Relelvance of HSC Courses in Skill Building (2 Viewers)

[Absolutezero]

This is equivalent to the argument 'where am I going to use this in real life'
Study of mathematics gives you great practise in logical thinking (moreso in extensions), in General maths its more plug and play from what I've seen. You learn to pay your taxes/loans in both 2U and General maths though (though General maths is inferior in that it is formulaic)

Where am I going to use Permutations and Combinations in real life?
I probably won't

But you need to think logically in order to understand perms and combinations, this is something beneficial since it trains your brain to think logically and to be able to find what you need through reasoning.

And that is just an example, most of mathematics is beneficial in creating a logical mindset.

General maths is a joke.

This is irrelevant if the students can't comprehend the material. Better to teach pragmatic skills than leave them behind completely.

 

[barbernator]

I believe physics was one of my most useful subjects, which I developed and used many critical thinking skills. While the physics syllabus may appear to be "rote-learnable," I found that my style of learning, -to question everything until I could find a holistic understanding- resulted in somewhat minimal rote learning throughout the course. Of course there will be many who disagree, but I challenge you to score extremely highly in physics without being able to reason things through. (when i came out of the physics exam I believed I had stuffed it, yet it came out as my 2nd best mark due to my overall understanding i believe)

 

[Sy123]

Here is my list of subjects that in my opinion are the most skill building out of them all (top 4)

1. Mathematics Extension 1/2
2. Economics
3. Mathematics 2U
4. English Extension 1

First maths because it is great in providing logical thinking ability, makes people provide logical argument (geometry, q15/16) analysis (Polynomials, Perms and Combs, Locus) and many other stuff. Economics is next because it is probably the only subject directly applicable to real life that isn't a joke of a subject (i.e. General maths), I can watch the news and understand most of the stuff they are talking about, economics is also very logical and all the effects of things in economics are all logical outcomes of wanting lowest oppurtunity cost.

Then 2U Mathematics because it is mathematics, but its not as logic based as other subjects, very basic.

Then Extension 1 English because you study concepts at great depth which is good for critical analysis skill building

 

[SpiralFlex]

But how well you study and skill build has no relevance on the exam

 

[Sy123]

This is irrelevant if the students can't comprehend the material. Better to teach pragmatic skills than leave them behind completely.

What pragmatic skills do you learn in General Maths that isn't taught in 2U maths (at 2U maths its at a higher level), higher level geometry, trigonometry, finance, rates of change etc.
Statistics is the only thing that you don't learn in 2U maths that is in general maths, and the statistics in General isn't complex at all, it isn't proper like in Uni, its mere data analysis, something that can be done by anyone without even learning it (of course you need to learn definitions at first but that is trivial)

 

[Sy123]

But how well you study and skill build has no relevance on the exam

Is this directed at me?

 

[SpiralFlex]

Is this directed at me?

No a general comment

 

[golgo13]

But how well you study and skill build has no relevance on the exam

I guess but, studying in general "helps" in exams most of the time, skill build does have some relevance but it depends on what kind of skills. The ability to think on your feet can be considered a skill, or the ability to write fast is a skill. These all have some kind of relevance on the performance of students within exams.

 

[SpiralFlex]

I think you guys really mean you don't get to show your knowledge in the HSC paper (the knowledge you develop) Y/n

 

[omgiloverice]

AP Physics in it's simplest form is non-calculus based. It mostly involves interpreting questions and applying formulae - the math is pretty much just algebra and trig. It's what HSC Physics could easily and probably should be.

My old physics teacher reckoned that before the current hsc format (2001 i believe?) physics and science subjects were strongly math based. I don't agree with him for this part since it makes no sense to me, but he reckoned it was because they were male dominated courses and wordy questions were brought in to try and change that.

I think the board are worried about deviating too much from the way junior science works. They shouldn't be - that's what Senior Science is for and should be promoted as such.

Tbh though if HSC Physics becomes mathematical based the scaling and/or aligning will sky rocket. Compulsory first year physics subjects in uni have fairly high failure rates (~50% at UNSW i hear), and that is among students who have likely succeeded in HSC sciences and maths.

I actually have a physics textbook from the pre 2001 syllabus.
as you can see 2 pages from this textbook already has more maths than the entire 2001+ HSC syllabus.

