What's it like being a lawyer? (1 Viewer)

[applegate]

Does uni edu prepare well for work as a lawyer? what are the hours like? average salary? cheers

 

[Omnidragon]

Hours 9-8, 5 days a week? Average salary maybe around $45000? That's for local firms. (based on friends doing articles)

Renowned global firms with offices here... hours 9-12am? Average salary low $50k-ish? (based on friends doing articles)

Renowned global firms (like Linklaters) in an overseas office... hours 9-12am? Salary not sure. (only know friends who did seasonals, not articles)

 

[El Misterio]

Hours 9-8, 5 days a week? Average salary maybe around $45000? That's for local firms. (based on friends doing articles)

Renowned global firms with offices here... hours 9-12am? Average salary low $50k-ish? (based on friends doing articles)

Renowned global firms (like Linklaters) in an overseas office... hours 9-12am? Salary not sure. (only know friends who did seasonals, not articles)

Almost no serious Australian lawyer works in the Australian office of a US or UK firms; the only exception to that is Bakers (which is for those who are serious, but were pushed out of Mallesons for not being up to scratch).

As for the original questions:

• Does uni prepare you well for work as a lawyer? Contrary to what appears to be popular opinion among lawyers, I'm going to say: yes. It teaches you the technical skills that are the basis for what you do every day, i.e. advise clients on legal matters. Of course, a good lawyer needs other skills too, and uni won't teach you everything you need to know about the law, but then who would expect otherwise?
• What are the hours like? The answer varies pretty widely. In the private sector it varies between 'levels' of firms, between firms themselves, and between different departments within firms. A corporate lawyer at a top-tier or a top-level boutique firm in Sydney may end up working an average of 8-12 and weekends for weeks or even months while working on a big transaction... but in a quiet period it might be substantially less. As much as I'd like to give you an average I really couldn't - there are too many variables.
• Average salary? Again, this varies pretty widely. If you're at a top-tier or a top-level boutique firm in Sydney, as a grad starting in the next 24 months you could be earning as much as $70k in your first year. But even within that class of firms you're looking at a $20k variation from lowest to highest paying. At a mid-tier you can expect somewhat less. In terms of the public sector, smaller practices and entry-level at the bar, I couldn't say.

 

[wheredanton]

From what I know practice is very different to the university classroom.

 

[Omnidragon]

Almost no serious Australian lawyer works in the Australian office of a US or UK firms; the only exception to that is Bakers (which is for those who are serious, but were pushed out of Mallesons for not being up to scratch).

Ok... didn't know that. Lucky I was referring to Bakers only in my mind... b/c that's where the fd worked.

Wouldn't it be pretty good working in, say, Linklaters overseas tho?

 

[El Misterio]

Ok... didn't know that. Lucky I was referring to Bakers only in my mind... b/c that's where the fd worked.

Wouldn't it be pretty good working in, say, Linklaters overseas tho?

Sure, it'd be great to work for Linklaters in London or Skaddens in New York, but you wouldn't want to work for them here. I doubt that any of them hire graduates here anyway. In any case, working OS is something that law students tend to become irrationally exuberant about. Sure, the money tends to be better (often a very great deal better, but then a great deal of the extra money may be eaten up by the cost of living in London or New York) and the deals are potentially a lot bigger, but an office in London is much like an office in Sydney, except the view probably won't be as good.

Wheredanton: of course it's different, but surely that's only to be expected. I doubt that, for example, studying engineering is much like working as an engineer.

 

[wheredanton]

Wheredanton: of course it's different, but surely that's only to be expected. I doubt that, for example, studying engineering is much like working as an engineer.

Just stating the super obvious. Any tips for us summer clerk obsessed 4th year unsw law students? How did you go with your summer clerkship ? did you get one etc?

 

[MaryJane]

The Solicitors' at the firm where I work, work hours of 8am - 6/7pm (on a good day). On Friday, we always knock off at 5 because its drinkies time!

And, from what I've been told, they dont really feel like uni prepared them very well, especially attending court (ie. Court etiquette), and how to deal with clients (ie. how personal you have to get with them), and time management.

 

[turtleface]

Does uni edu prepare well for work as a lawyer?

