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Too much focus on HSC marks? (1 Viewer)

Rafy

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Sydney Morning Herald: Too much focus on HSC marks, says uni chief
Harriet Alexander / October 9, 2006

Too much focus on HSC marks, says uni chief

STUDENTS should be considered for university on a broader range of factors than marks alone if the system is to be fair, one of Australia's most controversial vice-chancellors says.

Professor Steven Schwartz, of Macquarie University, said a more equitable way of choosing students would combine references, interviews and Higher School Certificate marks, which is how overseas universities run their admissions processes.

Otherwise disadvantaged students were being discriminated against, he said.

"You can make arguments on both sides," said Professor Schwartz, who oversaw a review of admissions at British universities in 2004, while vice-chancellor at Brunel University in London.

"You can say for marks, no other factors are taken into consideration and therefore it's fair competition. The argument on the other side is that's only true if everyone starts from the same place. My feeling is that the opportunity for mobility, to give people the opportunity to go to university and move up in society, is more important … we shouldn't ignore it."

Professor Schwartz, who took up his position at Macquarie in February, did not rule out choosing students for some courses on a combination of marks and other factors, but said it would be difficult for the university to overhaul entry requirements unilaterally.

Although the US and British higher education systems look at a variety of factors when accepting students, Australia has not held the same debate.

The most notable exception to the rule is medicine, for which applicants sit a separate exam and most universities run interviews. Other courses consider auditions or portfolios in addition to marks.

"I don't think anyone in the UK or US would want to go on with a system like [Australia's] because it's so mechanical," Professor Schwartz said. "It's hard to believe that [the difference between] a 99.4 and a 99.5 means anything and yet it changes your life."

The British review run by Professor Schwartz argued students' backgrounds should be taken into account in selection for university, because those from poorer backgrounds were less likely to achieve high grades. Admissions should not be biased in favour of students from certain backgrounds, but their achievements should be put in context, it said.

George Cooney, a professor in education at Macquarie and chairman of the NSW University Admission Index scaling committee, said many faculties were already considering factors other than marks and offering programs to disadvantaged students. University admission procedures in Britain and the US were markedly different to those here, so they should not be compared, he said.
 

Phanatical

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He's right, of course. The current system offers too much emphasis on HSC scores, with no consideration towards extra-curricular skills, interests and ideas a potential student can contribute. The UAI, at best, offers an indicator as to the possible capacity for overall study a student has - but a simple index is not enough to assess a student's suitability for a particular course.

When I entered uni, UAI was just one of many factors into the Music (Composition) degree. I had to demonstrate a basic knowledge of musical theory (the music skills test), an application of that knowledge (composition portfolio), and that the course was the right one for me (interview). I don't understand how university applications can even be considered without even meeting a person.
 
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xeuyrawp

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Phanatical said:
I don't understand how university applications can even be considered without even meeting a person.
Probably has something to do with the thousands of people applying, the added stress of an interview, the interview becoming just another exam, people just getting coaching for the interview anyway, etc etc.

And I don't understand how an interview for, for example, a prospective BSci (Maths and Physics) student would differentiate them for other students, especially when the university and HSC content is much more similar than your music course. I can see where you're coming from, but sometimes, non-academic things are almost irrelevant.
 
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Anonymou5

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For trivial courses, interviews might help in the selection of more suitable candidates. For example, in such trivial courses, having worked in a cafe is highly relevant as this is the likely job which the prospective student will gain upon graduation.

However for real courses, to add any additional requirements to the selection process for entry would be an absolute insult. Not everyone does courses where anyone, rather than just a select few talented people, can simply cruise through an entire semester doing nothing and still do well in the exams. The point is that you are only considering this situation from the perspective of a student taking a trivial course. Oh yeah man, the skills I gained in kicking pig skin in between two posts for a few years really helped me deduce the most general solution of a vector ODE with a constant coefficient n*n matrix. Idiot...
 
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ridewitme

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Like some others have said it really depends on the course that is being taken. For example, the BIT course at UTS requires an application with questionairre, which then proceeds onto an interview before final selection. I think the interview and questionairre would find a student that is involved in extra curricular activities and would be more suited to the course (the course offers scholarships from sponsor organisations, the sponsors sit in on the interviews as they have to pay for your education!).




- Andrew.
 

Phanatical

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Anonymou5 said:
For trivial courses, interviews might help in the selection of more suitable candidates. For example, in such trivial courses, having worked in a cafe is highly relevant as this is the likely job which the prospective student will gain upon graduation.

However for real courses, to add any additional requirements to the selection process for entry would be an absolute insult. Not everyone does courses where anyone, rather than just a select few talented people, can simply cruise through an entire semester doing nothing and still do well in the exams. The point is that you are only considering this situation from the perspective of a student taking a trivial course. Oh yeah man, the skills I gained in kicking pig skin in between two posts for a few years really helped me deduce the most general solution of a vector ODE with a constant coefficient n*n matrix. Idiot...
So what's your idea of a "trivial" course, and what's your idea of a "real" course?
 

Captain Gh3y

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Phanatical said:
So what's your idea of a "trivial" course, and what's your idea of a "real" course?
Arts & Not-Arts respectively. Hence the part about working in a cafe post-degree. Duh.

