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The Burkha, what do you think? Taliban or Qur'an? (1 Viewer)

tempco

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PwarYuex said:
I lived in an Islamic country for a year, I think I have validity when I speak about it.
bear in mind that islam isn't necessarily practiced "better" in an islamic country (i'm guessing egypt?).


PwarYuex said:
Yes, I've conducted an extensive survey of every single Muslim man. All the Muslim men that I've met don't count for anything untill they're in a survey. :rolleyes:
have you spoken to a muslim woman who wears the scarf?

and i'd also like to know why you think the scarf/burqa/veil oppresses and controls its wearer?

(btw, i haven't worn the burqa either. :p)
 
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xeuyrawp

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tempco said:
bear in mind that islam isn't necessarily practiced "better" in an islamic country (i'm guessing egypt?).
No... I've never been to Egypt *grumbles grumbles*

I lived in Malaysia, although I've been to a fair share of Middle-Eastern countries due to father's work.

have you spoken to a muslim woman who wears the scarf?
Yes, many.

and i'd also like to know why you think the scarf/burqa/veil oppresses and controls its wearer?
I find it hard to articulate, I think. I'll get back to you with a better answer.

(btw, i haven't worn the burqa either. :p)
Well that'll be our little secret. I must get a photo of me in my stupid dishdasha thingo- it is so cool, and I can say that 'I made it myself'.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Looking at googaloo's sig, and reading about a line of her thing I can tell this is either a troll or someone whom is defining their life by being muslim. i.e. "LOOK AT ME I WEAR A HEADSCARF! LOOK AT MY STRUGGLE!", it is about as moving as teenage rebels that cut their wrists.
 

sly fly

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Mumma said:
How about someone shows me a verse from the quran that says women need to wear the hijab (cover their hair). Because i swear to you, you will not find one.
So what's your point? The Quran is not the only book that Muslims go by. The sunnah of the prophet (saw) and his family (as) highlight the importance of hijab (including the covering of the hair).

and anyway....you can't just read the quran at face value, you have to understand the interpretations, dialect, grammar etc etc. For example, the Quran uses the word khimar. The root word of khimar is khumur, which relates to the head.
 

supercharged

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why cover the hair? why not just shave it off if you find it so offensive that it needs to be covered?
 

sly fly

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supercharged said:
why cover the hair? why not just shave it off if you find it so offensive that it needs to be covered?
Hair is attractive, not offensive
 

googooloo

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supercharged said:
why cover the hair? why not just shave it off if you find it so offensive that it needs to be covered?

To have a woman with short hair is to be masculine...this then shaving the head would be wrong. Hair is beautiful--it's not offensive and wrong---it's beauty is i guess u could say one reason why u would cover it.
 

googooloo

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Not-That-Bright said:
Looking at googaloo's sig, and reading about a line of her thing I can tell this is either a troll or someone whom is defining their life by being muslim. i.e. "LOOK AT ME I WEAR A HEADSCARF! LOOK AT MY STRUGGLE!", it is about as moving as teenage rebels that cut their wrists.
WOAH! No it is not...if i mentioned anything baout scraf wearing on myself i can't remember---cutting the wrists is not eh same as hijab wearing u cna't compare the 2! Imposible!
 

googooloo

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Not-That-Bright said:
"LOOK AT ME I WEAR A HEADSCARF! LOOK AT MY STRUGGLE!"
I never said I was struggling, infact I've neva encounted direct insults or 'struggle' alone, only when with another muslim firned--does that mean it is safer for me to walk alone?
 

googooloo

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tangerinespeedo said:
Thank you Mr. Expert on Islam. Not every Muslim that goes to a mosque wears white, it's just that those who do are often of west asian descent where men's clothes are often colourless or bland. I've seen many people who are a living contradiction to what you have just said and they are extremely pious people....hence proving that wearing the head scarf doesn't hinder a woman from becoming empowerd.
Hijab is to empower women, not show them as objects. and not every men of west asian descent wears white ot mosque either...white is suposed to be worn becasue itis a good colour it is sunnah, told to us by prophet muhammad(pbuh) and that is why most women wear white prayer clothes.
 

googooloo

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tempco said:
male sexual arousal is primarily caused by visual stimuli. female sexual arousal is primarily caused by touch and thoughts.
This is highly true, and the talk about tribes in the world that have women and men naked is differnet. The purpose of western clothing is to objectify women, to make them sexy looking, in the tribes this is not so, it is not for the purpose of sex. I am not sure why they dress so... lack of clothe making products? In their religous history to dress so as muslims are to cover so? not certain--ask them if u want to know, though I don't think anyone really knows do you?

