The Beijing Olympics (2 Viewers)

[Iron]

The Chinese people are so well educated. I'm grinning at their selective cheering.

Trained cheerleaders in each section of the stadium coached the auidence in how to get on-message, miming when they should applaud, and for how long

The Australian

 

[Dongle]

You mean the government endorsed cheer they have to use?

One World United Under Motherland China! PEace and Human Rights for All!

My God, cut it out. They're free to form their own opinions about other countries, and a cheer won't land them in jail. The cheer for Pakistan was the largest since their country donated all their large tents as soon as the Sichuan earthquake occured. The government might shape their opinions, yes, but they're not going to get executed if their cheer the wrong team. Doesn't every government try to shape public opinion to some extent? At least I didn't hear any boos!

You have to admit, the opening ceremony was pretty breathtaking!

Change doesn't come smoothly when you force your values upon others. It has to be gradual. Most Chinese people would like for it to be that way as well.

 

[bigboyjames]

You mean the government endorsed cheer they have to use?

One World United Under Motherland China! PEace and Human Rights for All!

Here we go again with your propaganda "Freedom of the press", "human rights" etc, etc, etc.
Given their recent track record of western media you should srsly stfu.

We neither need nor want sports journalists opinions on human rights. <---- read that buddy, i want to read Aussie gold medals, not about some fucking Chinese law.

Where was the criticism of Australias's treatment of Aborigines.
They were moved out of the the newspapers all together while the games were on.

just want to say one sentence: If you want to make some comments about China. Please go to China yourself and talk to local Chinese to see what they care and like and dislike.

 

[lala2]

What did everyone think of the opening ceremony? I thought it was cool, the display, especially the movable type and the dancers painting with their hands, but I was so tired, I fell asleep multiple times throughout the night. It was so bad, I saw them get the torch out, and then I fell asleep, next thing I knew the whole ceremony was over! Argh! Are Olympic opening ceremonies usually this long? Though I am pleased to have seen the shots of Nadal and Federer.

 

[bigboyjames]

What did everyone think of the opening ceremony? I thought it was cool, the display, especially the movable type and the dancers painting with their hands, but I was so tired, I fell asleep multiple times throughout the night. It was so bad, I saw them get the torch out, and then I fell asleep, next thing I knew the whole ceremony was over! Argh! Are Olympic opening ceremonies usually this long? Though I am pleased to have seen the shots of Nadal and Federer.

ok, first half hour was really really good. never seen anything like that before. but after the dancers who started painting on the massive paper it got boring...and when that massive globe came out .....well that was awsome. it was really good i must say...best ever? not sure, cant remember Sydney and i didn't watch the Athens ceremony.

i went to sleep after Australia and china came out. was really surprised at what the Aussies were wearing...it was blue? not green and gold? whats going on!

 

[lala2]

^^Oh yeah, and that too. blue?! It was a nice costume, but the issue is they weren't wearing green and gold! haha, I forgot about that globe...it was awesome though. If Sarah Brightman really was singing that and not miming, she's got pretty good intonation and feel for the words she was singing. There are some pretty interesting countries out there as well, it was good for my general knowledge.

 

[bigboyjames]

Lot has been said about China's past being covered in the opening ceremony. i am wondering whether england are learning lessons here about how they will do the opening ceremony in four years time. Please remember to tell all about your history - colonialism, imperialism, the robbing of the world's treasures, the slave trade or rather bonded labour, the divide and rule policies, the taking out the ruler and drawing straight lines to make countries...there's so much to cover. Will they manage?

 

[sam04u]

Lot has been said about China's past being covered in the opening ceremony. i am wondering whether england are learning lessons here about how they will do the opening ceremony in four years time. Please remember to tell all about your history - colonialism, imperialism, the robbing of the world's treasures, the slave trade or rather bonded labour, the divide and rule policies, the taking out the ruler and drawing straight lines to make countries...there's so much to cover. Will they manage?