I think it will at least to some degree, otherwise there isn't much point requiring us to have law degrees to work as lawyers

 

[law_stud]

In any case, working OS is something that law students tend to become irrationally exuberant about. Sure, the money tends to be better (often a very great deal better, but then a great deal of the extra money may be eaten up by the cost of living in London or New York) and the deals are potentially a lot bigger,
.

You didn't emphasise
a] Money... and tax
b] Living overseas [that's the whole point]

 

[BillytheFIsh]

Ok - I haven't posted for quite some time. In fact, the last time I posted I would have been in final semester law. I have now finished my degree and a PLT course and will (hopefully) get admitted on 11 September (next admission date up here in Brisbane). While I am not yet a solicitor, the work I do on a day to day basis will not change in any substantial way (most likely in almost any way at all). Also, I probably should say that my story is probably not what could be considered “typical”. Most people on here seem interested in working for the big firms - which was never my intention/desire. Also, the path I took to get a job was different – I didn’t do any summer clerkships/anything like that. I wasn’t really interested.

Having said that, maybe some of you may be interested on what I do on a daily basis.

Basically, I work in a small, boutique intellectual property commercial law firm in Brisbane. We do do an amount of litigation work, however my mix is about 70/30 weighted in commercial. Given that I do want to go to the bar, the intention is to bring that to about 50/50 and my bosses are supportive of that.

The questions:

Does uni edu prepare well for work as a lawyer?

Well, yes and no. Yes, it prepares you in the best way an academic education can. It gives you the broad knowledge and understanding that you need to start learning to work as a lawyer. But no, working as a lawyer is completely different to uni work and much (90%) of stuff you do as a lawyer is something you will have never done at uni. Uni is an exercise of learning things on a much broader scale. Practicing (particularly in commercial law) is all about attending to the details and the hundreds of steps that occur within what you would learn about in 5 minutes of uni. So much of practicing the law has nothing to do with what the legal position is, but much more what the practical and commercial consequences are. It may surprise many of you (it sure did surprise me) that a large, large percentage of lawyers (senior and junior, articled clerks and partners) would step into a courtroom less than once or twice a year. Uni doesn’t prepare you for that.

What are the hours like?

I work 7:30/8:00am until about 6:30pm on an average day. Many days are longer, though I’m not often here after 7:30pm. Not many days are shorter. I have it pretty good though - I'm only expected to put out about 5.5 chargable a day and if i work for 11 hours i generally have no problem getting that or even more.

Average salary?

I’m on $50k+ super + bonuses, though Sydney wages are higher I understand.

Typical type of work: (obviously very variable, but you get the idea)

1. Client meetings
2. Drafting initial letters to clients re proposed costs (a lot of stuff we do is IP-based business start-ups. Clients come to us with a product/idea, we put them into an appropriate corporate structure, do up their customer agreements/contractor agreements/whatever. This is often significant amounts so you cost it all out.)
3. Setting up companies/trusts for corporate structures
4. Drafting agreements (everything from manufacturing agreements to website terms and conditions, IP assignments, IP licenses etc)
5. legal research re advices to clients
6. drafting advices to clients on copyright, prospects of success in litigation
7. dealing with dispute settlements – offers/counter offers, drafting settlement deeds where appropriate, mainly where you have a debt dispute or business partners extricating themselves from bad situations
8. drafting court documents – affidavits, witness statements etc
9. reading leases, drafting advices re leases, drafting letters to other side requesting changes etc
10. going to court to do basic applications (e.g. reinstatement of a company etc)
11. instructing counsel on minor hearings
12. dictating all the ASIC/company secretarial forms etc re corporate restructures.

This is all the bread and butter stuff that happens on a daily basis. When you put it down on paper it sounds more boring than it actually is, but then again, it’s still not particularly glamorous.

Welcome to being a commercial lawyer! It’s not all high-flying, but it’s not such a bad way to make a living and it is good to see clients with really good ideas succeed. While I do want to go to the bar, I think I will miss that commercial relationship side of things that you have with clients which isn’t quite the same when you’re a barrister (I worked full time in barristers’ chambers for 9 months last year).

 

[hfis]

Thanks for that Billy. I didn't post this thread (obviously), but I found that to be a very valuable insight

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Nice post Bill