Teacher Pay Increases (2 Viewers)

[400miles]

Originally posted by Asquithian
compared to other people out there...im sorry to say that other professions work much much harder than teachers...im sure your parents deserve 100 000 a year

I would also like to point out that shock horror most other professional jobs require 'homework' its not like a lawyer goes home at 5pm and stops working...i would say that most professional jobs require just as much homework as teaching and probably more and probably at a higher level.

The very fact that you think teachers work REALLY hard only shows how little you know about other professions...I once thought teachers deserved more money...then i got to uni and realised how easy teaching is in relation to other professions...downright cruisey...

An areas that does a deserve pay increase is the area of nursing...

longer hours shittier conditions and more stress than a teacher...less money...?????????

There was a good letter in the SMH last week about this ...a professor wrote in asking why his hard working staff of cancer researchers who all have PHDs who DO NOT get 12 weeks a year and who work 9 till very late do not get paid within cooee! of teachers...


yes teachers are valuable however their professional skill and the extent and level at which they have to apply their professional skill should be kept in perspective when compared to

doctors
nurses
Lawyers
researchers
Business people


some of my teachers were great and may well deserve a pay rise...

All those teachers who got out their and striked were greedy...its not like you become a teacher for the money...they should all get back in the classroom and start teaching so people like me respect them more and support them when they want a pay rise...

There are plenty of bludger teachers who wanked their way through teaching degrees and now expect to earn more than people who

have studied longer than they have

work longer hours

have less holidays

more stressful work

and have just as much after hours work at a higher level than they have

teachers stop being greedy.

granted... there ARE other jobs which put in equal the amount of work and 'homework' that teachers do... but a lot of the ones you mentioned - especially bloody lawyers - get paid so much more than teachers for it...

"All those teachers who got out their and striked were greedy...its not like you become a teacher for the money...they should all get back in the classroom and start teaching so people like me respect them more and support them when they want a pay rise..."

no you don't become a teacher for the money... but you've got to be able to live on what you rightfully earn.. my mum worked with a man who loved teaching... he had to quit teaching and go into real estate because he couldn't support his family with the money from teaching...

"The very fact that you think teachers work REALLY hard only shows how little you know about other professions..."
The very fact that you undermine how hard teachers really do work shows how little you know about their profession

Nursing does deserve more pay... and wait... THEY GOT IT... they got it through striking

I'm not saying other jobs don't deserve more pay or don't deserve the pay they get... I'm saying teachers deserve more.

"There are plenty of bludger teachers who wanked their way through teaching degrees and now expect to earn more than people who

have studied longer than they have

work longer hours

have less holidays

more stressful work "

There are plenty MORE teachers who have WORKED their way through teaching degrees and do a hell of a lot of work... and who DESERVE more pay.

I don't think you can comment on the stress involved in teaching or how hard teachers work because I don't understand how you'd know?

 

[iambored]

Originally posted by Asquithian
they get 12 weeks holidays a year and do not work 9 to 5...i dont give me crap about marking...i dont think its too stressfull marking yr9 trig papers ...probably do it in front of the TV...

Originally posted by hatty
no its not stressful marking yr9 trig papers.
but their not getting paid for it.

what if i came over ur house with some yr9 trig papers and asked u 2 mark it for free? i doubt u would.

im not 2 sure... but what if yr 9 wasnt the only level in school?
and trig papers werent the only tihng being marked?

correct me if im wrong Asquithian, but i believe there are more subjects and year levels out tere.

:uhhuh:

alright, you mentioned marking year 9 trig papers. what about writing reports, preparing lessons, making the tests up, for senior teachers - answering calls at home, getting more questions, staying after school for more help. teahers that do debating, sports carnivals, organise school musicals. it's all unpaid

 

[iambored]

Originally posted by ihatecensorship
ummmm basically most teachers aint worth shit.

we have all been to scoool and most teachers are nothing more than societies drop outs too lazy to work a real job.

Teaching is little mroe than readin a fuckign boook and setting a few tests.

They are some of the laziest most over rated peices of shit in the community.

