The meaning of multiculturalism and its limits (1 Viewer)

[Generator]

I heard about this piece on the radio this morning, and I thought that given other recent threads (and one that was deleted for some reason, I believe), this opinion piece would spark a bit of a debate (in all likelihood a contentious debate, I know). So, here it is -

Time to set some limits
By Pamela Bone
July 18, 2005


For the past two years Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad has preached in a London mosque, calling for Muslims to wage a holy war against Britain. Seemingly no one in tolerant, free-speech Britain has thought it a good idea to stop him. At a public meeting last December, he vowed that if Western governments did not change their policies, Muslims would give them "a 9/11 day after day after day".

It is almost certain now that last week's attacks on the London underground were carried out by young British men of Pakistani background. British intelligence estimates that 10,000 to 15,000 Muslims living in Britain support al-Qaeda.

It was not supposed to be like this. The idea was that tolerance and liberalism towards migrants would in turn make migrants tolerant and good citizens. Instead, Britain became a haven for terrorists. Did the bomb blasts in the London Underground mark the death of multiculturalism?

Multiculturalism means that migrants are not only allowed but encouraged to retain and celebrate their own cultures. To do so they receive financial help from governments to build schools and places of worship and community centres. Canada started it. We've had it here and it's mainly been wonderful, enriching the whole of the society. But is it now time to start thinking more about its limits? Couscous yes, child marriage no?

The acts of terror carried out by Islamic extremists lead to hostility against and suspicion of all Muslims, which is grossly unfair. The vast majority of Muslims, as political leaders rightly hasten to assure us after every terrorist attack, are decent, law-abiding citizens. I believe this is true. Indeed, all the Muslims I know personally are nice, decent, law-abiding citizens, going about their business like other Australians.

But in Melbourne the day after September 11, Muslim students at a state high school danced on the desks with glee. What are these young people being taught by their decent and law-abiding parents? Literature being sold at a store attached to a Brunswick mosque tells Muslims they should "hate and take as enemies" Jews, Christians, atheists and secularists, and that they should "learn to hate in order to properly love Allah". How many Muslims complain when they see this kind of hate literature? Did the large Sydney audience complain when Sheikh Feiz Muhammad charged recently that because of the way they dressed, women had only themselves to blame if they were raped? No, they applauded him.

A group of Muslim organisations did, however, condemn Muhammad's speech. Other Muslim clerics are preaching moderation. And Muslim leaders are coming out more often to distance themselves from radical Islamist ideology. They will need to do so even more strongly now. Of course generalisations about Muslims, who come from many ethnic backgrounds, should not be made. But it is also clear that many - how many? no one knows - Muslims feel entitled to hate non-Muslims.

Should we blame multiculturalism for this? Does it mean we can't any longer afford to be as nice and welcoming as we would like to be? I hope not, for as others have observed, if we change our values in response to the threat of terrorism, the terrorists will have won.

We are not alone in asking these questions. In Britain today they are certainly being asked. In Canada, there is controversy about attempts to establish separate sharia courts to hear family law matters. In Europe there are big debates about the best ways to integrate the continent's 12 million Muslims. In Germany, where six "honour killings" have taken place this year, the Government has been accused of allowing Islamic fundamentalism to flourish under a policy of "false tolerance".

The Netherlands, once known for its liberalism, has been gripped by racial and religious tension since the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh, after he made a film critical of Islam.

A Somali-born politician, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has spoken out against the treatment of women in Dutch Muslim communities, is now living under protection. Muslims (mainly African) make up 5.5 per cent of the Dutch population but more than half the women in battered women's shelters.

In Norway, where young Muslim women have been forced by their families to marry cousins who can then come to live in Norway, a law has been passed requiring residents who want to bring spouses into the country to demonstrate the marriage is voluntary. This has resulted in a dramatic drop in the number of overseas-born spouses.

