What is this bs about graduate salaries? (1 Viewer)

[turtleface]

I haven't taken much interest in this before, because I generally believe that graduate salaries mean nothing, and that it is what you earn in 5 and 10 years or so time that counts. Even so, I believe if we do compare average graduate salaries, they should be compared reasonably.

A lot of people on BoS, uni and also the media refers to the stats contained within the Graduate Careers Australia surveys a lot. Hence I always hear stuff like, "oh dentistry is the highest paid graduate job", and "pharmacy is the worst paid", as this is the survey that asserts this stuff.

(You can find the surveys here: http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/content/view/full/24)

But I think its not very good, some features of the surveys are totally bullcrap too.

What is wrong with them?

1. Firstly the categories are stupid. They are so aggregated it makes the information useless. Everyone knows that Investment Banking Analysts, and now Mining Engineers, are the highest paid graduates out of university, with some being paid in excess of $200,000. You'd struggle to find an investment banking analyst getting less than 80K too. That average will be much higher than Dentistry.

2. Probably the worst aspect of these surveys exists in relation to Pharmacy. Notice that in every survey next to Pharmacy there is always a "Pre-registration" label, e.g.:

Pharmacy (pre-registration)

The notes will explain that, and i quote:

Care should be taken with salary interpretations for pharmacy graduates as
these are affected by registration requirements and are not indicative of
earnings over time.

OH GEE!! WHAT A REVELATION! OF COURSE GRADUATE SALARIES ARE NOT INDICATIVE OF EARNINGS OVER TIME! The problem of this sentence, besides stating the blinding obvious, is that the survey makes the statement ONLY in relation to Pharmacy.

I have no idea what the people who were doing this survey were on when they made this, but I suspect there may be an agenda behind this. Maybe the big Pharmacy companies are exerting some pressure to excuse the (dreadfully) low salaries of Pharmacy graduates. The "Pre-registration low salary" is no excuse for low salaries. As many of us know, Pharmacy is not the only field to require graduates to be registered.

Doctors need to be registered, yet you don't see the salary survey making excuses for their (higher) salaries. So too do Lawyers, Accountants, Financial Planners, Stockbrokers, Architects, Psychologists, pretty much everyone.

Yet these professions don't get this excuse:

Care should be taken with salary interpretations for pharmacy graduates as
these are affected by registration requirements and are not indicative of
earnings over time.

Nowhere do the surveys excuse the salaries for Doctors, Lawyers and Accountants etc. even though they too have to be registered too.

3. This last point is not so much a mistake, but a limitation of the survey.
The average salary figures are affected by other factors. I quote:

The salary figures on this site include payments such as overtime and bonuses, so they often do not reflect base wage rates. For example, the salary for medical graduates is substantially increased by overtime payments. Therefore, an analysis of how salaries compare across fields of study should take hours worked and hourly salary rates into account.

So it turns out we can't say that Med graduates get 55K or so and Pharmacists get only 30K or so, because med figures include overtime pay.

Don't get me wrong I don't mean to bag Pharmacists, unfortunately they just happen to be the things that get screwed up.

Anyway, thats my rant, you probably think I have nothing better to do with my time (and you'd be right).

I think I'll get sick if I hear another reference to these stupid surveys.

 

[Adam]

I'm sure somebody will care about it.....

I personally don't care, money doesn't make me happy and I'm going to get one of the highest salaries coming out of uni out of all degree's.

 

[M@C D@DDY]

Stastics of any sort any only ever a guide and cannot be taken to be indicative of the whole picture. I guess those stats are used to give those HSC-ers who are particularly materialistc, something to think about, when they are choosing there courses. As far as I am concerned, any individual wo excels in their line of work earns substantially higher than those of median salary in most other industries.

Though I must say Turtleface, you are very fired up on this issue.

 

[turtleface]

yes i had a brain snap after reading another post referring to these surveys.

the "pre registration" comment for the pharamacy field annoys me the most because it has been like that for the past 5 years (maybe longer than that I havent checked though)

maybe the drug companies arent just paying off the doctors, and are paying off these survey people, so as to excuse the lousy first year salary for pharmacy grads

im over it now, i just had nothing better to do that night

 

[velox]

Turtleface, you have serious problems. Just worry about your accounting.

We have said this before. Not every commerce grad will earn 80k and be an IB analyst. Whereas every dentistry graduate will earn the ~60k starting salary.