Yeah education is important..but taking into acocount all the holidays etc etc....i think they should count themselves lucky to get watever they are geting atm.

you must go to a really bad school or something, most of my teachers were brilliant, they worked freakin hard and did whatever we asked them

Originally posted by Asquithian
The very fact that you think teachers work REALLY hard only shows how little you know about other professions...I once thought teachers deserved more money...then i got to uni and realised how easy teaching is in relation to other professions...downright cruisey...

and it shows how little you know about teachers

Originally posted by Asquithian
compared to other people out there...im sorry to say that other professions work much much harder than teachers...im sure your parents deserve 100 000 a year

I would also like to point out that shock horror most other professional jobs require 'homework' its not like a lawyer goes home at 5pm and stops working...i would say that most professional jobs require just as much homework as teaching and probably more and probably at a higher level.

An areas that does a deserve pay increase is the area of nursing...

longer hours shittier conditions and more stress than a teacher...less money...?????????
All those teachers who got out their and striked were greedy...its not like you become a teacher for the money...they should all get back in the classroom and start teaching so people like me respect them more and support them when they want a pay rise...

lawyers get something crazy like $400 and hour, teachers will be lucky if they get $50, i don't think you can compare

and of course nurses deserve a pay rise, a big one at that, but that's a different story altogether.

Originally posted by mic
the reason why they're asking for 25% is cos in the past teaching salaries haven't risen in line with inflation. i read somewhere that in the 70s teachers were paid really well compared to other uni graduates, but then pay didn't really increase.

there's gonna be a teacher shortage soon when current teachers retire, so pay rises will do a lot to encourage others to enter it.

Originally posted by 400miles
granted... there ARE other jobs which put in equal the amount of work and 'homework' that teachers do... but a lot of the ones you mentioned - especially bloody lawyers - get paid so much more than teachers for it...

"All those teachers who got out their and striked were greedy...its not like you become a teacher for the money...they should all get back in the classroom and start teaching so people like me respect them more and support them when they want a pay rise..."

no you don't become a teacher for the money... but you've got to be able to live on what you rightfully earn.. my mum worked with a man who loved teaching... he had to quit teaching and go into real estate because he couldn't support his family with the money from teaching...

i was going to mention the infaltion thing. the only reason you have teachers now is because the pay was rightful for what they were doing, it has not gone up with inflation so in the future you will see many less teachers.

lol i know someone who left teahing to go to real estate..

 

[ihatecensorship]

fucking hell, Teaching is such a bludge lifestyle with all their holidays.

Secondly, their job is easy. So what if lawyers get paid $400 an hour. Being a lawyer takes brains, pretty much anyone can be a teacher.

Teaching is a cruisy job and although some deserve pay risses most dont. Maybe if we could create a system where they were remunerated based on performance etc or something like that that might be a fairer proposition.

But when 50% of teachers are nothing more than lazy underacheivers they dont deserve 1 extra cent.

 

[jm1234567890]

58000 * 1.25 = 72500

Now, that is too much....

sure, they may deserve a pay rise, but 25% is too much, escpecially over just 1 year.

mabye 25% over 5 years.

 

[Generator]

I am kind of suprised over your view on this matter, Asquithian... Which is the one profession that ensures that we will have future professionals to charge $75 an hour for legal advice? Teaching!

'All those teachers who got out their and striked were greedy...its not like you become a teacher for the money...they should all get back in the classroom and start teaching so people like me respect them more and support them when they want a pay rise...'
My mum striked, yet she is at her school from 8 to 4, runs however many reading programs given the nature of the class, is well respected within her school and cares deeply for each and every student (moreso than many parents)... Thanks for the generalistion and all, but greater levels of pay will reward (both symbolicallyand financially) such teachers for the work that they do and not just pander to desires of the 'greedy' textbook pushers.

Besides, everything stems from what were taught at school. Is that such a hard concept for eveyone to grasp? Teaching (at all levels, but the infants, primary and secondary levels in particular) is a very important job. The pay rise is required, especially with respect to the level of recognition given to a teaching career. That is not to say that other professions such as nursing do not deserve parity, but to belittle the teaching profession by 'putting it into perspective' is quite pathetic. Maybe it would not be so pathetic if it were a perspective for the 'common good', but such an idea seems very unlikely in today's world.