It is interesting that in France, the widely criticised ban on the wearing of headscarves in state schools has been fairly well accepted, according to reports. (I am not advocating such a ban here.) It is also interesting that in the US, where migrants are simply expected to accept the American dream, unlike in Britain, there appear to be few home-grown Islamic terrorists.

I have long valued multiculturalism. But there is something wrong when second and third-generation Muslims can believe the society in which they grew up - indeed, into which they were born - is evil to the core and needs to be destroyed. There is something wrong with multiculturalism when Muslims can attend mosques in Europe that are more radical than some in the Middle East.

At the very least, we should insist on the right to know what is being taught in schools and mosques. Perhaps it is time to say, it's been wonderful, but a few things need to be made clear. Perhaps it is time to say, you are welcome, but this is the way it is here.

Pamela Bone is an associate editor.

Source: http://www.theage.com.au/news/pamela-bone/time-to-set-some-limits/2005/07/17/1121538863185.html

Any thoughts? What is it that you consider multiculturalism to be? In a liberal democratic society, what should be considered a reasonable limit wth respect to tolerance (if not acceptance)? Etc.

 

[supercharged]

How so? If we wake up and realise that this minority group has, is and always will breed this extremists which threaten us, how have they won?
Changing policy to say "sorry, we don't want ya here!" is not letting *them* win at all? And even if in some way it does, who cares, at least they won't be here.

lol I get your point, it is letting the extremists win to a certain extent, however at least the public can have the confidence that they won't have their train or airplane blown up by some bomb happy idiot

 

[Sarah]

Well it would seem that Australia is a multicultural society but I there's a difference to having people of various cultures and having these people of various cultural background interacting.

And don't give food as an example of interacting with another culture. That's too obvious and is something that appeals to someones taste and preferecne (or appetite) for food rather than acceptance and embracing of cultural diversity.

What i'm getting at is that on face value it may appear that Australia is a multicultural society as is suggested by the wide range of cultures but when you look further, the interaction between cultures is questionable.

For example at university in lectures and tutorials, most Asians will sit together and non-Asians sit together (well at the uni i go to)

I guess though, it all depends on how you interpret multiculturalism.

 

[suger_plum]

tonight on one of the current affairs shows, there was this dude and he wants to introduce the white australia policy

 

[katie_tully]

Bullshit, when has multiculturalism worked? It doesn't for a number of reasons:

White Australians resent the fact that people from other cultures move here, and then expect rules and regulations to be changed to suit their religions or beliefs. For example, Islamic women demanding they be allowed to wear their head scarves and such when getting AUSTRALIAN LICENCES. If it's good enough for everybody else to show their ugly mugs, it's good enough for them. But that's just one example
It's unfathomable to expect that a multitude of difference races can live in harmony next to each other when their beliefs and value systems differ quite significantly. Anybody who speaks out against multiculturism automatically gets branded a racist, thus as somebody has already said, nobody is game enough to speak out.

We have books being sold in Lakemba which state that "To be called Australian is something to be ashamed of", "Australia has no culture". There are people from other races living in our country, yet they hate our culture and everything we value. Does this make any sense to anybody else? It sure as hell doesn't make sense to me. Is it because we've given them free range to voice their opinions and to exercise their right to free speech, something they don't have in their own countries?

As Asquithian said, first wave immigrants may not feel "Australian". I know my older family members spoke very minimal English, most of whom have passed away now. I know they didn't feel Australian, but it wasn't because they didn't like Australia. They loved Australia. Generations after them though, Australian born generations can identify with Australia. Asians are the same. Chinese and Japanese in particular, the Australian borns I know have integrated into Australian culture quite well. They may hold on to strands of their cultures from Asia but they have embraced our nation.

I don't think multiculturalism works when you let everybody live as though they would back home, but expect them to be mindful and respective of other people. It doesn't work. It never has.

 

[soha]

hm interesting article

 

[ogmzergrush]

But would you be surprised that asian kids sit together? White Australia hates them. Not for any cognitive reason. But because of their colour. They certainly havn't met these asian kids but 85% of ACA people felt that they should judge these people on the basis of their skin colour and thus come to the racist conclusion that they are 'dangerous'.