Brilliant post.
+1

 

[bigboyjames]

Brilliant post.
+1

fuck, i thought you were going to bash me about my anti west propaganda...and then be asked to leave Australia. lol

 

[AlleyCat]

the thing that puzzles me is that whilst most countries have some degree of shame for actions their government or past leaders have done, eg the treatment of australian, canadian and american indigenous people, slavery in the US, the holocaust and many many other instances, the vast majority of chinese people staunchly defend the right of their governments, past and present, to murder, torture, sterilise and harvest the organs of people who they wish to silence.

i dont understand why. i mean, the american government at present has committed many injustices, but citizens question motives, research patterns of behavior and eventually change their govt if required.

part of me wonders whether the people of china have such a deep seated case of stockhold syndrome that they wouldnt avail themselves of information if it was free to them.

 

[AlleyCat]

Yo Alison I looked into the organ harvesting stuff (Asked a good mate of my dad who's a senior ABC journo and has been arrested in China about 10 times and was doing heaps of research on the falun gong stuff for a few years) and it seems to be bullshit.

The oppression is still there, though.

there is a report by two canadian human rights lawyers into the organ harvesting allegations which concludes that it is likely to have happened.

http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report0701/report20070131.htm#_Toc160145104

there are different views on the subject, but the report is interesting.

 

[Slidey]

Yo Alison I looked into the organ harvesting stuff (Asked a good mate of my dad who's a senior ABC journo and has been arrested in China about 10 times and was doing heaps of research on the falun gong stuff for a few years) and it seems to be bullshit.

The oppression is still there, though.

Actually, it's not bullshit per se, it's just that the Chinese government has removed all but anecdotal evidence of it.

I agree it's a poor point to bring up as a justification for China's human rights abuses (most of which are psychological rather than physical anyway), though, especially when there are plenty of more concrete ones.

See, I think that's the thing; Chinese nationalists automatically think human rights abuses = restriction of physical freedom when really that comprises but a small portion of it.

Then you get the Arabs jumping on the "aaaaaaah Western bias!!!" bandwagon because they're being confronted mainly for such physical human rights abuses in the Middle East, which they can't see in China because it's more about intellectual/psychological ones, thus they automatically assume "Western hypocrisy! Western lies!" instead of, you know, looking up the definition of 'human rights' and exercising some abstract thinking.

 

[AlleyCat]

i dont know what you mean by psychological, but if you mean the fact that they are meant to denounce their beliefs, that composes only a small part of the abuse against them, many are tortured to within an inch of their life.

EDIT: i'm tired, and pretty sure the above made no sense.

night y'all

 

[Slidey]

Um...

I was more talking about freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of movement, and right to democratic regulation/policy (i.e. freedom from corruption, freedom from undemocratic government censorship, etc).

As it stands, China has no transparent or consistent legal system, which, as a start, it fully acknowledges.

Chinese nationalists are all about "but it's what the people want!" yeah OK, I'm cool with that. Please hold an unbiased democratic election to verify, with recurrence every 4 or so years in case of societal change.

 

[AlleyCat]

Um...

I was more talking about freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of movement, and right to democratic regulation/policy (i.e. freedom from corruption, freedom from undemocratic government censorship, etc).

As it stands, China has no transparent or consistent legal system, which, as a start, it fully acknowledges.

Chinese nationalists are all about "but it's what the people want!" yeah OK, I'm cool with that. Please hold an unbiased democratic election to verify, with recurrence every 4 or so years in case of societal change.

i 100% agree.

 

[sam04u]

the thing that puzzles me is that whilst most countries have some degree of shame for actions their government or past leaders have done, eg the treatment of australian, canadian and american indigenous people, slavery in the US, the holocaust and many many other instances, the vast majority of chinese people staunchly defend the right of their governments, past and present, to murder, torture, sterilise and harvest the organs of people who they wish to silence.

i dont understand why. i mean, the american government at present has committed many injustices, but citizens question motives, research patterns of behavior and eventually change their govt if required.