Seriously though, I'd be massively against this idea, because this time last year when uni places were being decided, I had no extra-curricular activities to speak of, and absolutley could not make a decent attempt at an interview if I had to.

It would be a massive injustice to let people who bludged around at school into uni because they could be all happy and talkative for 10 minutes (due mostly to the nature of their personality, really ) in an interview and tell people about their trivial sports and community bullshit that they participated in. I hate people like that, there's too many of them at uni already. Uni should be for nerds and nerds alone. :mad:
 

snowbunny

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i think they should definately take into account your extra-curricular participation and achievements...people put in a lot of effort into their passions such as performing arts, sports, and stuff like that

people that participate in extra things have gained lots of life experience and skills..

it displays initiative and passion for what you love! ... and that's what the world needs
 

snowbunny

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Captain Gh3y said:
tell people about their trivial sports and community bullshit that they participated in. I hate people like that :mad:
yes thats true there'd be a lot of bullshitters but the people in the selection process would see past that...


what mostly counts is your marks but they'd look at what you've achieved besides academics and if you've just missed out on the cut-off, they may consider you

of course this process wouldnt work for everyone...just for the select few who have really excelled in other areas and 'just' missed out
 
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xeuyrawp

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Phanatical said:
So what's your idea of a "trivial" course, and what's your idea of a "real" course?
Seriously, don't respond to that shit. It's all the same, so just ignore it.
 

lala2

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I say it depends on the course. You don't want a musician who doesn't have basic aural and theory training. Similarly, you would like someone applying for medicine to at least try and be emphatic with patients--they're feeling sick and crappy, after all. But for more theoretical courses, it's not really necessary, and it would be a nightmare trying to organise all these interviews. And if interviews were necessary, it should only be for people who are good in other things and 'just' missed out, not some person who bludged all year and got in on the basis of talking well for 10 minutes.
 

mr_brightside

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Consistent marks throughout High School.
1st rankings in 4 subjects in Year 8.
High 80's and low 90's in SC.
1st ranking in 2 subjects in Year 11
Debating 7- 10
School Band and Choir throughout 7 - 12
Visual Arts Gifted and Talented Year 9
Social Justice Vice President.
Participation in all swimming and athletics carvnivals
Part of school rep Tennis squad.
Volunteer Librarian in school library.

but wait...

Year 12 One bad year where I didnt do too well for personal reasons.

hardly fucking fair.


edit: yes I was a major nerd :eek:
 

blackfriday

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hsc is process to see who cracks and who doesnt, but from what i saw last year, most of it is in your head. for most courses, uai is good enough, but the only other courses that need selection criteria should be law. how can a person who cant understand english too well, and got the uai required on the back of maths and physics marks be able to understand those thick-ass textbooks? some kids get screwed, but thats life - you get lucky or too bad.
 

iwannarock

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i think hsc marks are good indicators of somebody who may not necessarily be intelligent, but have proven that they are a hard worker.

all things considered i think the current system is fine. the people that do well at uni are those that work and study hard. these are usually people that have proven to have such strengths in the hsc.

an interview system would be ridiculous. too time consuming.

and in saying this i am a walking contradiction. did well in hsc.........and i am a waste of a valuable law position at maq. but i earnt that right. and i focus more on the music side of my degree anyway.

wow dan you would have been quite the nerd.

sucks about year 12 for you but. ever thought of doing it again? although i'd imagine you'd never want to. actually tafe for one year and you can arrive second year into uni.

thats if you want to go to uni that is.:santa:
 

volition

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The issue with the UAI is that it sums up a person with one number, when people are multifaceted.

Let me give you an example: My two best mates: One got a UAI of 94.5 and the other got a UAI of 81.15. The one who got the UAI 81.15 would be much more suited to being a journalist, and this is something we all agree on. Now, which one would have had it easier to get into a journalism course? The one with the UAI 94.5 of course.

People can end up being assessed more on their other skills rather than their ability in that particular subject.
 

Phanatical

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As I told my Chair of unit at my interview, I was incredibly pissed off that my ability to study music would be judged by my scores in subjects like Physics, English and SDD. By UAI alone, I probably would not have gained entry to my course - I was made an offer because of my performance in the music skills test, pushing me ahead of people whose UAI's were considerably higher than mine. A friend of mine scored 10 UAI points higher than me, and received identical HSC music marks (82/42), yet I was offered a place ahead of her because I demonstrated a greater suitability for the course.
 

James87

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Just an interesting idea
Studies in organisational psyc have found that doctors hold quite a low level of EQ (Emotional Intelligence). This suggests that they are not overly empathetic, or able to 'put themselves into their patients shoes'. Obviously this isn;t the case at all times, and there must be a level of desensitisation they go through.
thought it was interesting nonetheless.
 

Pilgrim

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i agree. i barely study because the subjects are fucking boring. if i could concentrate on one main subject such as law i could go well in it, but because i suck at the other subjects i wont get in.
 

Captain Gh3y

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Pilgrim said:
i agree. i barely study because the subjects are fucking boring. if i could concentrate on one main subject such as law i could go well in it, but because i suck at the other subjects i wont get in.
How dare they make you do something you don't like!

They should include stuff like partying and other type social activities in uni entry criteria, otherwise it wouldn't be fair to those who prefer doing those things to studying!
 

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