 

[Generator]

I think that it is fair, too. I see it as more of a 'oh, why would you waste your life away as a teacher' issue. Sadly, the only way to change that is to increase the level of pay for teachers at large so that we can ensure that the profession is respected by all.

 

[Generator]

An increasingly number of teachers may be apathetic, yet it seems as though the number of disrespectful students has also increased dramatically... The chicken or the egg, I guess.

Edit: Greater levels of pay would make the profession much more appealing to the younger people who are willing to commit yet have concerns over their financial future. Basically, if you did not mind teaching yet could earn an additional $35k per annum as a consultant, which profession/degree would you select?
'Throwing money' at the problem may seem simplistic, but is there another way to entice the right type of person into a teaching career (with alternative careers in mind)?

 

[Generator]

It's about $58k for one at the upper level of the regular teaching bracket (the plateau) (I think).

 

[iambored]

Originally posted by Asquithian
graduate starting salary for lawyers is between 37000 and 50 000...

yep, starting. the ending for teachers is 56K, almost the same as the high end starting for lawyers

but you are a changed man, you started to accept some other views over the course of the arvo? it does make your arguing stronger.

 

[ihatecensorship]

The point is, most jobs in society are important such as garbage men etc etc, its not just the importance of an occupation that determines the pay it also comes down to supply and demand and the difficulty and amount of hours required.

For a profession requiring a degree teaching is one of the e3asiest jobs in the world.

Bearing that in mind they dont get paid a whole lot because they are lazy, and because alot of people want to be teachers they cant rely on supply and demand like the rest of us to determine their wages....so they go and hold a gun to our heads with their strikes risking the education of all the kids they profess to love.

Fuck teachers, just get uni students to go teach, if they want to strike just fire them...they are so easy to replace.

 

[Ribbon]

Ok my view on the comparisons of proffessions... oh and I cbf cutting and pasting all the quotes so you will all just have to take a stab in the dark and try and guess what I am on about

'nurses work harder than teachers deserve more pay ect.'

yes, yes they do. I think we should take all the payrises given to teachers and give them to the nurses... why? because nurses don't strike ever second bloody week!

'Why should teachers get paid more than proffessors' 'because they do a much more important job'
pfftt... how on earth do you come to the conclusion teachers do a more important job than uni lecturers? Since when was primary and seconday education more important than tertiary? sure you cannot get to tertiary without primary and seconday and tertiary education isn't compulsary but that still fails to answer how the teacher teaching basic skills to kids is more important than the proffesser teaching our doctors to heal or even (omg) teaching our teachers how to teach...

'there are crap lawyers but that doesn't stop the good lawyers from making squillions.... crap teachers shouldn't stop good teachers from making squillions'
Ok you need to stop and reaise these proffessions are completely different. The good lawyers can make squillions because (omg!) the crap lawyers are still making crap money! Unlike teaching the pay is essential 'performance based' . and don't give me that crap that teachers work harder than every other proffession. Its generally accepted that to make those big $$ as a lawyer you have to work 50 - 60 hour weeks, and I doubt those ambitious enough to get to the big bucks would bother taking thier holidays...

On that note, you simply cannot compare teachers to lawyers/doctors/whatever other proffession that is highly paid. Because simply put they are harder proffessions to get into, you have to work harder at uni, and you have to work harder in the workforce and so these proffessions deserve to earn thier squillions more than teachers get paid.

I think teachers make plenty... they make above the average wage for an average joe kindof job...

this is cut and paste from the other thread on this topic:
I'm not saying teachers don't work hard (well actually, at my school alot of the teachers didn't show up to classes and alot of them where like 'read pages xxx - yyy of the textbook and answer the questions every lesson but I am sure thats not the norm) and don't have hard jobs but for the competitiveness of entry into uni and the time spent at uni I think they get paid pretty well. Its a hard job but so is taking crap while standing behind a cash register... you don't often hear of supermarket employees going on strike... I know people in other jobs which I would consider to be more distinguished or stressful and get paid less eg. trained ambos get paid around the same range as teachers (40 - 65k) and do a much more stressful job, my sister was going to be a vet and said they usually only get around 50- 60k a year. Senior public servants (a step or two below management) only get 40 - 55k. I grew up in a country town and the teachers were among the wealthiest people there...

