stuff
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1. I'm not taking about increasing a churches numbers for business. Jesus destroyed the temple because people were doing buisness in it
2. I'm talking about people going to church to support each and help each grow for God and with God
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- Thread starter chookyn
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2. I'm talking about people going to church to support each and help each grow for God and with God
kkorpz
Casual Wanderer
shoot.. oh well.. better luck next time..Originally posted by Lexicographer
I'm not going to fight people in this thread. Notice me ignoring Asquithian? Yeah.
VX1-08U
Member
With point 1, I was just saying a church does not really require large amounts of people to function (which is the opposite to that of say, a business).
Your second point is vaild.
olay
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you know i must say... i don't quite follow a "religion" as such...because i feel that the teachings of baha'i is man created. and i don't mean to offend, but i believe that true for all religions. HOWEVER... i respect all religions completely and believe it is a wonderful thing. and SO... i fully support the teachings of Baha'i ullah. now.... if i could convert the world to baha'ism.... we wouldn't be debating in here and there wouldn't be [pointless] bloodshed over religion. Yey for baha'i.
we wouldn't be debating in here and there wouldn't be [pointless] bloodshed over religion. Yey for baha'i.Hottieflossy
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i havent been in your exact situation but its close: my friends are totally devoted to their religion and i remember it was during lent or something and it was a friday and i had meat for lunch and they all gave me dirty looks for eating meat on a friday. i pretty much ignored themOriginally posted by hipsta_jess
what i hate is religious people acting as if their better than me simply coz they go to church
like, i know one person, and he is so horrible, downright nasty, rude, abusive, etc, and then claims he is a better christian than me coz he goes to church
yeah, i might not go to church, but i still follow the christian rules the best i can; i know i follow more of the commandments than he does; and im pretty sure if there is such a being as God, then i would appear better in his eyes than this other dude (lol that was such an un-christian thing to do
Christian.
I admire strong Christians, such as Bethany Hamilton (lost her arm in a shark attack while surfing in Hawaii), and said she was glad the attack happened, because she touched people worldwide with her faith.
I haven't been to church in a while though.
I admire strong Christians, such as Bethany Hamilton (lost her arm in a shark attack while surfing in Hawaii), and said she was glad the attack happened, because she touched people worldwide with her faith.
I haven't been to church in a while though.
Lexicographer
Retired 13 May 2006
Gogogo! Church rocks. If your church doesn't rock, come to mine. It's Catholic though, lots of people don't like that.
Nick
foregone conclusion
thats the annoying thing, if its their decision not to eat meat cos of their faith, why should they try and push their beliefs onto you.
same thing at uni, everywhere u go theres christians trying to force u to join their club and giving you pamphlets and stuff, as if u havnt heard of jesus before and its their job to explain it all to you. by the age of 18 you dont need a pamphlet to help u decide whether or not you want to be a christian.
if it was muslims giving out pamphlets and cornering ppl in the street there would be a big outcry and theyd be labelled terrorists and probably sent to penal colonies in new zealand. but every other religion manages to let people make their own choices.. except ones that do door knocking of course like jehovahs witnesses.
Lexicographer
Retired 13 May 2006
You tool. Nobody is trying to FORCE you to join. They are simply trying to gain the attention of those who may already have an interest in it. There are many people who find being a christian extremely difficult in university, where almost all the morals popular among students run contrary to those taught by the faith, and often they do not realise there are groups of christians there to support them.
Similarly, there are just as many people who have NOT heard the whole (or even part) of Jesus' story, the same as any other faith you see evangelised. Nobody complains about the Baha'i posters, yet I assure you they are equally numerous.
As for Muslims handing out pamphlets in the streets - this is EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING DONE. I have seen countless small tables with Qurans and pamphlets, watched by bearded arabs. Nobody complains, nobody cares. If you're interested you can go up to them and ask questions, but they're not going to pull a hard sell on you because everyone called to spread faith (in any religion) knows that only pre-existing conviction will win people over. Unless someone is already interested in faith there is nothing that will convince them to take it up.
It is here that I must say how disgusted I am at members of the "atheist majority" who slam evangelism as "forcing conversion on people" when it is their own secular society that pressures people to abandon their religious values. Quite simply, I and all religious are to some degree sick of society telling us that popular morality is "more right" than that taught by my faith. If you expect me to respect your secular values then you can damn well shut up about me proclaiming my religion.
