The Abortion Debate (continued) (2 Viewers)

[The Brucemaster]

For the record:

Insulting all women does little more than make you look like an asshole chauvinist with no respect for people. It also makes me not take you seriously at all and your statements are generalisations with no merit to them.

Quoted for truth...

 

[*Ninny-mole*]

I feel very strongly regarding human rights, but abortion is a very cloudy subject. The question when it comes to the abortion legislation is when exactly does the foetus become human? I am not sure what I believe about this.
However, I have a strong personal belief regarding the morality behind abortion. I am PRO-CHOICE, but at the same time, believe that abortion is not something to be taken lightly, and the choice whether to have a baby or not should be thought about VERY carefully. I also thinK that "bshoc" is an arrogant ass. Minka, you are totally right...

For the record:
Insulting all women does little more than make you look like an asshole chauvinist with no respect for people. It also makes me not take you seriously at all and your statements are generalisations with no merit to them.

 

[bshoc]

A higher mind? So what simply because you're situated at a higher altitude that means you're superior to me? Learn to speak good, idiot...

Non-baby-killing logic? Please I would be interested in your responses to the following questions:

1) How do you define life and what reasoning/evidence is this definition based on?

2) What is your definition of murder and again, what is the reasoning/evidence for such a definition?

3) Rather than just quoting Wikipedia verbatim, please explain the link between Arrow's Impossibility Theorem and the issue of abortion legislation.

Lord, dont you know how to use the back button?

The answers to those questions and many more have already been made by me throughout this whole thread, as well as the last thread (which is now locked). Go back and read, I have no intention on typing the same things over and over again.

 

[The Brucemaster]

Lord, dont you know how to use the back button?

The answers to those questions and many more have already been made by me throughout this whole thread, as well as the last thread (which is now locked). Go back and read, I have no intention on typing the same things over and over again.

Well having done so I find the following:

[FONT=&quot]Human is being that has the genetic properties of a human, alive is growth, development, the cycle of resources (ie. oxygen, iron).

Well, according to that definition you can be human but not alive, seeing as a blastocyte does not 'cycle resources'. Thus for at least the first approximately 4 days of pregnancy a 'baby' is human but not alive.

Furthermore, sperm and eggs contain chromosomes that contain the genes for human life, thus by your definition they are also human and hence (nearly) every single person over the age of 16 is a murderer.

Oh, but here is a comment you made about sperm and eggs just for the purposes of impartiality:

[/FONT]No sperm and eggs are not people, once they combine, thats a person because its cells are no longer identical to either the mother or the father.

Doesn't really make sense to me. Here you're saying that its not enough for something to just have the genetic make-up of a human, you're saying that that genetic make-up has to be dissimilar to the organism that the genetic material originated from.



In regards to a definition of murder all i found was this:

Not quite, it depends on whose law you abide by, and I have no intrest in obiding laws written by feminist murderers

So you're views on a definition of murder, insofar as they have been expressed, consist of merely dismissing a generally accepted defintion based on its perceived authorship.


Finally, we come to Arrow's Impossibility Theorem and its relevance as stated by you:

Look I would reply but in order to prove that you are right and I am wrong (as opposed to the current state of matters) you'll have to disprove both Arrows Impossibility Theorem and the Fallacy of Composition - until then your status as owned stands.

Oh yeah, the relevance is clear now...

 

[Serius]

Why is this thread still going?

as far as i can tell every1 who isnt a religious nut is in agreeance

1) having an abortion is a shame and is in no way a desirable thing
2) in certain circumstances it is desirable, and even necessary[ what cirumstances we can argue about...medical reasons, rape, incest are reaons everyone agrees with, frivolous changes of mind, accidents and the lifestyle copout there is some arguement about]

3) There are far too many abortions occuring in Australia for reasons most people agree are not acceptable such as complete ignorance of contraception

Then theres me who is supporting the choice of abortion as such, but also calling for some mens rights.

Maybe the cost of abortion needs to go up so its taken seriously and only used when necessary. Maybe education programs need to form teaching people about contraception and how having sex is a responsability. Some sort of scare advertisement like the no smoking ones with a woman getting an abortion and then severe complications making it so that the abortion is successful, but he can no longer have children.

I know this is a heated issue, and most of it stems from the 'right' to have an abortion. When my grandma was a nurse abortions were illegal, but heaps of women still tried to abort their babies and ended up dieing. I could see the same thing happening if they were outlawed again. So then the right these advocates talk about isnt really the right to an abortion, but the right to a government funded, safe, and private abortion with minimum fuss and minimum pain. Certainly if a woman is going to abort her baby no matter what [and risks of death be damned] i would prefer it done in a safe enviroment. But i am sure if abortions were seen as a bigger decision with severe consequences[ like being blacklisted from adoption clinics or something] then every except the diehard backyard abortion woman would go through with the pregnancy.

 

[Xayma]

Maybe the cost of abortion needs to go up so its taken seriously and only used when necessary. Maybe education programs need to form teaching people about contraception and how having sex is a responsability. Some sort of scare advertisement like the no smoking ones with a woman getting an abortion and then severe complications making it so that the abortion is successful, but he can no longer have children.

Abortions being raised in price might convince those who are poor to keep the child (because it can take time to get the money), who are also those least able to afford a child. It will hardly stop those doing it for lifestyle reasons if they have money.