Anywya back to burka topic, i do not think u have ot walk ina aburka to know a burka, there is empathy, and opiniosn and that is waht is to eb heard here today, but beign in one does help.--wrap a sheet round yourself and walk around for a day if u don't have oen and want ot try it.
 

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I am reminded of a skit on that nine Comedy show a few nights ago (Comedy Inc (?)).

Aerboics class Islam style. If you saw it you'll know what i mean.
 

MajinR

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how much spare time do some people have???

...why dont you people admit your wrong...you wear the burka because you like being oppressed and you've learnt viewpoints from only one angle...its ok, its only natural to be a follower and submit yourself to certain beliefs...
 

tempco

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http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=130

The invisible hijab

By Jane Caro

Thanks to Bronwyn Bishop and Sophie Panopoulos, I have recently heard more Muslim women defending their choice to wear a veil than ever before. But, from what I’ve heard so far, they may use different words, but it adds up to the same justification. The hijab protects them from the lustful glances of men, and liberates them from the need to be sexually attractive.

While I would defend the right of anyone to wear anything (yes, even the dreadful burkha, much as it makes me shudder), such a justification saddens me. I would much rather these young women said they wanted to wear the headscarf because it identifies them with their religion, or they think it looks good on them, or it is their cultural tradition, or, (dream on) because it gets up the noses of their teachers, certain Liberal members of parliament and authority in general. But no such luck. Universally, even the strongest and most articulate of these young women talk about the headscarf and modest attire as a way of controlling male sexuality.

Some of them go further, as have some of the male apologists for the hijab. They go on to criticise the extreme sexualisation of western women, the obsession the west has with female appearance and with displaying it as fully and as sexily as possible. They defend the hijab as being vastly preferable to the alternative; the oppression of women that is caused by the need for them to continually and competitively appeal to the male eye.
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And, it seems to me, they have a point. There is something bizarre about the extremes western women are prepared to go to look good. Show me a woman from 13 to 70, and I’ll show you someone who is either on a diet, or thinks she should be on one. Survey after survey has shown that western women obsess about their weight and their appearance. All of us, overweight, healthy weight or underweight, want to lose some. And, if dieting doesn’t do it, more and more of us are prepared to resort to drugs or even surgery. (Interestingly, all this effort seems to come to nothing as women get fatter and fatter, but that is the subject of a future article.)

As I approach 50, I am occasionally asked if I would ever consider getting “work” done: “work” being the current euphemism for plastic surgery (and, yes, I do feel vaguely insulted). But even if we wouldn’t resort to such extremes, most of us still spend a small fortune on expensive face creams we know don’t work and spend hours and hundreds of dollars at the hairdressers and the beauticians. We’re all going to pilates or yoga or spin classes. We say for our health, but we really mean our shape.

Most of the women I know regard buying a swimming costume as one of the most painful experiences in life. Exquisitely beautiful young women of my acquaintance complain about their (invisible) flaws. And I am, and always have been, one of the worst. I now look back on pictures of myself when young and wondered why I never took pleasure in my appearance. I warn younger women against doing the same thing all the time, but to no avail. As much wiser feminists than I am have pointed out many times, keeping female energy focused on appearance disempowers us and makes us much less threatening. In the West, an entire gender, while claiming to be newly liberated, has never been more neurotic about the way they look.

And there is a lot resting on this. Entire economies would probably crumble if one day every woman in the western world woke up, slapped herself on the forehead, and said, “Oh my God, I’m fine just the way I am”. Which, of course, is why women’s magazines, marketing, advertising, TV, film, pop music and popular culture of all kinds are so keen on helping women remain terminally insecure about their appearance.