85% of ACA viewers does not represent White Australians, and if it does then count me the fuck out

 

[loquasagacious]

Tully, what exactly would you suggest? Deporting all muslims?

How do you propse filtering migration? ie it seems that onl;y in retrospect could you identify a group that does not integrate.

Finally I dispute the charge thath they do not integrate, on what basis is this assertion made? Anecdote? I personally know quite well integrated muslims, one girl at my old school for example wore the progressive style of robes (ie not a Kabul Burqa), however they were colour coded to school uniform colours. She's a friendly outgoing person, she played hockey for the school (on the girls team but thats another issue lol) and is now attending university.

Did Fraser comment that asians are also creating a cleaner class? That is that many who arrive(d) do not hold professional qualifications (or they are not recognised) and end up working in menial jobs. Such as cleaners in shopping centers, a good example is a fully qualified indian doctor who stacks shelves at the supermarket I work in. These workers work incredibly hard to provide oppurtunities to their children, asians become managers because their parents put numbers like 25% of their income into educating their children. In general White Australians value sport and invest in it, asians value education and invest in it.... the results are telling. If anything White Australia is a victim of its own choices.


NOTE: Drew Faser has been linked to neo-nazis by the Australian.

 

[ogmzergrush]

Am I the only one who finds all these generalisations about white australia unsettling (Not just this thread, but this is the latest one to remind me, and I figure I might as well comment this time)? I'm quite an open minded person and don't judge others based on the colour of their skin, because that's pretty retarded, but here I am learning that I'm a bogan meathead, generally interested in footy, vb, and meat pies, with a penchant for hating asians?

I realise it's all generalisations, and that hopefully people don't mean these things, but isn't it a little hypocritical to tar us all with the same brush when you're discussing the issue of intolerance?

 

[soha]

Tully, what exactly would you suggest? Deporting all muslims?

How do you propse filtering migration? ie it seems that onl;y in retrospect could you identify a group that does not integrate.

Finally I dispute the charge thath they do not integrate, on what basis is this assertion made? Anecdote? I personally know quite well integrated muslims, one girl at my old school for example wore the progressive style of robes (ie not a Kabul Burqa), however they were colour coded to school uniform colours. She's a friendly outgoing person, she played hockey for the school (on the girls team but thats another issue lol) and is now attending university.

Did Fraser comment that asians are also creating a cleaner class? That is that many who arrive(d) do not hold professional qualifications (or they are not recognised) and end up working in menial jobs. Such as cleaners in shopping centers, a good example is a fully qualified indian doctor who stacks shelves at the supermarket I work in. These workers work incredibly hard to provide oppurtunities to their children, asians become managers because their parents put numbers like 25% of their income into educating their children. In general White Australians value sport and invest in it, asians value education and invest in it.... the results are telling. If anything White Australia is a victim of its own choices.


NOTE: Drew Faser has been linked to neo-nazis by the Australian.

you cant exactly deport all muslims..considering there is an overwhelming number of converts..like thousands of them...i know and know of about 50 myself...
where are they gonna go?..when they are first and 3rd fleet tue blue australian..(my friend)
i know australian muslims who are of indian asian portugese lebanese scottish french english african pakistani fijian chinese etc decent that have become muslim and are australin by birth and citizenship etc

as for the indian doctor working at a supermarket
just like these iraqi trolley men who are qualified doctors..engineers..full educated people but in australia they have no qualifications and they are pushing trolleys 6 days a week for a mesely $500

 

[julius]

Multiculturalism has its limits when you have members of a minority instructing others to kill and maim the wider population. Such elements should not allowed into the country and those here already should've been kicked out. These people give others who have come here from overseas to live nervous (such as myself) and it gives racists an excuse to whinge about the shortcomings of multiculturalism.

 

[katie_tully]

Addymac, I don't suggest anything because I don't know of a solution. Nor did I say Muslims have not integrated, I don't know any so I can't make that comment. I said Asians have integrated quite well, the ones I know.
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to only comment on the comments I made, and not the comments you think I made?