Iraq War, Afghanistan War, Quantanamo Bay?
You seriously come off as a dim-witted bitch. You want to talk about human rights abuses in China, but you really have no leg to stand on when compared to the rest of the political spectrum.

The United States of America, runs and promotes brutal tyranny and dictatorships throughout the word, including it's own country. However idiots like you just don't see this. You want to pretend we give a damn, or are ashamed about what we've done to the Aboriginal people? Are you delusional?

Did you see how critical most of the right of Australia was, just because Rudd promised to apologise to the Aboriginals, giving them back their dignity? You know why we couldn't bring ourselves to apologise for their past? Because we didn't want to open the doors to reperations. That's right, we're too busy clenching onto our pockets to be decent fucking human beings.

And you want to criticise China? Our country has demoralised, and ghettoised the Aboriginal community. Instead of creating jobs, or community centres for the Aboriginal communities to progress, we'd rather criticise them, call them backwards, and find excuses to slander them.

Perhaps in your little pink and star speckled "happy Australia" Aboriginals are treated with dignity and respect. That's a fucking load of shit. You probably don't even know any Aboriginals.

And don't get me started on the United States. What they've done to the African American communities is a real human rights abuse. They send them off to wars, ill-clad, without prospects for a better life on return, without proper psychological care, without proper military equipment. Remember when Hurricane Katrina hit? I don't think it got the same response that the eathquakes in the Sichuan Province of China got. No, infact why should they properly respond? That was a black area, as if they give a shit.

Who's next?

How about America's allies? I could do this all day, and you would still be on the starting block. China is perhaps one of the greatest countries in the modern world. Maybe you just don't like the Chinese. I wonder if you prefered China when it was in poverty, when they were colonised by the White man. The White man who can do know wrong, who runs the world democratically and is ashamed for killing the sand niggers. Oh wait, what fucking drugs are you on? :angry:

Ignorant wench.

 

[sam04u]

i dont know what you mean by psychological, but if you mean the fact that they are meant to denounce their beliefs, that composes only a small part of the abuse against them, many are tortured to within an inch of their life.

EDIT: i'm tired, and pretty sure the above made no sense.

night y'all

I'd rather be tortured within an inch of my life for a reason, rather than what they do in Quantanamo Bay. Torture people within an inch of their lives for not confessing, sometimes to crimes they didn't commit. But I wont wait for you to criticise that, the Americans are ashamed of what they're doing. (sarcasm)

You're right on one thing though. Nothing you've said in your entire existence makes sense. Please disintegrate, and do the world a favour.

 

[ari89]

Iraq War, Afghanistan War, Quantanamo Bay?
You seriously come off as a dim-witted bitch. You want to talk about human rights abuses in China, but you really have no leg to stand on when compared to the rest of the political spectrum.

Condemning both is not hypocritical. Why on Earth are you calling her a dimwitted bitch?

Go watch your left winged Michael Moore and see his claims of the health system at Guantanamo Bay far out performing those of the Western World.

And since it was never relevant to the topic I am really not in the mood for you to fallaciously introduce the very contentious human rights issues of GITMO, anti-terror legislation, the balance of safety and individual rights etc.

The United States of America, runs and promotes brutal tyranny and dictatorships throughout the word, including it's own country. However idiots like you just don't see this. You want to pretend we give a damn, or are ashamed about what we've done to the Aboriginal people? Are you delusional?

Did you miss the part where she said that, "the american government at present has committed many injustices, but citizens question motives, research patterns of behavior and eventually change their govt if required.". I am really confused. Unless this is some preprepared post you have been wanting to get off your chest for other reasons? I really don't see the relevance of such an unfounded attack.

Did you see how critical most of the right of Australia was, just because Rudd promised to apologise to the Aboriginals, giving them back their dignity? You know why we couldn't bring ourselves to apologise for their past? Because we didn't want to open the doors to reperations. That's right, we're too busy clenching onto our pockets to be decent fucking human beings.

Pardon? Aboriginals had no dignity until a symbolic apology by the Federal Government?
What a disgraceful point of view.

