobs required for the patients. He didn't want to stay past 5pm but he had no choice.
2. Doctors are rostered to work on certain days. They can choose to swap shifts or take other doctor's shifts but they cannot say no to their rostered time.

Who gave this workshop?

Sorry, I meant doctors work long hours for EITHER of those reasons. (obviously most would choose the 2nd)

It was actually the medentry workshop presented, I think, by Doctor Edward. That's not to say I think he's right. (just sharing what I got from him, if my memory serves me correctly)

And to answer the original question,
I want to pursue a career in medicine because I'm not interested in the other career paths.
Originally it was comm/med/law/actuarial but the whole concept of working your way up the corporate ladder isn't appealing to me. Further I'm more of a science than humanities person.
Although in the possibility I don't make it into med I would probably do comm.

 

[Queenroot]

Nekminit interviewer says training medical graduates cost the Government money to provide for your training so you can give back to the country. In going overseas you are forsaking your own country. Why would you do this? From an interviewers perspective I would also ask if you have done any humanitarian work and if you haven't those words would be worth a grain of salt.

Then I would provide to the indigenous kids first.

 

[flashyGoldFish]

Better options than Medicine when it comes to the COMBINATION of money, prestige and JOB PROSPECTS (basically guaranteed)?

Hard to think of one myself.

Dentistry? Yeah money and job prospects are there. Prestige? Not so much.

(tbh, if it was for the $$$ and job stability --> you'd feel dentistry is the easier option)

Law? Yeah money and prestige are there. Guaranteed job prospects? Not so much.

Actuarial Studies? Money. Tick. Prestige? Well... maybe... Job prospects? Definitely not on the level of medicine.

IB? Money. Tick. Workload? Too insane.

From the objective point of view, Medicine is not only a financially rewarding option but also a 'safer' option.

But of course, it's a career which requires heaps of DEDICATION.



I'd say when it comes to alternatives, dentistry isn't mentioned enough.

From the neutral perspective... money-wise and prospects-wise... it pretty much rivals Medicine... plus, you could argue it is 'easier' to get into and there's less training involved.



The former is a bit 'cliche' imho but the latter would be a realistic common reason.

When you compare it to law, acturial etc I think the difference is the interest in the human body.

If you have a strong interest in the human body it leaves jobs such as medicine, dentistry, physio, chiropractor, radiography or research.

Dentistry while has the benefit of having less training its limited in only focusing on the mouth and in the case of maxilofacial surgery, only the face.

Physiotherapy is also only limited to muscle and joint injuries and often lacks the bit of science based medications

Chiropractor may not be scientific enough enough.

Radiography is also limited in its scope.

So that leaves you with research or medicine. Now medicine has more human interaction, better pay and job prospects than research. Medicine isnt as dependant as research is on grants.

Its a short summation with a lot of corners cut but that could easily be the framework of someone wanting to do medicine

 

[enoilgam]

Better options than Medicine when it comes to the COMBINATION of money, prestige and JOB PROSPECTS (basically guaranteed)?

I dont think the job prospects are as good as people make out - like, it's a lot better than most other jobs, but if you want the big money+prestige specialties, the competition is fierce from what I have heard.

 

[Medman]

Comparatively job prospects are better in medicine compared to law but it is getting to the point where quite a few doctors are finding it difficult to find a job in an urban centre without further research/study. If you think medicine is not like climbing the corporate ladder you will be sorely mistaken. Medicine is exactly the same as climbing the corporate ladder with more of a humane approach. Medicine is also not a job where it finishes after your work ends. You will sometimes be on call, you will need to study after work, you will need to do research etc. So all in all the amount of time you invest into medicine can almost rival that of IB if you take into account all the other tasks you need to do to advance your career. I know one person from my course who recently got accepted for publication into Lancet ranked 2nd on impact factor for journals, surely that would not have been an easy achievement.

Unless you're totally dedicated to medicine over your family, friends and other interests you will not find the long work hours enjoyable. There aren't a lot of people like this to be honest even in medicine.

 

[emilios]

http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/GCAGradStats2013.pdf

Hey Medman, it says in the link above that med graduates had employment rates of about 96%. I'm not a med student, and I'm sure many of those had to go rural i.e. relocate, but that still sounds miles better than most other careers.