It seems to me that we in the West should be rather careful before we indulge in any feelings of superiority over the way we treat women. Mind you, I thank the universe daily that my daughters and I live in the West. There is no denying that women in developed Judeo Christian cultures, regardless of backlash, have got more rights and opportunities than many of their sisters in the Muslim world. But, when it comes to our own sexuality, I sometimes wonder if we are not mirror images of one another. The Islamic method of dealing with the erotic effect of women is to emphasis their disappearance, while ours is to emphasise their appearance.

Both societies, in some very fundamental way, place the responsibility for male sexual response on female shoulders. Among Muslim women, they must cover up to feel safe and accepted. Women who are uncovered automatically invite sexual approaches. Among western women, we must attract men to us to feel safe and accepted. Those who don’t are often both pitied and despised, (witness such programs as Extreme Make-overs).

Worse, in both cases it is women who not only collude but are often the most active agents in their own oppression. It is women who perform female circumcision on six-year-olds, it is women who rationalise and justify their need to hide from the world. It is women who criticise one another’s appearance most cruelly, it is women who buy the magazines and the products that feed our own and one another’s insecurities. Who among us hasn’t felt a secret frisson of pleasure when a skinny friend gains weight? An example, perhaps of Stockholm Syndrome, where captives collude with their captors to survive. We may appear to do it to ourselves, but we are dancing to a male tune. And, east and west, we dance the same push pull dance. Muslim women dance to repel-attract, because that which is mysterious and hidden is highly erotic. Western women dance to attract-repel, because that which is young, beautiful and desirable quickly fades.

Most women still only acquire power through their relationship with a man, whether boss, husband, lover or son, and we are trained from birth to please them. But don’t get me wrong, this is no-one’s fault. It is simply that our emotional integration always lags behind our intellectual understanding. Despite our awareness of what we do to ourselves and to one another, we still find it hard to change our behaviour. This is human and understandable, but we mustn’t forget why we want to change in the first place. For female sexuality to have to be either faceless or in your face is no choice at all.

As long as we continue to take responsibility for male sexuality, we will continue to compromise and distort ourselves. Perhaps dieting, cosmetics, botox and plastic surgery disguise our individuality and humanity in a similar way to the hijab. Having to look gorgeous is almost as oppressive as not being allowed to be seen at all, and just as destructive to our sense of ourselves.

First published in issue 56 of New Matilda on September 21, 2005.

Jane Caro is a Sydney writer with particular interests in women, families and education. She is the convenor of Priority Public.
 

supercharged

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googooloo said:
This is highly true, and the talk about tribes in the world that have women and men naked is differnet. The purpose of western clothing is to objectify women, to make them sexy looking, in the tribes this is not so, it is not for the purpose of sex. I am not sure why they dress so... lack of clothe making products?
And whats wrong with sex appeal? Some people actually like being horny unlike those 'no joy' taliban...
 

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That was a fair piece, tempco, but please keep in mind that as the hijab represents more than a bandaid to account for men, 'western' notions of fashion and sexuality aren't exactly one dimensional, too (you may be well aware of this, but I thought that it would be best to say so, anyway).
 

sly fly

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MajinR said:
how much spare time do some people have???

...why dont you people admit your wrong...you wear the burka because you like being oppressed and you've learnt viewpoints from only one angle...its ok, its only natural to be a follower and submit yourself to certain beliefs...
I sincerely doubt that any BOSer wears a burqa. Furthermore, I am sceptical as to whether you even know what a burqa is.....
 

googooloo

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MajinR said:
how much spare time do some people have???

...why dont you people admit your wrong...you wear the burka because you like being oppressed and you've learnt viewpoints from only one angle...its ok, its only natural to be a follower and submit yourself to certain beliefs...
Maybe you should go to this website, and maybe you'll actually have something good to say on this topic, like justifying why you think so...but this websites justifies hijab and why women cover themelves so in islam, and that Burka is another interpretation of the covering--tho face and hands is not compulsory, but an option and if u want to u can.

http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/hijab.asp

it tells u everything u need to know:

and to give an example from the site here's this quote:

The liberation of women in Islam is far superior to Western liberation as it allows women to live with respect, dignity and equality in society.

Equality does not mean aping and behaving like men or dancing to their carnal tunes; that would be an act of inferiority in the face of one's own femininity.

A truly liberated woman always dresses decently and modestly. A true woman will never degrade her body and sell her dignity to the highest bidder. No woman is truly liberated if she is still the slave of her wayward conscience, bodily lust or infidelity.