Scare campaigns aren't really appropriate, medical complications are also likely in birth, should we have scare campaigns about having children? Also there is no real societal bonus to having people stop abortions, as opposed to say, smoking campaigns which poison others. (Also, just because I noticied the typo, how would an abortion make a male less likely to have children?)

But i am sure if abortions were seen as a bigger decision with severe consequences[ like being blacklisted from adoption clinics or something] then every except the diehard backyard abortion woman would go through with the pregnancy.

That is stupid. They might not view it as ethical to bring a new child into the world if they view it as overpopulated already, or, like most domestic adoptions, they know the child already and are related to them. Unless you plan on sharing this information all over the world, creating a database of who had abortions is stupid, especially since peoples beliefs change over long periods of times (one might have had an abortion when they were 20 and wish to adopt when they are 35).

 

[Serius]

Yeah i guess you are right, those ideas wouldnt really work. I guess the only idea that might work is more education programs on contraception.

 

[bshoc]

selective quotes from me ... blah blah blah

keep trying, you may want to visit the locked abortion thread as well

 

[bshoc]

*fixt*
Appealing to emotion does nothing for your argument, and just proves how weak your argumentative stance is.

Quite clearly it's not purposeless, it serves a need, both a social and a medical one.

You do realise the majority of terminations are performed on creatures that cannot make it to full term because of severe deformities, of if they did make it to full term, would not survive labour and would quite possibly kill the birthing parent.

How is this 'slaughter'?

You're essentially asking whats the difference between a human baby and a fully grown bovine? Not only this but you're suggesting that most abortions are performed because of deformities? 60000 deformities a year? Most abortions are convenience abortions.

There are absolutely no words to describe your kind of stupidity. Stick to your che T-shirts and let people with brains form opinions.

 

[bshoc]

Your logic.

We can kill cows for a purpose.

We can't kill foetuses for a purpose.

GOOD ONE!

Yes bacuase cows = food (not for me personally though), do you eat fetuses? What possible purpose is there to abortion (excl. rape and the occasional miscarraige) than some dumb teeage twit killing off a baby to continue her pathetic shallow existance at the expence of a human being that could be worth alot more than her? Abortion isnt contraception, its what happens when a woman is too stupid to use it.

Sorry, Dan, I had to say it, even though you just did.

You know why? Becuase you're all brainwashed with the same bullshit anyway.

 

[*Minka*]

There is a purpose for abortion.

Getting unwanted pregnancies removed from a woman's body that does not wish for it to be there.

Simple. Comprehend?

 

[ur_inner_child]

Yes bacuase cows = food (not for me personally though), do you eat fetuses? What possible purpose is there to abortion (excl. rape and the occasional miscarraige) than some dumb teeage twit killing off a baby to continue her pathetic shallow existance at the expence of a human being that could be worth alot more than her? Abortion isnt contraception, its what happens when a woman is too stupid to use it.



You know why? Becuase you're all brainwashed with the same bullshit anyway.

Why is it post after post you have to refer to women that way.

You make it sound like you think only women are for abortion, or that all men joy in the idea of having babies.

 

[Generator]

We can't post images?

Not in this subforum, no.

 

[bshoc]

There is a purpose for abortion.

Getting unwanted pregnancies removed from a woman's body that does not wish for it to be there.

Simple. Comprehend?

Nope, oh dont get me wrong I know what you're saying, its just that I dont think that a woman stupid enough to "accidently" fall pregnant in the first place really knows what shes doing, certainly in terms of abortion. Seeing as how abortion is likely to be re-illigalized in the future due to the right leaning shift in politics, and how most people supporting abortion arent smart enough to be in any decisional government authority, you'll have to forgive people who correctly separate abortion and womens rights.

 

[bshoc]

Hahahahaha, I'm a fuckwit. You have just said that there is a purpose to abortion but you're still arguing.

Please, stop.

Good one!

Mommy never teach you what "excluding" means?

 

[*Minka*]

Why is it post after post you have to refer to women that way.

You make it sound like you think only women are for abortion, or that all men joy in the idea of having babies.

Indeed.

And lets not forget that the reason many women have abortions is because their male partners refuse to support them.

 

[Generator]

Nope, oh dont get me wrong I know what you're saying, its just that I dont think that a woman stupid enough to "accidently" fall pregnant in the first place really knows what shes doing, certainly in terms of abortion. Seeing as how abortion is likely to be re-illigalized in the future due to the right leaning shift in politics, and how most people supporting abortion arent smart enough to be in any decisional government authority, you'll have to forgive people who correctly separate abortion and womens rights.

Leaving aside the baseless asserion regarding the intelligence of most who support abortion, why is that the issue of abortion is separate to that of women's rights, bshoc?

 

[bshoc]

Mate, there's no way abortion is going to be illegalised.

They'll never be illegalised :rofl: but they'll sure be illigalized, not entirely ofcourse, but the the 70's illigaized standards.

 

[bshoc]

Leaving aside the baseless asserion regarding the intelligence of most who support abortion, why is that the issue of abortion is separate to that of women's rights, bshoc?

Because abortion is first and foremost a violation of the most basic rights of any indavidual, the right to life.

 

[*Minka*]

OH BUT THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE ALL WOMEN IS EVIL. THEY IS WANT MURDER KIDS!

BAD!

ALL MEN LOVE THE BAYYYBEEEEZZZZZ AND I AM EN EVILLLEEE WOMAN!!