Similarly, there are just as many people who have NOT heard the whole (or even part) of Jesus' story, the same as any other faith you see evangelised. Nobody complains about the Baha'i posters, yet I assure you they are equally numerous.
As for Muslims handing out pamphlets in the streets - this is EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING DONE. I have seen countless small tables with Qurans and pamphlets, watched by bearded arabs. Nobody complains, nobody cares. If you're interested you can go up to them and ask questions, but they're not going to pull a hard sell on you because everyone called to spread faith (in any religion) knows that only pre-existing conviction will win people over. Unless someone is already interested in faith there is nothing that will convince them to take it up.
It is here that I must say how disgusted I am at members of the "atheist majority" who slam evangelism as "forcing conversion on people" when it is their own secular society that pressures people to abandon their religious values. Quite simply, I and all religious are to some degree sick of society telling us that popular morality is "more right" than that taught by my faith. If you expect me to respect your secular values then you can damn well shut up about me proclaiming my religion.
Nick
foregone conclusion
i dont know about you but ive never had anyone of any other religious persuasion but christianity stop me in the street. sure others may have tables, but they dont man both sides of a walkway and approach people so there is no escape.
i very much doubt you would find anyone at uni who hasnt heard most of the story of jesus.
its not really that much of a problem, i was just agreeing with someone else about how some christians tend to take a moral highground and think its their duty to "spread the word."
this doesnt stand for everyone, just an observation, dont take it too seriously.
i very much doubt you would find anyone at uni who hasnt heard most of the story of jesus.
its not really that much of a problem, i was just agreeing with someone else about how some christians tend to take a moral highground and think its their duty to "spread the word."
this doesnt stand for everyone, just an observation, dont take it too seriously.
aud
Member
OK, question? Why is it that you have never seen a Pagan out on the streets promoting Paganism? Or signs, or popstars, or flyers, or anything? Because we don't believe in forcing ourselves onto people, people become who they want to become it because they actually want to live that way, not because it sounds good to them or they feel pressured to. And Paganism is the fastest growing religion in Australia. So we must be doing (or not doing) something right.
olay
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maybe all religions should go for this table "you approach me first" method. you said it yourself -
which means the "non desk approachers" won't FEEL like they're having someones beliefs shoved down their throat [while this is almost never the intention, its what ppl feel and why they get pissy].
whos pressuring who to abandon what religious values??? what is this popular morality you speak of??? i don't get it. i thought everyone was pretty diverse in their views of morality and religion...???
Lexicographer
Retired 13 May 2006
You haven't been out much then. I see proponents of Islam spreading their faith in three different major interchanges (bus+train) every month, if not more frequently.
Wrong again. There are PLENTY of students (eg international students) who have not been exposed to Christianity. Though not so bad now countries in the grip of antitheist governments (eg China) actively inhibit evangelisation.
I don't know about "moral high-ground", but if you haven't noticed evangelisation is a core concept in the faith. It's got nothing to do with morality, we are by definition obliged to tell everyone about our faith. If you don't agree you can simply decline to listen, but don't expect us to stop spreading what we see as the Word. If you want, wear a t-shirt saying you're not interested or something.
I neglected to mention this, but often the people who feel most alienated simply don't see what's on the posters. They are overwhelmed by the spaces, the people and the mass of information constantle being thrown on them. More posters with big, friendly writing have a better chance of grabbing the gaze of these people.
Paganism is by its nature a " religion" or singularity - not one which emphasises the importance of spreading a certain klnowledge but rather developing the individual and its interaction with everything else. Christianity is a faith of solid community as well as personal development. We believe in collective discussion and development of faith as well as deeper personal affiliation with God, and the introduction of our system to others.
There are benefits and obstacles in both methods. Often people who convert to Christianity had been considering faith (not necessarily Christian) for some time but felt unable to approach the "passive evangelists", due to peer pressures, excuses such as time delays or uncertainty about the possible outcome. These people tend to be very glad that someone had the idea to come up and talk to THEM, because it GOT them talking - and thinking - about faith, life, death etc. Conversely, some people don't give thought to these things at all until the concepts are presented to them.
In any case, if you can reintroduce only one person to God in your lifetime then a lifetime of work will have come to fruition, and this is what drives those people in the street on. Too bad if you don't like it, because you're not going to stop them.
It is undeniable when religious morality is not congruent with secular teaching the religious who hold to their teachings are branded as bigots and outcast. For example, the Catholic Church maintains that abortion, adultery and fornication are mortal sins, yet popular (secular) teaching has embraced all but adultery. Thus Catholics are antagonised for their rejection of abortion (murder) and pre-marital sex. The Church does not push for laws stating that people can't sleep with each other until they wear the rings (since it only affects those people) but abortion is abominated because it takes life away. Despite this, society ridicules Catholics for "denying the choice to mothers".