Anyway, I think you're going through a bit of a 'grass is greener' phase. Believe me, people like myself would kill to get into medicine and I admit I'm extremely jealous of the people that get in and make it look like it was no big deal. As previous users have mentioned, the desire to go into medicine can't really be pinpointed, but it's a really nice combination of things. At the most basic level, you've got the money and prestige. I don't really see the desire to make money as something bad; after all even making around 150K doesn't mean you're filthy rich nor will it get you a house overlooking the beach in Bondi. 150k will help my refugee parents pay off their mortgage that they're definitely going to have until the day they die. It'll provide a good quality of life to my future kids and ensure I essentially never have to worry about financial struggles ever again.

Medman you brought up the point that there's other ways to go about making such money, but I think you're comparing a majority to a minority. The career pathway for doctors is clear and defined and thus extremely secure and appealing. Sure you go to uni for 5-6 years and go through lots of training (hell the pay for interns and registrars isn't even bad) but if you've completed your degree, you can feel pretty comfortable knowing that you're going to be making 150+K sometime in you life, hell maybe even 200-300K if you specialize in the right thing.

What's the alternative? Do a commerce degree and gun for investment banking? That's even more competitive to get into than medicine. And if you do get in, be prepared to step on a lot of toes, kiss a lot of ass and generally be consumed by your work. Plus you have the drudgery of a soulless office job (sorry not trying to stereotype, but bankers typically aren't happy people) as compared to the satisfying hard work you do in a hospital as a doctor.Those 'alternative' means of breaking 100k that you mentioned only apply to the best of the best in a certain field (e.g. my cousin was the dux of his elec. engineering course when he graduated and is now earning 6figs) and not the majority.

I'll give you an example. I'm still in yr 12, but when I graduate I'm probably going to go into Actuarial Studies. The course is just below medicine in terms of how long you have to be studying to actually become a qualified actuary (there's a long series of exams you have to sit with an external institute). For those that even make it through the course, the job opportunities are far and few between (at least for grads). After all that hard work and exam taking, what's at the end of the tunnel? A round 100K and a future of spread-sheeting in Excel in a cubicle for the remainder of your life. Hell, I don't even like business that much, but what career can I apply my love for science and problem solving to while still earning a good wage and having good employment prospects? Oh right... medicine. If you're aiming for 6figs my friend, you're gonna be working your arse off regardless, the 60-70 hour weeks you have to put in aren't the exception, and at least you know it's going to ease up in the future as you gain more experience.

I've already turned this into a wall of text, but believe me there's other reasons. In what job (besides maybe a paramedic and firefighter) do you literally get to save lives? How better can you leave your impact on society than by alleviating people's pains and seeing them through difficult times? Yes it's hard work, but nobody worth much got through life by cruising. There's a reason why physicians and surgeons continually make the top of 'best career' articles and lists, and I think you'll come to appreciate your job a lot more in the future. Besides, what are you going to do now? Change careers? Might as well learn to appreciate it so chumps like me that'll never get in can at least have the comfort of knowing they picked the right people.

 

[iStudent]

http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/GCAGradStats2013.pdf

What's the alternative? Do a commerce degree and gun for investment banking? That's even more competitive to get into than medicine. And if you do get in, be prepared to step on a lot of toes, kiss a lot of ass and generally be consumed by your work. Plus you have the drudgery of a soulless office job (sorry not trying to stereotype, but bankers typically aren't happy people) as compared to the satisfying hard work you do in a hospital as a doctor.Those 'alternative' means of breaking 100k that you mentioned only apply to the best of the best in a certain field (e.g. my cousin was the dux of his elec. engineering course when he graduated and is now earning 6figs) and not the majority.

Yea that's the turn off for me when it comes to 'climbing the corporate ladder'. Well said

 

[kalstar]

rollin in da hunneds

 

[Kiraken]

http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/GCAGradStats2013.pdf

Hey Medman, it says in the link above that med graduates had employment rates of about 96%. I'm not a med student, and I'm sure many of those had to go rural i.e. relocate, but that still sounds miles better than most other careers.

Anyway, I think you're going through a bit of a 'grass is greener' phase. Believe me, people like myself would kill to get into medicine and I admit I'm extremely jealous of the people that get in and make it look like it was no big deal. As previous users have mentioned, the desire to go into medicine can't really be pinpointed, but it's a really nice combination of things. At the most basic level, you've got the money and prestige. I don't really see the desire to make money as something bad; after all even making around 150K doesn't mean you're filthy rich nor will it get you a house overlooking the beach in Bondi. 150k will help my refugee parents pay off their mortgage that they're definitely going to have until the day they die. It'll provide a good quality of life to my future kids and ensure I essentially never have to worry about financial struggles ever again.