Should I blame it on ignorance or intentional deception regarding the omission of any reference to the fact that the policies in question were a result of State Government decisions or would this have spoilt your 'hip pocket' claim? If you truly think people objected from a purely monetary point of view you are missing out on a far bigger picture. Again, not interested in going into details in this thread but there are various threads around the place outlining non-monetary reasons against the apology.

And you want to criticise China? Our country has demoralised, and ghettoised the Aboriginal community. Instead of creating jobs, or community centres for the Aboriginal communities to progress, we'd rather criticise them, call them backwards, and find excuses to slander them.

Do you not see the holes in this point?

Why can't someone also criticise China's horrible human rights violations? Because my dad beats up my mum does that mean I can't also condemn spousal abuse in general or in other contexts?

Anyway, such a claim is a fallacious comparison and red herring.
I do not see how you justify this exclusivity.

Perhaps in your little pink and star speckled "happy Australia" Aboriginals are treated with dignity and respect. That's a fucking load of shit. You probably don't even know any Aboriginals.

I treat the Aboriginals I know and have known, like any other human, with dignity and respect. And I know I am definitely not unique in the Australian community for holding such a view. What time have you spent in the Aboriginal community that gives you such superior insight, Sam?

I have lived in two remote Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory and contrary to the exaggerated claims of the media the situation is very different. Go find this out yourself. Go serve others and show the respect that you hypocritically lecture from your soap box about.

And don't get me started on the United States. What they've done to the African American communities is a real human rights abuse. They send them off to wars, ill-clad, without prospects for a better life on return, without proper psychological care, without proper military equipment. Remember when Hurricane Katrina hit? I don't think it got the same response that the eathquakes in the Sichuan Province of China got. No, infact why should they properly respond? That was a black area, as if they give a shit.

Don't get you started on a non-issue? If you weren't interested in getting started you wouldn't have introduced a crap load of straw men, red herrings and other bullshit to distract from the points of discussion. What is with the fusing of multiple issues. Jumping from wars to Katrina. It seems like you are now grasping at straws and begging the question.

On a side note, I am unaware of the claims that US soldiers are deployed without proper equipment?

How about America's allies? I could do this all day, and you would still be on the starting block. China is perhaps one of the greatest countries in the modern world. Maybe you just don't like the Chinese. I wonder if you prefered China when it was in poverty, when they were colonised by the White man. The White man who can do know wrong, who runs the world democratically and is ashamed for killing the sand niggers. Oh wait, what fucking drugs are you on?

Yes, but no matter how long you go on they will continue to be immaterial.

Do you really have to anathematise Alley by fitting a crap load of unfounded and offensive traits to her name? What are you achieving here? I do not know Alley's personal views but I am yet to see any evidence suggesting the skewed perspective you attribute to her to be ever alluded to.

When I was in China just after 9/11 I really had my doubts about the humanity of the Chinese people. They did not sympathise with the event but many seemed to rejoice. Like you, they shared a mostly irrational hate of America to the extent of rejoicing at the death of thousands of civilians. (Contrast this to the aid the US and Australia provides to countries in times of humanitarian need). But who am I to talk. I actually have personal experience which is obviously dwarfed by your conjecture and anecdotal evidence.

The Chinese people are limited in so many facets of their lives including the high regulation of personal freedoms such as religion and expression. Please, explain how disallowing personal freedoms, rewarding ignorance and belittling the value of individual human life makes China one of the greatest countries of the modern world?

Ps. It is 5am so don't be too harsh on any language errors

 

[sam04u]

Condemning both is not hypocritical. Why on Earth are you calling her a dimwitted bitch?

Because she actually believes that America is apologising for what happened in Iraq. She doesn't see that many now want a war with Iran, and that they want to continue the war against Afghanistan. She doesn't see that Bush is not only not ashamed of the Iraq war, but rather he's proud of it. "Eh heh, we brought democrahsee to the AYE-RACK"

And since it was never relevant to the topic I am really not in the mood for you to fallaciously introduce the very contentious human rights issues of GITMO, anti-terror legislation, the balance of safety and individual rights etc.