Hopefully I've stated my point in an understandable way. Undoubtedly someone will mention homosexuality and other things, but I have deliberately avoided that because it is much more complex and my hands hurt.
aud
Member
Excuse me? What do you mean, it doesn't emphasis the importance of spreading knowledge? Of course it does, where do you think we get all our knowledge from when we have no 'set text' (ie. Bible, Koran) to learn from? We're all about sharing knowledge, which you obviously don't understand because of your blatent ignorance towards us.
And I'm going to bring up homosexuality anyway. Why do people have to bend the 'rules' of their Bible's to fit in with social changes? It should be timeless, but I'll bet Matthew and Peter and Paul and Mary and all them didn't think about everyone in the world when they had their story time now, did they?
And so, what, we're meant to not be gay because of your dominance over most of the world? I don't think so. Go burn yourself at a stake.
aud
Member
So what, you're going to gather all the international students and preach to them about how they've come to Australia, where they have freedom of religion, but they have to be exposed to ongoing displays of Christian 'slave gathering' signs? I mean, they spend all their lives one way, and you want to go and 'save' them and bring them to the 'light'?
And you still haven't answered why Paganism is having the highest growth rate in Australia. Maybe if Christianity was more appealing, you'd get some followers.
Lexicographer
Retired 13 May 2006
I SAID knowledge in the context of faith. That is, knowledge of your beliefs aimed at those who are not already practicing said faith. Don't bend what I say to suit your own ends.
Here you are treading on eggshells. So far I (and whoever else is arguing in favour of Christianity) have tried very hard NOT to mock other faith systems. Your pagan ideals supposedly preach the ideals of coexistence, though you seem to be making an exception towards my faith. Don't descend to pety slander, or nothing you say can be regarded as valid.
I considered responding levelly and rationally to this. Then I realised you're just using it as an excuse to make a personal attack on me, so to be blunt my understanding of the text would be completely and utterly wasted on you. You are not asking why Christianity rejects homosexuality (but NOT homosexuals - an extremely important point) out of a desire to understand or even mentally debate the point, but rather for fuel. I won't give you the ammunition you need to ridicule my faith, especially since I have worked VERY hard to restrain myself from ridiculing yours in return.
The revival of paganism in the Western world (not just Australia) is universally dismissed as part of the wider interest in "new age" practices, such as homeopathy, Feng Shui and Pilates. Though the former two are considered to be quite a good thing to get into (as they benefit mind and body without invasion or other compromising drawbacks) most of the "New Age" movement is rubbish. Really, I don't mean to poo-poo your faith system, but the amount of people who called themselves pagans in the census is a rather inflated reflection of the true "pagan" movement. Quite often these alleged "pagans" have read a book or two, and maybe even cook up their own herbal remedies. Yay.
I've met too many misguided teenagers of all ages* who call themselves pagans for the simple reason that they can't make up their minds about their own spirituality.
Christianity is not for everyone. There are some that simply can not resolve themselves to its teachings, or the Christian way of life. There are also a lot less true Christians than census Christians (as with your paganism), reflected in the poor face Christianity is given in the media. However, it is right for many people (even if only by much effort) and trying to put it down by claiming we propagate "slave gatherings" and other such rot will do nothing to placate Christians. You don't like our ideals, our ways, our laws, that's fine. Go your way, we wish you well. But it won't change us one bit.
*This device was used intentionally. Even people in their middle ages can have the minds of misguided teenagers; I've met them.
Note I do also know a number of happy pagans. At least, they are at the moment. But for every one of these there are thirty teenage girls who refuse to accept the "goth" category (or sometimes do) and would much rather call themselves "pagan" because it sounds exotic and cool, in the same way people adopt Voudon ("voodoo").
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aud
Member
I was not bending your words to suit my needs, I was taking exactly what you said, not what you might have meant, and applying them. And yes, we don't go around spreading knowledge of ourselves in obscene public displays, I can't imagine why. Why would you want to convert someone? The path chooses the walker, the walker rarely chooses the path.
I am not making a personal attack at you, I am pointing out what you have said, and then debated against them. OK, yes, telling you to go burn yourself at the stake was an insult, but it was deserved. And yes, I make an exception to your faith because it's the faith that attacks us the most. Have you ever heard of a Pagan-hating Buddhist?