Anyways the you can blame John Howard for this dumbing down all the science courses, but Julia isn't doing a better job with the Australian national curriculum either...

and when I met ap physics, I actually meant AP physics B and AP physics C sorry my bad.

 

[miss giggles]

That's ridiculous. General Maths is far more useful in skill building than the Advanced stuff. Not everyone has the inclination or need for higher level Maths. I did extension and haven't used a damn thing from it since I left high school. General Maths would have covered everything I've needed just fine.

Well said

 

[Absolutezero]

What pragmatic skills do you learn in General Maths that isn't taught in 2U maths (at 2U maths its at a higher level), higher level geometry, trigonometry, finance, rates of change etc.
Statistics is the only thing that you don't learn in 2U maths that is in general maths, and the statistics in General isn't complex at all, it isn't proper like in Uni, its mere data analysis, something that can be done by anyone without even learning it (of course you need to learn definitions at first but that is trivial)

I'm not saying the skills in general can't be covered in 2U. You think that every student is capable of doing the 2U math course and that's the problem. That simply isn't the case. The material covered is simply to difficult for some students. Those students would have no choice but to drop maths entirely. That is not a desirable outcome at all.

General has useful Math for the people who need it. That's why it's there. There's people who neither need, nor could cope, with the demands of 2U Math.

 

[Sy123]

I'm not saying the skills in general can't be covered in 2U. You think that every student is capable of doing the 2U math course and that's the problem. That simply isn't the case. The material covered is simply to difficult for some students. Those students would have no choice but to drop maths entirely. That is not a desirable outcome at all.

General has useful Math for the people who need it. That's why it's there. There's people who neither need, nor could cope, with the demands of 2U Math.

Fair enough then.

 

[brent012]

Here is my list of subjects that in my opinion are the most skill building out of them all (top 4)

1. Mathematics Extension 1/2
2. Economics
3. Mathematics 2U
4. English Extension 1

First maths because it is great in providing logical thinking ability, makes people provide logical argument (geometry, q15/16) analysis (Polynomials, Perms and Combs, Locus) and many other stuff. Economics is next because it is probably the only subject directly applicable to real life that isn't a joke of a subject (i.e. General maths), I can watch the news and understand most of the stuff they are talking about, economics is also very logical and all the effects of things in economics are all logical outcomes of wanting lowest oppurtunity cost.

Then 2U Mathematics because it is mathematics, but its not as logic based as other subjects, very basic.

Then Extension 1 English because you study concepts at great depth which is good for critical analysis skill building

You can argue your point for or against every subject being good at "skill building". While mathematics does require logical thinking, it's also possible to "rote learn" it as a lot of problems are fairly methodical - that is why doing questions and past papers is so beneficial for 2/3u maths. It is also why students who drop to general late often end up doing bad in general. From my understanding general questions can often require you to extract information and think a bit to answer them.

How relevant you find a subject is also quite dependant on what you are interested in and want to do after school.

 

[asianese]

This is irrelevant to the thread but wrt HSC Physics - I agree that they should bring back more calculations and calculus based physics rather than 6-8 mark assess questions. As someone said all those questions about assessing or discussing impact of ___ on scientific thinking, processes, environment, society could be covered in a HSC History and Philosophy of Science course that would just basically be a rote learn course. The main reason why they took out all of the 'nitty gritty maths' was because they were afraid of discrimination against non-maths people. I think it is a good idea to have a cirriculum that doesn't have co-requisites so that no one is discriminated against but Physics is definitely a separate case. The reality is that Physics requires good mathematical skills - whether you like it or not. I think the Board, in trying to be 'equal and fair' have sheltered HSC students so many of them get a shock in uni (from what I've heard - and this is geared toward those who were non-maths people - but why would you chose physics in uni if you were non-math? lol anyway).