Oh and as for the long hours/extra holiday debate... it would take working 9 hour day, everyday (which I doubt teachers do) to make up for the extra 5 weeks of holidays they get (based on a 40 hour week)

Regarding promotional oppurtunities: I don't think its correct to say they are worse for teachers than every other (or even a majority) of proffessions... head teachers get around 60k which isn't bad and deputy prinicpals and principals can earn over 100k in certain schools. You may argue that there arn't many positions for prinicpals but I think you'll find that in any workforce (unless you go right up there like med) there arn't many positions that pay that much...

In short, I understand they have a hard job and sometimes work long hours to make up for the extra holidays but relative to the scheme of things, they get paid pretty well ! I can understand ACT teachers striking because they got paid less than nsw counterparts.... it makes me wonder though if I am the only one that thinks teachers strike so much its stopped being an effective method of industrial action?

 

[um..]

firstly, it is true that after five years a basic teachers salary reaches somewhere around the $55-60k mark; what people fail to realise is that it stays there for the rest of the teachers career. taking in regard factors like inflation, increasing class sizes, and dramatically increased pressure placed upon teachers from a hierarchical bureaucracy thats more interested in frugality and economic viability than forstering a productive learning environment and you can begin to understand why teachers are asking for more pay.
those of you who regard teachers as being lazy bludgers, i have a little case study for you: the history staff of my year ten high school. of the six staff, four had phds in assorted disciplines of history and literature and the head teacher - in her spare time - chaired the historical society of newcastle AND lectured in history at newcastle university. all of them were completely comitted to their jobs and their students, and were among the most hardworking people ive encountered in any profession. but not even five years later the WHOLE staff are either voluntarily or medically retired, due to the increased stress placed on them by factors like the ones outlined earlier.
it's instances like these that are seeing astronomical teacher shortages, to the point where people like my father are teaching four seperate classes whilst heading an english faculty, coaching a football and water polo team, represnting the teachers federation - which includes briefing the whole staff on any industrial matters like those in the spotlight atm - and for the past week standing in as deputy principal (the proper one is off on stress leave). if more young people are not attracted to the profession, its only gonna get worse


and dont even fucken talk to me about teachers not being under stress - in my family alone, i've had two people have complete mental breakdowns from stress they've been put under while teaching (i dont know if anyone remembers an incident about five years ago when a newcastle prinicipal comitted suicide over a child abuse incident at his high school - my godfather was the teacher who uncovered the whole scandal). even my dad, who is the mentally toughest person i know, has had his own character tested on countless occassions, for instance being threatened during a radio interview by the then district superintendent with being fired, due to a mistake he had no control over, where he was provided - by the woman threatening to fire him - with the wrong syllabi to teach his hsc students

education is the fundamental basis of western society, and to treat those in charge of it with such little respect is just ridiculous. if you pay peanuts you get monkeys

 

[Generator]

Yet you can easily be accused of sexual abuse which would effectively end your career (which is why one-on-one situations no longer occur), you run the risk of being assaulted by an angry parent (quite common in some areas yet not in others), you may be held accountable for a student's academic ability regardless of their domestic situation, etc. I do know that such claims are possible in every occupation, yet due to the sensitive nature of child-safety and kids being 'our future' (ironic, don't you think?) they are particularly relevant in this case.

Maybe the situation would not be so bad if the profession was respected and teachers were able to educate at all times. But they are denigrated by many for taking 'an easy, average kind of job' and cannot teach each and every student to the best of their ability in many circumstances due to forces beyond their control.




Edit: This has been a good debate (or so it seems).

 

[Generator]

Yes, but they are much more likely to occur in the teaching profession which should be obvious.

Angry parents? Poor performance reviews? There is also the possibility of Nelson's 'benchmarks' going through...