Wait... so Christianity does reject homosexuality, but doesn't reject homosexuals? That's incredibly difficult to comprehend... you want to save us because we're still people, or something else? You know what, feel free to ridicule my religion, seriously, if you hadn't realised by now I love my arguments.
Gee... you sure now how to make a guy feel good about himself. I really don't understand the term new-age... I mean, yes, some things are from 'the new age', but is it still new-age in ten years? And besides which, isn't it more correct to call Paganism old-age, seeing as how it was pre-Christian? I get your point though, I know who you're talking about and don't agree with that, but you know, as long as they're happy calling themselves Pagan, as long as we don't end up with a bad reputation. I mean, it's not that bad unless someone does something like make terrorist threats or something and blame it on their 'Pagan' background. But they're encourageable, who knows, after reading more and more, they might realise a little bit more about what they're actually meant to be doing.
Oh, and Paganism and Pagan are terms spelt with a capital P. If you look back, I spell Christianity and even the title of your Bible the way you like them to be, so do the same, yea?
True. That Ill agree with. People usually have a misconcieved idea that religions like Chirsitainty and Islam work to 'convert' others and Atheists somehow dont influence anyone. Such a line of thought fails to take into account the systems we live under. The Systems that are implemented on a ppl/society influence the thoughts, emotions and ideas of the individuals. Unfortuneately, we live under a secular capitalist society, which implicitly acknowlegses the existence of a Creator, but incredibly regulates Him to the 'personal level' and where the meausre of success/failure is personal benefit.
Everything an atheist stands for is promoted by the systems we live under. Thier beliefs, morals and doctrines of life are filtered thorugh to the masses via the TV, billboards, newspapers, movies and what not. Adultery is bliss and repsecting your parents is 'old-school'.
i think you get the point. Athiests dont need to stand on street coners giving out phamplets to explain anything. On the other hand, Christianity/Islam/Judaism are faiths that are grossly misunderstood (for various reasons). Misconceptions are rife. The Societal norms are conducive to the adherents of such faiths to abandon thier beliefs and the change thier way of life. Thus they have a greater need to work to present the correct picture of thier faiths to those who deserve it.
Why do we spread our faiths? Well, Id put the question back to u: Why dont you spread your faith? If oyu think youve got the correct set ofbeliefs and that your way of life is so great, why dont you share it with others? Forcing is, of course, a downright wrong (and pointless too), but whats wrong with 'exposing' others to those beliefs in which you have such faith and think so highly of?
As to 'Popular morality'..its an absolute joke. One things immoral today, tomm its moral. Whats guiding the decisions as to morality? The human mind. The limited, biased human mind. So 80 or so yrs ago, homosexuality was a no-no, it was immoral. Today its the newest 'out-there' thing. Its fine. as long as theres consent. I hate to think what concessions 'popular morality' will allow in 100 yrs time. For all we know, pedaphila will probably be declared 'a natural thing' so it too would be A-OK..as long as there's consent...(God forbid)
olay
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1. well noone is stopping anyone from professing their beliefs - otherwise someone would have told everyone to shut their holes in here. i'm just pointing out that you got your panties in a toontie for ppl slagging evangelism, i was (from an impartial point of view) suggesting that all religions should take a "hi i'm here, take a look at this stuf its gold" method to spread faith [shown to work - note the lack of ppl getting the shets at the blokes explaining the concepts of their faith at tables.
]. That means no/less slagging bout evangelism, and ppl that are choosing the right faith for them by seeking it themselves. 2. before you said it was the "athiest majority" that were pressuring "people to abandon their religious values". and that they believe that "popular morality is "more right" than that taught by my faith."
athiests don't really follow "popular morality". its the very reason why they're atheist - they have their own beliefs on spirituality. i tend to find they're the ones with more individual thoughts on religion. which is why they do not follow any religious affiliations. and i don't see anyone telling them to abandon their religious values. i see athiest saying "you think your thoughts but please don't try to make them mine."
also, the examples you gave about Catholics and the way "society ridicules Catholics for "denying the choice to mothers". is a tad too general. i'm going to assume you were referring to the "atheist majority". but its still politically incorrect regardless - these are common thoughts of individuals... at the very core, though religion may influence these thoughts - it is upon the individuals judgement that these ideas are accepted or rejected. NOT religious beliefs. i'm sure i can find you Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists and Wiccans that all hold the same beliefs true [on abortion, homosexuality etc].
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