Violence erupts in Sydney over anti-Islam film (9 Viewers)

[Lolsmith]

I never disagreed with that. What I'm saying is that this concept of "freedom of expression" is being exploited and used as a tool to spread hate. Sam Bacile has very clearly set out to incite hatred against Muslims and Islam. This isn't really a matter of whether this is freedom of expression or not. This man is pushing a very extremist view and providing fodder for right-wing groups. Rather than supporting hate against any particular faith, whether it is Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism or the many others that exist we should be working towards promoting peace both cross-culturally and between religions.

What I am afraid of is that people are so quick to jump on the 'Muslims are terrorists' or 'Muslims are violent' bandwagon and suddenly you have extremism on both sides.

Nothing in his video was based on actual fact. It was intended as a brutal attack on the image of peace Muslims all around the world have been striving to promote for years. Bacile was looking for this kind of reaction for whatever reason- this movie wasn't made in good humour or as a political statement- there is no "opinion"- it was just made to incite hate. All I hope is that you can see that.

I don't agree with that at all and besides, I don't give a shit if it was or wasn't.

This is still an opinion and is still protected under freedom of speech, in either the U.S or France. I don't care if you or your buddies are upset by this type of thing. It wasn't made to incite hate at all and if you believe this you are deluded, but I guess that's pretty fitting for the religious mind. Why do you think it was made to incite hate?

 

[JINOUGA]

There you go. A whole heap of fuss for nothing.

Tbh *someone* (don't know who) still wrote that placard up, which is a matter of concern, as it incites violence against people.

Also I have seen the video in question. It is in fact deeply offensive to the Muslim community, I don't think there is any sidestepping that. It is blatantly idiotic and disgusting but it is also so horribly filmed that it is a massive shit on the film industry.

It's just so bad that I don't see how anyone could have possibly taken it seriously. If you're secure in your religion, then just ignore anyone who abuses it, religion is your personal choice and if you truly believed in Allah you would place trust in him judging people who do bad things and not try to take matters into your own hands, particularly when it in no way directly harms you and especially don't respond in a violent manner that only serves to destroy the image of Muslims around the world, most of whom do not deserve this negative judgement

If you have to respond, critique the film. Talk about how terrible it is, you have that right and hell you're entitled to do it. But don't unleash in a violent and over the top manner. In fact, for these types of publicity stunts its best to just ignore it and thus deprive such people of the attention they so desperately seek

 

[RANK 1]

DO U CALL THIS A PROPHET....this person isn't even half a human being in terms of morals...u want scriptural proof THERES PLENTY:

Sahih Bukhari Narrated Qatada: Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven). Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268.

Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215, Omar reported from the Holy Prophet who said, "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife."

Al Hadis, Vol 1, p. 688, No. 236, Abul Juhaim-b-Hares reported, "I saw the Prophet when he was urinating. I saluted him, but he did not return the salute... He struck it (his penis) with a stick, rubbed his hands on the wall and then his face, and saluted me." Sharhi Sunnat.

FROM YOUR BOOK...not mine, if u take offense muhammads ur man.

i really dont see what other context you can put these in

 

[RANK 1]

Well imo, most moral values can be traced back to religious preachings. Just saying.

moral values evolve over time through natural selection in order to create stable societies. societies that have sub-par moral standings or laws rarely last long before they collapse on themselves whilst the ones with good moral standings and laws tend to be more productive and survive longer before passing their laws and moral code onto another society to use and build upon which is why you see mankind get progressively more "civilized" over time. it certainly does not come from religion

 

[minnime]

@Lolsmith
Have you watched the video? I find it extremely hard to believe that Bacile's purpose was to 'express his opinion' on Islam. Portraying a religious figure in a false, ungrounded and deeply offensive manner- to the point that not even the producers or actors knew what the movie really was about- makes his intentions to me very clear. This video, in its poor quality of production was made to offend and made to incite anger from all Muslim populations, adding more fuel to an already volatile situation. And here we are now. Muslims around the world are being painted as barbarians- and I know everyone is being told to treat the video with contempt but understand that this man's sole purpose was to exacerbate tensions between Muslims and the Western world.

@JINOUGA
I understand your point but I think it is wrong to blame people for being angry and protesting. I condone violence but I can see why these people are so angry. Its not easy for everyone to watch the video and react calmly or see it for its poor quality.
Relations between the West and the Middle East & Pakistan have worsened terribly over the past 20 years. Iraq was invaded for their oil. American support for Israel in the Israel-Palestine conflict hasn't particularly helped either. And the west's invasion of Afghanistan- whether this is for better or for worse I can't say- has caused problems as well, perhaps even making the Taliban situation worse. There isn't a lot of sentiment for the West in the first place. I think its hard for a lot of people to ignore it and its important to recognize that.
I think we should at the very least defend Islam's image. I don't think violence is the way to do that, but at the same time I don't think sitting back and allowing people to defame and soil the Prophet's (pbuh) image is going to solve anything either. I think we all should be working to clear any misconceptions about Islam. I for one can't sit back and hear people tell me that Muslims are violent, West-hating intolerant people. The situation is a lot more complex than just what one silly video suggests.


