The Abortion Debate (continued) (2 Viewers)

[katie tully]

im speaking from my own experiences, i would never be able to lt my own offspring grow up without knowing who they are.

what about if a 16 year old gets pregnant, they are a top student and have a LOT of hope in the HSC, should they adopt out and effectively sacrafice their future or abort?

Sure, she should have just as much a right as a 35 year old to have an abortion. It's a shit example though, and cliched. It's probably been done to death in this thread.

 

[*o*]

Sure, she should have just as much a right as a 35 year old to have an abortion. It's a shit example though, and cliched. It's probably been done to death in this thread.

true, but that is the time i consider abortion most acceptable. is it ethical to put yourself above your progeny?

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Yes. Inconvenience is grounds for terminating a fetus.

Why?

It stops very clearly once the baby is born.

Why?

Don't try and pull some slippery slop fallacy that abortion will lead to willy nilly executions.[/QUOTE]

I don't. What I do say is that pulling an arbitrary point out of ones ass is not sufficient.

This IS the way
You ARE wrong

 

[katie tully]

true, but that is the time i consider abortion most acceptable. is it ethical to put yourself above your progeny?

I don't get your argument.

Why is a 16 year old aborting because it'll interfere with their education the most acceptable reason to abort?

I can think of many more that are far better examples for the pro chocie argument.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

oh but it's inconvinient for them...

edit: please do not use pro choice. it is a buzz word. it's silly.

 

[katie tully]

oh but it's inconvinient for them...

edit: please do not use pro choice. it is a buzz word. it's silly.

almost as ridiculous as prolife! lolz!*&^*#(

 

[*o*]

I don't get your argument.

Why is a 16 year old aborting because it'll interfere with their education the most acceptable reason to abort?

I can think of many more that are far better examples for the pro chocie argument.

its a time where you lack independence and potential, if a pregnancy was to be kept it would be much more challenging than in later life.

 

[katie tully]

its a time where you lack independence and potential, if a pregnancy was to be kept it would be much more challenging than in later life.

It's a time when really, if you can't appreciate or understand the implications of having sex, you shouldn't be having sex.

I'm not arguing against you, I don't see why a 16 year old can't have an abortion, and it's a valid reason. But to me, there are situations that are far more challenging and deserving of the right to choose, and 16 year olds getting pregnant is not at the forefront of those situations.

 

[Iron]

At its core, this is a moral crisis - the inevitable result of defining the world through your own selfish interests. We have undervalued the lives of others and thereby life itself. The institutions of church, community and family lie in ruins. The individual is thus saddled with unreasonable responsibility in such matters. Culture has been redefined to only value youth, personal experiences, and profit.

I'm sympathetic to the pro-life campaign, but in pragmatic terms you just cant mandate that women bear a pregnancy if they really, really dont want to. A corrupt and exploitative culture lured her into the mess with the scientific promise of absolute pleasure and nothing else; now it tells her that the only way she can return comes at a horrific cost to the sanctity of life and her own soul. Her support is tied and muffled in a dark corner, while the great Satan commands her to sign on the dotted line with the blood of the innocent. What is she to do?

The larger aim of pro lifers should be to liberate the imprisoned institutions and arm them with weapons to slay their demonic corporate captors. We must flick on the light of good to the darkness of evil, and see how the cockroaches will scatter my friends! Wake up men of the West! Wake up to the greed! Wake up to the dragon in the room! Wake up! WAKE UP! If we let Christ into our lives, we lose nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing of what makes life free, beautiful and great. No! Only in this friendship do we experience beauty and liberation. WAKE UP. When we give ourselves to Him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, wake up my friends, open, open wide the doors to Christ – and you will find true life. True LIFE.
true life

 

[katie tully]

Oh, ok then.

I'm glad that's settled.

 

[Iron]

It is not settled! It is not even the beginning of the settling! But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning...

For what it's worth, I think that the position taken in Roe v Wade does get the balance right in the current climate. It's far from the ideal, but it's foolish to think that you can get very far in this without fundamental changes to cultural values. This takes time and blood, sweat, tears
But there is a silent holocaust going on as we speak and our compliance with the system which mandates it will be judged

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

Choose Life?

 

[Empyrean444]

Oh wow. Many flaws here. Firstly, how do you know animals do not develop sapience? Yes, many animals are "unconscious", but many are conscious, and we still kill them. Point?