 

[turtleface]

its 80K-240K for IB analysts first year out

also, there is no such thing as overtime payments in the financial/accounting/commerce sectors

Turtleface, you have serious problems

yes i do

 

[ioniser]

turtleface,i think you need to make a judgement as what you want to do.I'm sure your one smart brat you could probably suceed in any industry you enter but it all comes down to as to whether you like it or not

your past 50 posts have been on nothing except accountants and lawyers

get over it pick one ,and whatever you think is the best then it is your opinon it doesn't matter what other people think

 

[SpLaTHoWA]

Whereas every dentistry graduate will earn the ~60k starting salary.

that is simply untrue:

Table: Comparison of public dental officer salaries in New South Wales and Queensland as at July 2004

GRADE NSW QLD
Dental Officer Grade 1
Year 1 $ 48,797 $ 65,602
Year 2 $ 52,508 $ 67,282
Year 3 $ 56,223 $ 68,954
Year 4 $ 59,935 $ 72,166
Year 5 $ 63,646 $ 73,932
Year 6 $ 67,361 $ 75,703
Year 7 $ 71,071 $ 77,462
Dental Officer Grade 2
Year 1 $ 73,857 $ 79,340
Year 2 $ 76,635 $ 81,219
Dental Officer Grade 3 $ 79,793 $ 83,835
$ 86,648
Dental Officer Grade 4 $ 83,135 $ 89,458
$ 91,766
Dental Officer Grade 5 $ 87,776 $ 95,823
$ 99,580

ADA (NSW) commented that salary differences between the private and public sector are even more extreme. For example, it is not unusual for a third or fourth year graduate to earn a salary of $130,000 or more. When this level of remuneration is compared to the public sector it is not difficult to understand why current graduates find employment in the public sector so unappealing. With a starting salary of less than $50,000 it takes seven years for a public sector
dentist to earn over $70,000.


Remuneration for dentists with 2 years post graduation experience:

NSW public sector QLD public sector Private health Private practice
insurance clinic
$56,223 $68,954 $90,000 Up to $130,000


taken from the "Final report of the Social Issues Committee in relation to the Inquiry into Dental services in NSW"

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/4fa2d0149b588095ca25714200077d20/$FILE/FINAL-%20COMPILED%2030%20MARCH.pdf

 

[dora_18]

I personally don't care, money doesn't make me happy and I'm going to get one of the highest salaries coming out of uni out of all degree's.

I dont understand when people say"money doesn't make me happy", i think there is a distinct difference between not having money and having it: being able to walk into a place and buy things you really want or travel where you want instead of having to save every last dollar you have in order to barley scrape through rent and bills.

I mean i realise there are medial points in there as well, its not one situation or the other..but still

It's a shame things like that don't make you happy...as you said yourself i mean you'll have a high graduate salary-civil engineering and all.

 

[SpLaTHoWA]

gotta love the sausage fest that is civil engy.

 

[turtleface]

not as bad as software engineering

still I guess they can't all be like Arts lol

and since when did civil engineering get paid good first year out? Maybe Mining engineering u can get 100K first year out, but from my experiences, civil, like Accounting, you won't hit 6 figures until at least 4 years after graduation.

I dont understand when people say"money doesn't make me happy", i think there is a distinct difference between not having money and having it: being able to walk into a place and buy things you really want or travel where you want instead of having to save every last dollar you have in order to barley scrape through rent and bills.

I mean i realise there are medial points in there as well, its not one situation or the other..but still

i'm not into the super rich thing either. i'll be more than happy on a partner's salary. I don't need the 200 million some Investment Bankers get. Money's not that important to me in the sense that I'll try to live a normal life and only want a lot of money for the sake of having a lot of money, to feel powerful

 

[Templar]

In terms of money, both ends of the equation is not a good position to be in. If what you love to do will return a pay that you could barely live off, then it wouldn't be enjoyable. Similarly regardless of how much you earn, if you don't even have time to use it, it just becomes a pile of useless plastic (or magnetic fields, in terms of electronic).

The survey presents a statistical synopsis on graduate salaries. It is clear in what kind of information it contains, and more importantly, doesn't contain. How the data is used is up to the end user. Obviously incorrect analysis of the data would result in misleading information.

A certain job might earn a lot, but if places are so limited it's almost impossible to get in then it is largely irrelevant. Also, if a career does not provide stable employment then the extra starting salary might not compensate for that (both in financial and psychological terms).

In the end, the data is pretty clear. Use as you see fit.

 

[SpLaTHoWA]

If what you love to do will return a pay that you could barely live off, then it wouldn't be enjoyable. Similarly regardless of how much you earn, if you don't even have time to use it, it just becomes a pile of useless plastic (or magnetic fields, in terms of electronic).