@RANK1

Those are all out of context, whether you believe me or not. I advise you to took a look at this website islamicmyths.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/islam-forbids-wife-beating/
in regards to the second "piece of evidence". I'm not going to go into the technicalities of it, but understand that Hadith and Quran are both in Arabic and hence there are certain connotations and nuances that can't always be expressed in English.

The first statement is actually about the Prophet's (pbuh) strength in being able to provide for each of his wives equally.
The third statement has been grossly quoted out of context. The Prophet (pbuh) wipes his hands and face with the dust on the wall in order to clean himself before saluting. I'm guessing in that time dust was used in the place of water to clean one's body as a form of ablution. I don't see how this in any way portrays the Prophet (pbuh) in a negative manner.

Its easy to isolate one particular sentence or passage, change a few words around and post it as "evidence". But understand that unless you are getting that information from the original source or from an actual Islamic/Hadith website it isn't accurate or is being placed out of context to evoke a negative response about Islam.

 

[soloooooo]

I don't agree with that at all and besides, I don't give a shit if it was or wasn't.

This is still an opinion and is still protected under freedom of speech, in either the U.S or France. I don't care if you or your buddies are upset by this type of thing. It wasn't made to incite hate at all and if you believe this you are deluded, but I guess that's pretty fitting for the religious mind.

This.

 

[soloooooo]

@Lolsmith
Have you watched the video?

I've watched it. While it is a crap video it is not worth rioting worldwide about it and giving a bad name to all muslims.

This video, in its poor quality of production was made to offend and made to incite anger from all Muslim populations, adding more fuel to an already volatile situation.

Anyone can make a video/cartoon/whatever depicting whatever they want. Christianity, Scientology etc all all regularly mocked both on film and in cartoons. Mocking Islam is fair game also.

And here we are now. Muslims around the world are being painted as barbarians- and I know everyone is being told to treat the video with contempt but understand that this man's sole purpose was to exacerbate tensions between Muslims and the Western world.

Blame the rioting muslims for sending the relationship between muslims and non muslims back several years to the post 9/11 era. It is no one elses fault.

 

[Peccadillo]

i really dont see what other context you can put these in

You make that statement with absolutely no knowledge of the context at all. You can at least google them before you deny any alternate context.

It is strictly haram (not permissable) to cause physical or emotional harm to your wife. In relation to the term "beating"... What I have always heard is that you can hit your wife on the forearm with a miswak (a stick used to brush ones teeth - it is about the size of your index finger).. I have never felt the need to hit my wife with this stick, nor will I ever. She would probably rofl anyway. Remember with the term "beating" this is another example where you need to study the texts in order to understand the context - It's also another key example of why Arabic to English translation is very difficult and can often get misconstrued. ALSO - I don't even know if the miswak "beating" is actually permissable - I think there are differing opinions on this also.

@ minime I agree with much of your above post however I disagree in that we should not be empathetic to those who took part in the violence on Saturday.

I went to a talk last night at Omar Mosque in Auburn with Sheikh Omar el-Banna. He made the excellent point that most of these people were acting our of vengeance not for the sake of Allah (SWT) but doing it for their nafs (for non-muslims this means your desires basically), their nafs in this case was anger. Taking such strong action upon your nafs (or desires) is disliked by Allah (SWT).

For the record Sheikh Omar was strongly opposed to what took place on Saturday but also made it quite clear that he does not condemn them to belittle the opinions of those who feel it was justified. He just made clear he does not believe it to be beneficial for the ummah. He made the point that this kind of behaviour may be acceptable under an Islamic state but it is not acceptable or warranted by any means in this day and age.

What good comes of lashing out against a non-believer who commits blasphemy when the non-believer doesn't understand??? What are the wider community (in this case Australia) going to think when they see this violence?? Are they going to think "oh maybe it is wrong to say these things about the prophet"... No.. of course not. They are going to see violent believers and it will only further deter them from Islam.

He also reminded us of the importance of MANNERS - something many of those on Saturday who partook in the rioting did not consider in their actions.

Anyway just thought I would let you know the position of one prominent Sheikh (my intepretation of his opinion) who's I respect greatly. May Allah (SWT) reward him Insha Allah.

 

[DrWho94]

LOL...see this is the typical muslim thing - you give them proof from their own scripture which they disagree with and suddenly you made up the scriptural hadith references ! Smart move...

And for the people arguing context ...WHAT EXCUSABLE CONTEXT CAN U USE TO JUSTIFY UR prophet HAVING THE STRENGTH OF THIRTY MEN IN ORDER TO HAVE SEX WITH HIS MANY MANY MANY wives?
WHAT EXCUSABLE CONTEXT CAN U USE FOR BEATING YOU WIFE?

Something tells me this prophet was LIVING THE LIFE ...he had riches, food, women (whom ever he pleased) and an army...None of these we ever see in the other prophets who went through trouble and suffering for their people. Even they cannot compare to Jesus.

 

[DrWho94]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not think we are dumb on this forum...have some respect for our intelligence - As for the wife beating...here are some quotes you would enjoy FROM THE WORD OF ALLAH THE QURAN...No one can say I made these up because these were supposedly given to muhammad by your god.