Back to the subject of 'skill building'... I think the main question to be asked is: What skills do YOU (as a student) want to develop? If people like Sy only want to develop logical thinking ability, making logical arguments, then of course such subjects are good for those skills. If you want to test your time management and develop those skills you might want to do English Extension 2, coupled with Society and Culture and topping it off with Textiles and Design. If you want to develop communication skills you may want to choose Drama. AND THE LIST GOES ON. You cannot just say that the ultimate goal of the HSC is developing logical thinking ability (that's what your post came across as Sy, I do not mean offence to you) - because it's not. It's about giving the chance for students to pick what they want to do and develop the skills they want to. All courses are skill building, in whatever form and we must respect that. Ranking them in order according to criteria is meaningless. Maths Ext1/2 does not develop your social skills, nor does it develop the ability to manage major projects that have deadlines (like in the real world!!) - for example.

Please think of the HSC holistically.

 

[SpiralFlex]

Skill building or not I dont think the syllabus will change anytime soon. However the beautiful thing about education regardless of the curriculum is that you can learn what you want and when you want via different means whether it be from a book, article or simply chatting.

 

[asianese]

Just so you know the national curriculum is a bloody great idea - having every kid in Australia on the same, high quality education system. It just got in the hands of wrong people (not Julia Gillard, she's just a politician) - the 'educators' behind the scene that have come up with some crap that is supposedly 'satisfactory'.

 

[SpiralFlex]

Also 2013ers once you finish your HSC post and bump this thread I want to see if any of the opinions change

 

[Sy123]

You can argue your point for or against every subject being good at "skill building". While mathematics does require logical thinking, it's also possible to "rote learn" it as a lot of problems are fairly methodical - that is why doing questions and past papers is so beneficial for 2/3u maths. It is also why students who drop to general late often end up doing bad in general. From my understanding general questions can often require you to extract information and think a bit to answer them.

How relevant you find a subject is also quite dependant on what you are interested in and want to do after school.

If you rote learn maths you will not succeed whatsoever, if you try and rote learn mathematics the maximum I would expect someone to get in 3U is a high E3, in 4U a low E3 for a rote learner, I have seen a general maths paper and went over it, it is a complete joke (it really is)

This is irrelevant to the thread but wrt HSC Physics - I agree that they should bring back more calculations and calculus based physics rather than 6-8 mark assess questions. As someone said all those questions about assessing or discussing impact of ___ on scientific thinking, processes, environment, society could be covered in a HSC History and Philosophy of Science course that would just basically be a rote learn course. The main reason why they took out all of the 'nitty gritty maths' was because they were afraid of discrimination against non-maths people. I think it is a good idea to have a cirriculum that doesn't have co-requisites so that no one is discriminated against but Physics is definitely a separate case. The reality is that Physics requires good mathematical skills - whether you like it or not. I think the Board, in trying to be 'equal and fair' have sheltered HSC students so many of them get a shock in uni (from what I've heard - and this is geared toward those who were non-maths people - but why would you chose physics in uni if you were non-math? lol anyway).

Back to the subject of 'skill building'... I think the main question to be asked is: What skills do YOU (as a student) want to develop? If people like Sy only want to develop logical thinking ability, making logical arguments, then of course such subjects are good for those skills. If you want to test your time management and develop those skills you might want to do English Extension 2, coupled with Society and Culture and topping it off with Textiles and Design. If you want to develop communication skills you may want to choose Drama. AND THE LIST GOES ON. You cannot just say that the ultimate goal of the HSC is developing logical thinking ability (that's what your post came across as Sy, I do not mean offence to you) - because it's not. It's about giving the chance for students to pick what they want to do and develop the skills they want to. All courses are skill building, in whatever form and we must respect that. Ranking them in order according to criteria is meaningless. Maths Ext1/2 does not develop your social skills, nor does it develop the ability to manage major projects that have deadlines (like in the real world!!) - for example.

Please think of the HSC holistically.

I agree with you on the most part, I do EX2 to have a go at forming a philosophical logical argument, in MX2 I expect to form an axiomatic logical argument. Logical skills are incredibly important no matter what trade you want to invest in. People need to for instance understand how best to approach their mortgage, or defend a job application and assess information around them. This really is an important life skill, time management isn't really a skill you need to perfect, there is nothing at all complex about time management unless it is on a grand scale.

I can develop communication skills and all that critical stuff in English, and the good thing is, English is compulsory so that covers all of that. The truth is, even if people want to invest in certain skills, I am fine with that but logical ability is a must, it is just too important to go amiss, and people who don't do maths, can then find a form of logical argument in English anyway (to an extent).