However, in Islam, women, whatever their role as mothers, wives, sisters or daughters, command respect and have a constructive role to play in society. The Hijab itself gives an aura of freedom to the womankind, facilitating their movement and protecting them from provocation and wanton greed of the human wolves. Removal of the Hijab makes you vulnerable to the lust of men.

By removing your Hijab, you have destroyed your faith. Islam means submission to Allah (s.w.t.) in all our actions. Those who refuse submission cannot be called Muslims.
 

googooloo

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BASELESS OBJECTIONS AGAINST HIJAB:

* It seeks to imprison women: Those who feel that Hijab imprisons women should refrain from living in houses because it is nearer to a prison than Hijab.
* It subordinates women: In fact, culture, which promotes nakedness, takes people nearer to the culture of animals. Wearing the Hijab, on the contrary, liberates women from the trap of Western fashion and maladies. It gives them greater, rather than less freedom and mobility.
* Why only women? Science has confirmed that visual stimulation plays a predominant role in the physiology of men compared to women. The fact that the sex-industry in the West is targeted towards the male-market confirms it.
* Victims of Ridicule: Some of our sisters come up with the excuse that the non-believers laugh at them if they observe Hijab and they feel degraded. They may laugh for a little while but after some time they will have no choice but to respect the Muslim women observing Hijab for their discipline, which could not be shaken, by their little laughs.
* Let us not forget the famous phrase: The one who laughs last laughs the longest".
* Beauty is meant to be appreciated: True! But only by the husband. Hence women who truly love their husbands would never wish to be seen in public without Hijab.

WHAT ARE THE DISADVANTAGES OF DISCARDING HIJAB?

* Becoming an easy target of anti-social elements.
* Causing great stresses, insecurity and suspicion in the minds of husbands, ultimately disturbing the familial harmony.
* Instigating young people to deviate towards the path of lust and immorality.
* Giving rise to cases of divorce, adultery, rape & illegitimate children.

WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES OF OBSERVING HIJAB?

* Confidence in social participation as human being and not as sexual commodity.
* Guarding one self from the lustful looks of men.
* Not diverting people's attention from constructive social work.
* Improving the moral character of the society.
 

googooloo

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Allah states in Qur'an: "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! Turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss." Holy Qur'an (24:31)

Also, Imam Jaffer Sadiq (a.s.) says: Modesty is the symbol of faith and whoever has no modesty (Hijab), has no religion.


Allah (s.w.t) has given equal rights to both men and women; He forbids either sex claiming supremacy over the other.

Allah states Qur'an: "Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you." Holy Qur'an (49:13)

Hijab is one of the righteous deeds and it is a sign of honor and equality with men and stands as a shield of protection against evil man.

The woman in Islam is bestowed with respect and honor and a Muslim gives great importance to his wife. Our Prophet Muhammad's (s.a.w.) Hadith says the best of you are those who are best in resting their wives.

The status of wife is so respectable that she is not bound to do any house-hold work unless she does it willingly and with affection; but if her husband forces her to do any work, he will have to answer to Allah for his conduct. Also, she is not bound to earn and maintain the house of her husband. Her work shall always conform to the laws of Shariat. Unlike the Western world, the Muslim wife is a queen in her husband's house. The first thing a husband does for his wife is to provide a servant and a cook according to his ability and when she becomes a mother, she receives greatest respect from her husband. Contrary to this, is considered a sin by Allah (s.w.t.)

One of the most common phrases in Islam is the 'Paradise lies at the feet of the mother'. And Allah (s.w.t) states in Qur'an: Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honor. Holy Qur'an (17:23)

Allah (s.w.t.) has given great impedance to women and for that reason He orders their children to address them in terms of honor.

What kind of dignity a non-believer has by the way they conduct their life and expose themselves. They have removed the shield of protection, that modesty of Hijab and left themselves unprotected and that is the cause for the assault, which takes place once every ten seconds in rape and murder around the world. But those true Muslims who observe proper Hijab are protected from such assaults and not one ease or this type is ever heard of.

Moreover Hijab also gives the women an air of authority, dignity and respect, which a non-believer can never claim to possess. Only those who are well behaved can expect admiration and high esteem from others and definitely, those who try to attract men can never be called a well-behaved person.
 

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