There's nothing contentious about it. The number of human rights abuses by the United States of America in their own country, and abroad, is sickening.

Did you miss the part where she said that, "the american government at present has committed many injustices, but citizens question motives, research patterns of behavior and eventually change their govt if required.". I am really confused. Unless this is some preprepared post you have been wanting to get off your chest for other reasons? I really don't see the relevance of such an unfounded attack.

They didn't change their government in 2004, infact they voted in the same fuckwit. Again, I'm not opposing the people of the United States, but rather the country in general. The difference is however, if we want to follow her train of thought, the people of the US are more culpable for their countries human rights abuses. Mainly because they have such great human rights and a great democracy.

Pardon? Aboriginals had no dignity until a symbolic apology by the Federal Government?
What a disgraceful point of view.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to that Australia had not recognised any wrong-doing, in their mistreatment of the Aboriginals.

Why can't someone also criticise China's horrible human rights violations? Because my dad beats up my mum does that mean I can't also condemn spousal abuse in general or in other contexts?

No, you're right on that. But if you say "I beat up my wife, but I feel bad about it when I'm done, so that makes it okay", then you're a contradictory, imbecile.

Also, the last time I checked the people of China are happy.

I treat the Aboriginals I know and have known, like any other human, with dignity and respect. And I know I am definitely not unique in the Australian community for holding such a view. What time have you spent in the Aboriginal community that gives you such superior insight, Sam?

I've known and befriended many Aboriginals, and seen the way many regard them. I remember even in primary school, a teacher was more concerned with occupying an Aboriginal student's attention, than educating him. Almost as if he had some sort of autism, or didn't have a need a proper education. Ofcourse I was too young to know how bad that was at the time, but now upon reflection I see how terrible it was.

This attitude towards Aboriginals is widespread throughout this country of ours. Many times people consider them sub-human, or born defficient in some sense, not as capable or intelligent as any other human beings. It's disgusting. Infact, I'm pretty sure I recall a member of our forums, JaredR? Complaining about the Aboriginals in his community. Aboriginal people are not treated as equals in this country. Irrespective of whether there are provisions in the law, irrespective of if there are special grants to help combat the inherent discrimination. We can deny it all we like, but when the 2000 Olympics rolled in, we swept our Aboriginal problems under the carpet, and not so much as a peep was heard.

I have lived in two remote Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory and contrary to the exaggerated claims of the media the situation is very different. Go find this out yourself. Go serve others and show the respect that you hypocritically lecture from your soap box about.

I do. I practice what I preach.

Don't get you started on a non-issue?

It is an issue. Apologising for the actions of the United States, and our own country, whilst criticising the PRC is highly hypocritical. The people of China are happy, and they will do as they wish in their sovereign territory. Unlike our country and others, they aren't rolling into other countries and laying waste to their people and their land.

On a side note, I am unaware of the claims that US soldiers are deployed without proper equipment?

Apparently, there is a method of detection, and proper armoured vehicles to protect against the IED's, but they weren't deployed.

Do you really have to anathematise Alley by fitting a crap load of unfounded and offensive traits to her name? What are you achieving here? I do not know Alley's personal views but I am yet to see any evidence suggesting the skewed perspective you attribute to her to be ever alluded to.

Go have a sook Ari. I do really have to anathematise Alley, for such an ignorant post.

When I was in China just after 9/11 I really had my doubts about the humanity of the Chinese people. They did not sympathise with the event but many seemed to rejoice. Like you, they shared a mostly irrational hate of America to the extent of rejoicing at the death of thousands of civilians. (Contrast this to the aid the US and Australia provides to countries in times of humanitarian need). But who am I to talk. I actually have personal experience which is obviously dwarfed by your conjecture and anecdotal evidence.