 

[Generator]

. These workers work incredibly hard to provide oppurtunities to their children, asians become managers because their parents put numbers like 25% of their income into educating their children. In general White Australians value sport and invest in it, asians value education and invest in it.... the results are telling. If anything White Australia is a victim of its own choices.

Hold up. As much of a generalisation as that may be, why is it that you appear to give greater value to academic/rote learning practices than any other? What is with this apparent belief in that a financial outlay is also indicative of the greater value attached to an education, too? To suggest that 'white' Australia does not value its education or future to the degree of more recent immigrants is disgusting, really.

Edit: That final line does seem a little too strong, but I guess that I'll stand by it.

 

[...]

yeah, i'm agreeing with Asqy on that one (although to say all asians are like that is a bit far fetch)

i've been through the asian and asutralia's education system, so i think i'm more than "qualified" to comment

back in yr1, i had 2 booklets worth of maths questions to do each night, a booklet on general science, then a combined units of social studies, health education. A unit of religion, and Chinese studies. To finish off the night, i have arts to do as well

this is back in yr1, each night i finish my work approx. 11 - 12 at night and wake up 6 the next morning for school. Looking back at my diary, i worked out the amount of time i spent at school each day is more than the time i spent in a high school here (even yr12 hsc)

 

[...]

Fair points, but is it the attitude of the kids or the parents? Do they really want what they're aiming for, or is it someone else telling them that's what they're aiming for?

argonaut: read my post

if you have been through this kind of education, and doesn't have much say because of the so call "asian discipline", chances are you don't really think much about *what you really want* but more *what should i do to impress my parents more*

a lot of people hate accounting and law, but why are there so many asians enrolling into that degree???

 

[Generator]

Don't confuse a focus on education and a focus on getting the best marks possible as being one and the same, Asquithian.

 

[ogmzergrush]

STFU, no body counted you in, in the first place you wanna-be do gooder.

Edit: To clarify my stance, you don't sound like a very nice person.

 

[011]

Yes, we know. But the thing is, is even if you do only kick out the *bad* ones.. The odds are, that some of the descendants of the supposed "good" ones, are still going to be lop sided towards that radical side of the equation. There is one solution, with two parts. Do something about the ones already here, and severely torture the government officials who let them in.

Hahah I'm sure torture will be recieved with wide appreciation.

You don't think 'doing something' to those here will arouse feelings of others, whereas kicking them out won't?

A far more preferable approach is to loosen our involvement with the Iraq situation, if you want to go for straight hypotheticals.

 

[Serius]

i like asians. alot of them do integrate and are easy to socialise with. true that some of them form groups and stick togther, but i find that in no way threatening. it probably creates some type of barrier between us, but there is usually one there anyways, either language or culture and i dont try and breach that barrier, but if someone does i dont turn them down either. asians work harder because they want it more. they deserve to be succesful.

muslims dont piss me off, i have less respect for them than asians though. the females are passive and do not irritate me at all, and the older more mature males are quite worldly and easy to talk to. its the younger, 2nd or 3rd generation muslims that piss me off when they form gangs and seem to hate so much. i dont understand their hate, i was kinda upset over 9/11 but i ddint develop feelings of righteous hate for the terrorists, i dont understand their feelings eithe, could just be something fucked up in their brains... america has done nothing to directly effect these individuals that could cause them to hate so much.

i think this guy is pretty much spot on, but it does sadden me that many people think the solution is to end multiculturualism. it has been good and i hope there is another solution

 

[ogmzergrush]

Multiculturalism went out the door almost 10 years ago when Howard stepped in. So did reconciliation. I didn't read any of the other posts except the first one because I'm sure theyre all depressing as hell but just thought i'd comment. Katie Tully I shudder knowing people like you exist

So you only read the first post, but also happen to be in a position to shudder at katie, despite her being posts 8 and 15? I detect a conspiracy!