Despite what many here may think, teachers are held accountable for their actions.

 

[ameh]

Originally posted by Asquithian
no they are not ...not in the public system...BAD teachers are not sacked...they are shifted onto other schools

omg that explains my math teacher

 

[um..]

Originally posted by Asquithian
no they are not ...not in the public system...BAD teachers are not sacked...they are shifted onto other schools...or simply forgotten about


teachers may be more accountable in private schools...

all public schools are submitted to departmental reviews that can be held at any time, and they assess the performance of both the teachers and the students. teachers can be repremanded and placed on report, although ive never heard of any being fired. but this prolly has more to do with the fact that teachers never put themselves in a position to be fired in the first place - your continuing reference to "bad teachers" is just ridiculous, i'd love to see how you can back up these claims

 

[um..]

Originally posted by Asquithian
i when to school...i witnessed bad teachers...

Continually late for class.

Not turing up for class.

General apathy towards teaching.

I hardly think u could say that there are not bad teachers and that these bad teachers or less than satisfactorey teachers or whatever you want to call them continue to remain in the job. I know cos i was a hgih school student they get moved on or told to get their act together while another year of hapless students passes though without knowing of the basics of whatever the usbject may well be.

firstly, what constitutes being a "bad" teacher is a subjective argument: being continually late for class or appearing apathetic towards teaching may be due to large workloads and stressful work conditions for minimum pay(if you pay people shit it's going to relfect in their work). but like i said in an earlier post, my father has had first hand experience with being reprimanded by the department (even though he was not at fault in the first place) and believe me it wasn't a pleasing process to go through.


secondly, i've seen people from all professions who appear to be bad at their jobs: policemen manhandling women and children, shonky lawyers and business execs stealing money from clients, nurses neglecting patients

does that mean none of them deserve a pay rise either?

 

[um..]

Originally posted by Asquithian
So being a 'bad' teacher is justified cos they have massive work loads?

You cant justify inadequate teaching on poor pay...

the difference with the examples of the other professions is that those people loose their jobs for malpractice...or at least have a greater chance of loosing their jobs...those other professions may even be subject to criminal jurisdiction ..while subpar teaching is subject to an internal repremand.

Just with the above ...'bad' actions by the above cant be justified based on pay.

asq it's the basis of capitalist society. if somebody is under pressure in the workplace and has no incentive to make them work any harder, wheres their motivation going to come from? (you can bring in an argument here about wanting to help kids learn, but after a long enough time working in these conditions idealism can on the rare occassion take a second place).
so yes, i can justify inadequate teaching on poor pay. it is the root cause


re: other professions at risk of losing their jobs
if a policeman shoots an innocent bystander, they are fired and repremanded in the legal system
if a teacher sexually abuses a child, they are dismissed and also legally repremanded
but
if a policeman is caught without his hat on, he is repremanded internally; just as a teacher late for class a few times will also be repremanded internally

you need to delineate between serious and trivial malpractice

 

[um..]

Originally posted by Asquithian
trivial malpractice over a long period of time is what happens with teachers.


I dont think you should be able to justify working below par based and what YOU THINK you are worth...almost everyone would say they were underpaid and think these deserve more money. You should do you job even if you think you are underpaid...there are other methods of expressing you unhappyiness with a wage rather than ignoring the interests of the children.

I think some of the people in the teachers union have lost sight of how much they are really worth and how much teachers should get paid and whether certian requests are just silly. The refusal of the teachers federation to Graciously praise the 12% rise doesnt do much for public perception.

My point is i dont think (personally) that teachers are underpaid...thats the whole base of the issue...

i recon 50 000 or so and quite reasonable. In fact its alot of money.

but you (along with everyone else) have missed the point that the whole basis for this pay increase was based on a review from an independent organisation (cant remember specifics, dad was telling me about it the other day) that made strong recommendations that, all things taken in to consideration, there should be a rise of at least 25% in wages due. so the teachers federation acted on the report and asked for the rise over a five year period, and this is what the gov. gave them

its not like they just asked for the money out of the blue - they're entitled to believe they are underpaid