Medman you brought up the point that there's other ways to go about making such money, but I think you're comparing a majority to a minority. The career pathway for doctors is clear and defined and thus extremely secure and appealing. Sure you go to uni for 5-6 years and go through lots of training (hell the pay for interns and registrars isn't even bad) but if you've completed your degree, you can feel pretty comfortable knowing that you're going to be making 150+K sometime in you life, hell maybe even 200-300K if you specialize in the right thing.

What's the alternative? Do a commerce degree and gun for investment banking? That's even more competitive to get into than medicine. And if you do get in, be prepared to step on a lot of toes, kiss a lot of ass and generally be consumed by your work. Plus you have the drudgery of a soulless office job (sorry not trying to stereotype, but bankers typically aren't happy people) as compared to the satisfying hard work you do in a hospital as a doctor.Those 'alternative' means of breaking 100k that you mentioned only apply to the best of the best in a certain field (e.g. my cousin was the dux of his elec. engineering course when he graduated and is now earning 6figs) and not the majority.

I'll give you an example. I'm still in yr 12, but when I graduate I'm probably going to go into Actuarial Studies. The course is just below medicine in terms of how long you have to be studying to actually become a qualified actuary (there's a long series of exams you have to sit with an external institute). For those that even make it through the course, the job opportunities are far and few between (at least for grads). After all that hard work and exam taking, what's at the end of the tunnel? A round 100K and a future of spread-sheeting in Excel in a cubicle for the remainder of your life. Hell, I don't even like business that much, but what career can I apply my love for science and problem solving to while still earning a good wage and having good employment prospects? Oh right... medicine. If you're aiming for 6figs my friend, you're gonna be working your arse off regardless, the 60-70 hour weeks you have to put in aren't the exception, and at least you know it's going to ease up in the future as you gain more experience.

I've already turned this into a wall of text, but believe me there's other reasons. In what job (besides maybe a paramedic and firefighter) do you literally get to save lives? How better can you leave your impact on society than by alleviating people's pains and seeing them through difficult times? Yes it's hard work, but nobody worth much got through life by cruising. There's a reason why physicians and surgeons continually make the top of 'best career' articles and lists, and I think you'll come to appreciate your job a lot more in the future. Besides, what are you going to do now? Change careers? Might as well learn to appreciate it so chumps like me that'll never get in can at least have the comfort of knowing they picked the right people.

i do in general agree with your post but there are just some things that i disagree with

1. In terms of employment, i think that in terms of career for medicine it's more an issue for specialising, which is ridiculously competitive now. That 96% employment rate is correct for being a doctor, but doesn't reflect how many actually get into the field of their choice when it comes to specialising.
2. Medicine isn't always satisfying, surgical careers get you relatively instant results but again, some specialties have fairly low success rates. Not to mention that physicians don't always get satisfying results for their patients and often it's a case of administering meds to alleviate symptoms or even in some cases just to palliate rather than saving a life. Don't get me wrong, there are some truly wonderful and satisfying moments but these are not as common as you might think.

 

[Medman]

http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/GCAGradStats2013.pdf
Medman you brought up the point that there's other ways to go about making such money, but I think you're comparing a majority to a minority. The career pathway for doctors is clear and defined and thus extremely secure and appealing. Sure you go to uni for 5-6 years and go through lots of training (hell the pay for interns and registrars isn't even bad) but if you've completed your degree, you can feel pretty comfortable knowing that you're going to be making 150+K sometime in you life, hell maybe even 200-300K if you specialize in the right thing.

What's the alternative? Do a commerce degree and gun for investment banking? That's even more competitive to get into than medicine. And if you do get in, be prepared to step on a lot of toes, kiss a lot of ass and generally be consumed by your work. Plus you have the drudgery of a soulless office job (sorry not trying to stereotype, but bankers typically aren't happy people) as compared to the satisfying hard work you do in a hospital as a doctor.Those 'alternative' means of breaking 100k that you mentioned only apply to the best of the best in a certain field (e.g. my cousin was the dux of his elec. engineering course when he graduated and is now earning 6figs) and not the majority.

I'll give you an example. I'm still in yr 12, but when I graduate I'm probably going to go into Actuarial Studies. The course is just below medicine in terms of how long you have to be studying to actually become a qualified actuary (there's a long series of exams you have to sit with an external institute). For those that even make it through the course, the job opportunities are far and few between (at least for grads). After all that hard work and exam taking, what's at the end of the tunnel? A round 100K and a future of spread-sheeting in Excel in a cubicle for the remainder of your life. Hell, I don't even like business that much, but what career can I apply my love for science and problem solving to while still earning a good wage and having good employment prospects? Oh right... medicine. If you're aiming for 6figs my friend, you're gonna be working your arse off regardless, the 60-70 hour weeks you have to put in aren't the exception, and at least you know it's going to ease up in the future as you gain more experience.