Ah, so it's back to the old "HUMANS R SPESHUL" chestnut again. I don't CARE that a human foetus has the potential to become a sapient individual; it isn't when it's aborted, and it will never have a say in the matter. To say that it's more likely than an animal to become sapient is speciesist and an intellectual fallacy.



I'd challenge that. We put down old and infirm animals for the mercy of it; why not humans? (Let's not go into voluntary euthanasia here, on second thought).

Have you ever seen a fully matured animal with behaviours/acts/responses that indicate sapience? So far as we know, animals don't, but we do definitely know that foetuses will. It is not an intellectual fallacy, as one is a definite fact and one is pure speculation or possibility.

Speciesist? You are joking. What about the food chain? Of course humans are more important than other animals. That's not some form of discrimination, that is nature.

Also by nature we are meant to protect our selves and our young, which is why we should not allow abortion.

 

[advanced sam]

i dont like the idea of abortion and i am pretty sure im against it, but until your in that situation, whatever it may be, you will never really how you feel and what you have to do. and saying that i dont know if you can really judge someone for it.

 

[Kwayera]

Have you ever seen a fully matured animal with behaviours/acts/responses that indicate sapience? So far as we know, animals don't, but we do definitely know that foetuses will. It is not an intellectual fallacy, as one is a definite fact and one is pure speculation or possibility.

Hmm. Yes, our closest relatives, chimpanzees (both the common species and the bonobo) and certain cetaceans (that we have been able to examine for such, namely delphinids), elephants..

Speciesist? You are joking. What about the food chain? Of course humans are more important than other animals. That's not some form of discrimination, that is nature.

If we're going by the food chain, bacteria rule.

Also by nature we are meant to protect our selves and our young, which is why we should not allow abortion.

I've shown repeatedly that this is not necessarily the case. We're more related to ourselves and our siblings than to our own offspring, and we have a higher Darwinian reproductive value than our infants (until they become adults themselves and breed), so in "nature", if it comes between the mother surviving and her infant/juvenile offspring surviving, the mother always wins.

Obviously in highly intelligent animals this is often not the case, which just goes to show that "nature" can't dictate everything.

 

[katie tully]

Hey Cat, is it also true that highly evolved mammals and what not also kill their offspring when they're born with deformities?

 

[Calculators]

Hey Cat, is it also true that highly evolved mammals and what not also kill their offspring when they're born with deformities?

I once had a cat who ripped its babies heads off straight after they were born. We never got to see the litter alive, so I don't know if they were deformed. I was so fucking mad when that happened. I felt like kicking my cat in the face, but, I didn't. Instead, we got rid of it.

 

[katie tully]

Some feral kittehs got into mum and dad's bird cage and ate their pet gullah the other day. It was the best bird ever, we'd rescued it when it was a baby and found out 5 years later it was a she not a he (it laid eggs) and it talked and danced.

And then got eaten.

So, this weekend I'm a kitteh hunting

 

[Calculators]

Some feral kittehs got into mum and dad's bird cage and ate their pet gullah the other day. It was the best bird ever, we'd rescued it when it was a baby and found out 5 years later it was a she not a he (it laid eggs) and it talked and danced.

And then got eaten.

So, this weekend I'm a kitteh hunting

That's pretty sad. I love birds. Especially Galahs and Cockatoos.

God I miss my cockatoo. It was the most affectionate bird. It used to be a dickhead to everyone but me. I think it knew that if was a dickhead to me, I wouldn't feed it.

 

[Kwayera]

Hey Cat, is it also true that highly evolved mammals and what not also kill their offspring when they're born with deformities?

Actually, I'm not sure. Most animals will abandon deformed offspring within days of them being born, but they generally won't outright kill them, AFAIK.

I once had a cat who ripped its babies heads off straight after they were born. We never got to see the litter alive, so I don't know if they were deformed. I was so fucking mad when that happened. I felt like kicking my cat in the face, but, I didn't. Instead, we got rid of it.

Well what do you expect? Your cat was probably removed from her mother too young (~8 weeks, I suspect), never had the proper socialisation, and you had the stupidity to allow her to breed when she probably had no idea how to care for a litter.

FUCKING SPAY YOUR CATS, PEOPLE. THERE ARE ENOUGH KITTENS OUT THERE WITHOUT IDIOTS BREEDING MORE.