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

This is from Hadith:

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them."

 

[7eleven]

You guys should check this video out. I have to agree with the points his made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r38rP19Gub8&feature=player_embedded

 

[Debauchee]

 

[Debauchee]

You guys should check this video out. I have to agree with the points his made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r38rP19Gub8&feature=player_embedded

Stopped watching at "the response has been intellectual"

islam is the one of the most anti-intellectual forces in the world today

 

[7eleven]

Stopped watching at "the response has been intellectual"

islam is the one of the most anti-intellectual forces in the world today

Quite frankly, this only reflects your arrogance.
Those who aren't arrogant, i request you to watch the whole clip before posting any comments in regards to it.

 

[Debauchee]

 

[7eleven]

Whats your point? Run it straight

 

[Peccadillo]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not think we are dumb on this forum...have some respect for our intelligence - As for the wife beating...here are some quotes you would enjoy FROM THE WORD OF ALLAH THE QURAN...No one can say I made these up because these were supposedly given to muhammad by your god.

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

This is from Hadith:

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them."

I dont know how many times I have to repeat this with you.. CONTEXT. As an Arab do you may speak Arabic? If so... surely you know many words can have multiple meanings and can be interpreted in many different ways. That is the purpose of SAHIH HADITH - to clarify. You are either really ignorant or you are simply a preacher of hate, you pick and choose the ambiguous to suit your argument. It's pathetic really.

I have already advised you of what is meant by the term "beating" in this context, the fact you choose to ignore it is your problem.
See link for alternate translations of your extract; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa,_34

Just out of curiosity. Why DO you have Che Guevara as your avatar? Is it just because you think its cool.. If not then why?

 

[Lolsmith]

@Lolsmith
Have you watched the video? I find it extremely hard to believe that Bacile's purpose was to 'express his opinion' on Islam. Portraying a religious figure in a false, ungrounded and deeply offensive manner- to the point that not even the producers or actors knew what the movie really was about- makes his intentions to me very clear. This video, in its poor quality of production was made to offend and made to incite anger from all Muslim populations, adding more fuel to an already volatile situation. And here we are now. Muslims around the world are being painted as barbarians- and I know everyone is being told to treat the video with contempt but understand that this man's sole purpose was to exacerbate tensions between Muslims and the Western world.

You have no idea what you're talking about do you? This man's opinion is that Muhammad was a pedophile, womaniser and mass-murderer (since he led an army). This is the depiction he gave and if it coincided with a bunch of barbaric idiots getting upset and consequently attempting to use violence to silence opinion they dislike like they would in their home land, that has nothing to do with the author. Just because his opinion upsets you, does not necessarily constitute that this opinion was expressed to upset people. Even if it was, this is a good thing.

Like soloo said, the only people who have to blame for a negative portrayal of Muslims is indeed Muslims.

 

[Peccadillo]

Just to let people know, 5 minutes ago I was subject to western Freedom of Speech at it's very best. This post is very much ON TOPIC - I will complain if this get's removed because I don't see how it is fair for people to suggest my ideologies are sick, support pedophillia support murder - then the opposite side of the coin gets removed because it reflects badly on the antitheist mentality...

Admin removes disgusting Anti-Islamist propaganda meme posted by *someone* of which I cannot detail. I kind of wish Admin left that so people could see what kind of a person he is.
ADMIN removed it after I had seen it, I posted a refute to the meme - pointing out its irony, it's abhorrent nature and it's idiocy.
The meme was not funny - It looked like it has been created by an EDL member seems only intent on inciting xenophobic hatred.

I think it is unfair it was removed.. Admin told me it's because it was off-topic however I would suggest it was no more Off Topic than much else of what has been discussed in this thread. I believe it was removed simply because it was a step too far and because it add's fuel to the idea that there is much content out there which is purely to incite hatred through an anti-islamist agenda - yet some hide behind "oh he was just trying to be funny".

This exemplifies the flaw with western notions of freedom of speech/expression - its conditionality - its ambiguity. If you want to promote freedom of expression let *someone* express his sentiment! Let him express his view and let people make their own judgment on that view! Why not I ask? "Off topic?" I doubt that very much.

 

[DrWho94]

Ok first of all this is not a personal thread for us to talk about avatars (no I'm not a supporter of communism and socialism - I just read into the guy and I saw good values).

Obviously that was a move from you in order to get the spotlight off those quotes I put up. I find it hilarious that you are quoting wikipedia BUT HAVE NO FEAR LOL, il still debate you...You quoted An Nisa...THE VERY VERSES that state that men are more powerful than women, therefore they should be their guardians, is that really a smart move? Women have rights today...they can have their own homes...their own cars. I dont think they are waiting for your Bedouin prophet to give them permission anymore.
Now for the people that are actually buying this "beating your wife LIGHTLY" crap...please please please be realistic.

NO its my turn to pose a question to you that I want you to answer in front of everyone in this forum with SCRIPTURAL reference. WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR A WOMAN THAT COMMITS ADULTERY ACCORDING TO YOUR RELIGION OF PEACE; ISLAM???