I've already turned this into a wall of text, but believe me there's other reasons. In what job (besides maybe a paramedic and firefighter) do you literally get to save lives? How better can you leave your impact on society than by alleviating people's pains and seeing them through difficult times? Yes it's hard work, but nobody worth much got through life by cruising. There's a reason why physicians and surgeons continually make the top of 'best career' articles and lists, and I think you'll come to appreciate your job a lot more in the future. Besides, what are you going to do now? Change careers? Might as well learn to appreciate it so chumps like me that'll never get in can at least have the comfort of knowing they picked the right people.

I realised your link is actually for higher education graduates. Australia has a system in place which offers graduate positions for all junior doctors (100% if you're local) for 2 years. After this point in time you're on your own. So of course the rate of employment would be 96%. I would be more interested to see how difficult it is to obtain a job after graduating as a registrar. I have heard of senior consultants talking about their juniors being unable to find jobs after finishing all their training.

Fair points. Except you talk about medicine without understanding the underlying system or having had experience in the system. Yes you may be making 150k eventually but from my view it's more important to do something you're passionate about and is in alignment with your interests otherwise it will be a "soulless job" regardless of what you do. I feel as if you're speaking about commerce negatively as a result of your disinterest rather than a genuine understanding of the career and how the corporate ladder operates. I know of people in the corporate field earning a lot more and having great job satisfaction, it just depends on your interests. Mine have just changed after going through the system. Doctor's lead in the charts because it's a public hospital job and information is readily available. Corporate salaries are not really as open so in fact people can be earning a lot more including bonuses but I don't see this as a major inhibition in the reason to pursuing medicine.

You also suggest commerce is all about kissing ass. Well let me tell you medicine is as well. Up to 50% of your application into specialty programs can be based on "references". How do you get good references? Yes you got it, you need to kiss ass. Like kiraken said also your chances of getting into the specialty of your first choice is so low at this point in time. You will need to be required to other things in your spare time to boost your CV which still does not guarantee you entry. Also you think medicine will not consume your life? Medicine is not a career, it's a lifestyle. I do agree job satisfaction is good for medicine but the problem remains for me is patients who are deeply ignorant to address conditions underpinning their disease. Like kiraken mentioned too there are sometimes very little you can do as a doctor to see an improvement in the patient and you will realise a portion of patients continually get readmitted for their chronic disease multiple times during your term. Unfortunately, you almost have no time as a doctor to actually help the patient due to the burden placed on the public health system. You do your best but I still seen many failures in medical treatment due to ineffective of the system. I for one would not like to end up in a hospital given the amount of mistakes I have witnessed.

Yes I am not keen on pursuing purely medicine as a career as I feel I am limited by various factors and also my lack of interest in research.

 

[PatHummels]

Yes I am not keen on pursuing purely medicine as a career as I feel I am limited by various factors and also my lack of interest in research.

You should quit medicine as soon as possible, it is clear from all your posts that it is not right for you

 

[Futuremedstudent]

I know this might sound stupid but if it was so hard to find a job, then how come I know dumb people who found a job easily and now they are 1st or 2nd year registrars???? This whole thing is exaggerated, it's not that hard to find a job. And if it's hard then how come both parents are consultants. I'm sorry but sometimes this whole idea of finding a job is difficult is super exaggerated.

 

[Medman]

You should quit medicine as soon as possible, it is clear from all your posts that it is not right for you

It's clear that you know nothing about me. Patients love me and I have great rapport with all my patients. The only downside to medicine for me is the research and need to memorise so much content.

I know this might sound stupid but if it was so hard to find a job, then how come I know dumb people who found a job easily and now they are 1st or 2nd year registrars???? This whole thing is exaggerated, it's not that hard to find a job. And if it's hard then how come both parents are consultants. I'm sorry but sometimes this whole idea of finding a job is difficult is super exaggerated.

Once you already have a job it's easy. The Government increased consultancy places 20 years ago so people back then found it easier to find a job. If you have done a PHD or Masters in the last 10 years it would also not have been difficult to find a job. If you're talking about BPT registrars jobs are more widely available but I still have seen people go unaccredited, if you're talking advanced trainees there's a steep decline. If you're talking about surgical registrars there are still people missing out and doing unaccredited years. I think because medicine has always been easy to find a job the relative difficulty nowadays is much worse but comparatively to other careers may not be that bad.