I rejoiced? You're retarded Ari. When have I ever rejoiced for 9/11? It's people like you that are using 9/11 to justify killing thousands upon thousands of new innocents, instead of reconciling. It's people like you that are going to result in endless deaths of innocent people, because you just wont accept what is the truth, what is real. I dwarf you in every way Ari. (Intellectually, Physically, Sexually, Emotionally) as soon as you accept that Ari, we might just get along a little better.

The Chinese people are limited in so many facets of their lives including the high regulation of personal freedoms such as religion and expression. Please, explain how disallowing personal freedoms, rewarding ignorance and belittling the value of individual human life makes China one of the greatest countries of the modern world?

And you accuse me of conjecture. Don't make me laugh Ari-boy.
Lies, lies, and lies.

 

[AlleyCat]

Iraq War, Afghanistan War, Quantanamo Bay?
You seriously come off as a dim-witted bitch. You want to talk about human rights abuses in China, but you really have no leg to stand on when compared to the rest of the political spectrum.

cant we just talk about this topic without bringing every other contentious one into debate in the thread as well. i'd understand you calling me one sided if this thread was called "Oooh is china or america naughtier" but this is about the olympics and thus chinas human rights abuses are very very relevant.

The United States of America, runs and promotes brutal tyranny and dictatorships throughout the word, including it's own country. However idiots like you just don't see this. You want to pretend we give a damn, or are ashamed about what we've done to the Aboriginal people? Are you delusional?

when i said my original post, i said that most countries have a degree of 'healthy' shame when it comes to their past actions. i didnt say they have mourned every issue, but there is debate, and people know, governments apologise, and wronged people can start to heal. china needs to do this.

Did you see how critical most of the right of Australia was, just because Rudd promised to apologise to the Aboriginals, giving them back their dignity? You know why we couldn't bring ourselves to apologise for their past? Because we didn't want to open the doors to reperations. That's right, we're too busy clenching onto our pockets to be decent fucking human beings.

there are also a lot of people who respected the long overdue apology.

And you want to criticise China? Our country has demoralised, and ghettoised the Aboriginal community. Instead of creating jobs, or community centres for the Aboriginal communities to progress, we'd rather criticise them, call them backwards, and find excuses to slander them.

yes, i want to criticise china. they abuse human rights and not only get away with it, but are also rewarded for it on the global stage. that is at least relevant to the topic, even if you dont agree with it.

Perhaps in your little pink and star speckled "happy Australia" Aboriginals are treated with dignity and respect. That's a fucking load of shit. You probably don't even know any Aboriginals.

you incorrectly speculate on both what my view of australia is and also who i know.

And don't get me started on the United States. What they've done to the African American communities is a real human rights abuse. They send them off to wars, ill-clad, without prospects for a better life on return, without proper psychological care, without proper military equipment. Remember when Hurricane Katrina hit? I don't think it got the same response that the eathquakes in the Sichuan Province of China got. No, infact why should they properly respond? That was a black area, as if they give a shit.

but, you see, there is a reason why you know these things occur. they are in the news. they are publicised, debated, criticised.

when parents in sichuan were upset about shoddy buildings killing their children, what did they get? jackie chan singing a hastily composed propaganda song about the event to hush public outcry.

how can you call what the american government do to the blacks "real human rights abuse" as opposed to what the chinese government do to the tibetans/falun gong?

cant they both be human rights abuses? why are you excusing one type because there is also the other.

Who's next?

How about America's allies? I could do this all day, and you would still be on the starting block. China is perhaps one of the greatest countries in the modern world. Maybe you just don't like the Chinese. I wonder if you prefered China when it was in poverty, when they were colonised by the White man. The White man who can do know wrong, who runs the world democratically and is ashamed for killing the sand niggers. Oh wait, what fucking drugs are you on? :angry:

Ignorant wench.

i actually think chinese people are generally good natured and sweet. i was in china a few weeks ago and met helpful, kind people. i love chinese people. chinese people didnt commit these crimes, the government did.

i also love the tibetans, of whom i have met many. they are generally kind and gentle, with a lovely language and culture. i dont want to see them persecuted.