Now we're getting deep into pyschological theory:

Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
– Individuals seek to satisfy the most basic or
pressing needs and then move on to higher needs
– A satisfied need does not motivate
– Ability to motivate depends on being able to
identify and satisfy currently unfulfilled needs

AKA

Maslow's self actualisation theory:
people satisfy their:
1. Biological needs
2. Safety needs
3. Belongingness and love needs
4. Esteem needs
5. Self actualisation
in that particular order. once basic hunger, shelter yadda yadda are satisfied, people move onto bigger and better things. money is a means to an end and past a certain amount will not be a motivating factor or something that people will strive for.

so on and so forth.

 

[MaryJane]

Now we're getting deep into pyschological theory:

Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs

....

AKA

Maslow's self actualisation theory:

...

so on and so forth.

Firstly, it is spelt psychological.

Secondly, if you had attended any first year introductory psych unit, you would know that Maslow's Hierarchy/Self Actualisation Theory is a load of B.S, which has been criticised beyond repute. Not even business lecturer's will give it the time of day. So please do not try and label Maslow as a "deep psychological theory".

... Just asked my boy for some greater knowledge, because straigh psych lecturer's kind of just brush off Maslow, saying: "all you need to know is that it exists, is liked because its simple and intuitive, but it has no scientific, social or organisational reliability or validity". My boy is a BBA+Psych student, who wants to practise Org Psych, so he has a bit more knowledge. His comments are below:

• Is a "content" rather than "process" theory (which tend to be more valid) of motivation, which prescribes particular properties of motivation, and in turn has certain faults such as;
• Doesn't attempt to account for individual variations,
• ...and evidence shows people do not necessarily follow the hierarchy (thus major flaw with its validity, as a theory that says people follow it step by step).
• Suggests that motivational sources are static and unchanging, and suggests that change depends on the immediate and general circumstances. For example, research shows accountants/financial people and high-level managers are more motivated by money than the hierarchy would otherwise suggest.
• Org Psychologists admit the theory has cost industry millions of dollars (because of above problems), but continues to be used as it's simple and intuitive to laypersons.

/end rant.

Sorry, nothing personal, but this happens a lot, and I cant stand it. It's like people saying "Oh, you do psych... dont read my mind"!! Not funny.

 

[SpLaTHoWA]

ouch. wtf bbq pwned!

hehe, no offence taken
1. i'm a crap typist - typo on "pyschologist"
2. unsw commerce lecturers give it time of day...*cough*
3. i haven't taken any intro psych courses - have had at most 2 lectures on which passing comments have been made regarding to maslow
4. if you must insist i've taken psych courses, ok fine i kind of have:
i) in a compulsory stream of classes im forced to take called "personal and professional development" where we learn "breathing techniques" and "interviewing skills"
ii) in the touchy feely absolutely useless graduate med lectures on psychosocial development and coping with stress/bad news/other random crap

always nice to learn that theres another useless thing some psychologist somewhere made up so they get more stuff to do =)

 

[ioniser]

since when did civil engineering get paid good first year out? Maybe Mining engineering u can get 100K first year out, but from my experiences, civil, like Accounting, you won't hit 6 figures until at least 4 years after graduation.

what he is trying to suggest is that evantually civil engineers will reach the big numbers soon and quicker.If you haven't noticed engineering currently has the biggest shortage in the world and a big one in Australia as well.To fill you in at the moment ,there are only 900 civil graduates(in australia) each year and a demand for 1800 civil engineers,numbers are rising in other streams of engineering but not as much as civil.Which will later affect the salary(actually it already has)

Its also not only the mining engineers that get paid heaps,other streams of engineering such as electrical,mechanical,manufacturing working in the mining sector earn well into the 6 figure salary within 3years

Also mechanics,train drivers,electricians ........etc working in the WA mining sector earn well into the 6 figure salary

 

[SpLaTHoWA]

they also say theres a 1000 shortage of dentists, but u dont see us getting 6 figures first year out all that often

 

[ioniser]

your funded by the govenrment the community wants you,an industry doesnt want you thats the difference

you cant build a 10 storey building without a civil engineer,you cant mine with out a mining engineer,you cant manufacture minerals to the right standard without a mechanical enigneer............But you can go through life with stuffed teeth it worked for people a 1000 years ago.

 

[dddman]

they also say theres a 1000 shortage of dentists, but u dont see us getting 6 figures first year out all that often

YOU JUST GOT OWNED!

 

[turtleface]

yes for every accounting graduate there are reports of 4-10 jobs being available depending on the state.

shortages are a load of bs. Accounting grads still stagnate at the 35-60K mark 1st year out.