Deltan
Noob pharmer
have you considered industry lala2?
Reflections of a 4th yr pharm student--pls read if you're considering pharm (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter lala2
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I haven't really considered industry because I'm not sure how you'd get into it. I think the main issue in all of this, as I said, is I've spent all this effort learning so much stuff that I'll never need. If I wanted to go into industry, I would've done a normal science degree. Hospital yes, you might use more of your knowledge but it's still not as much and if you end up specialising, well then everything you learnt except your specialty becomes useless. And as for community...haha I don't think I need to say...
The_highwayman
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i think the "you only use a small part of what you learn" thing is common across most disciplines, not just pharmacy.
The_Apprentice
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Why don't you buy a pharmacy or co-own it? I believe that you have to be a pharmacist to own a pharmacy (at least thats what I've been told). My boss just turned 30 and she co-owns a pharmacy, being a pharmacist herself.
You can work there part-time and do something that interests you at the same time. And you'll earn heaps.
Pharmacists are in demand and I'm sure you can find a job with flexible hours.
You can work there part-time and do something that interests you at the same time. And you'll earn heaps.
Pharmacists are in demand and I'm sure you can find a job with flexible hours.
Nanasaurus
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Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)
ww. I ddn't knw y cld mk tht mch mny s phrmcst.
srry, my frnd stl my vwls. m fnshng hr nd chsng th btch.
rlly ntrstng pst. hnstly.
ww. I ddn't knw y cld mk tht mch mny s phrmcst.
srry, my frnd stl my vwls. m fnshng hr nd chsng th btch.
rlly ntrstng pst. hnstly.
extensorindicis
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Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)
^^^^^^^ i can just imagine nanasaurus writing 'dn nt tke grpe juce wit liptor'
^^^^^^^ i can just imagine nanasaurus writing 'dn nt tke grpe juce wit liptor'
Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)
^^As for comments like yours, chewy123, nothing wrong with them but just trying to show a different side to pharmacy. Yes, there are many benefits, but that's not what everyone wants. Most people in pharmacy, even the ones who know from the beginning they're aiming for med or dent, are fairly bright people who want an education that will be fully (or mostly) utilised in the future (even the med and dent rejects are not stupid--they usually want to get registered first). Take out the stability factor (like I mentioned earlier, people have failed to get registration jobs) and there's not much compelling us to stay.
The highwayman : Fair enough, you will nearly always learn more than what you use in most careers, but I feel it's unproportionally big in pharmacy. That's the only reason I could possibly come up with as to why so many people are disillusioned with the profession and dropping out.
For example, pls correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that, for example, an Arts, Science or Commerce graduate who is successful in getting a job related to their major, would use most of their knowledge (i.e. their major) anyway. We are getting jobs related to our "major", but just not using a lot of what we've learnt.
^^As for comments like yours, chewy123, nothing wrong with them but just trying to show a different side to pharmacy. Yes, there are many benefits, but that's not what everyone wants. Most people in pharmacy, even the ones who know from the beginning they're aiming for med or dent, are fairly bright people who want an education that will be fully (or mostly) utilised in the future (even the med and dent rejects are not stupid--they usually want to get registered first). Take out the stability factor (like I mentioned earlier, people have failed to get registration jobs) and there's not much compelling us to stay.
The highwayman : Fair enough, you will nearly always learn more than what you use in most careers, but I feel it's unproportionally big in pharmacy. That's the only reason I could possibly come up with as to why so many people are disillusioned with the profession and dropping out.
For example, pls correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that, for example, an Arts, Science or Commerce graduate who is successful in getting a job related to their major, would use most of their knowledge (i.e. their major) anyway. We are getting jobs related to our "major", but just not using a lot of what we've learnt.
Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)
lala I see where you're coming from - people in my year (and I'm only first year at USyd) are saying that pharm is just about sticking labels on boxes. That's why I've always had a passion to work in the pharmaceutical industry - because I actually like the course, and the idea of pharmacy, but don't see myself enjoying a career in Community Pharmacy unless I end up opening my own business.
lala I see where you're coming from - people in my year (and I'm only first year at USyd) are saying that pharm is just about sticking labels on boxes. That's why I've always had a passion to work in the pharmaceutical industry - because I actually like the course, and the idea of pharmacy, but don't see myself enjoying a career in Community Pharmacy unless I end up opening my own business.
Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)
Hey danz, that's cool. Do you know of ways to get in? I'm ashamed to admit it, but as a fourth year, I know basically nothing of industry. What kind of work are you looking for in industry? I guess it's so neglected at USYD (but I'd imagine it'd be too at other unis). Though I must say USYD is guilty of being very community focused, which is fine since most people work as community pharmacists anyway, but other unis I've heard (from the students themselves) have more varied focuses, like hospital, or rural.
Hey danz, that's cool. Do you know of ways to get in? I'm ashamed to admit it, but as a fourth year, I know basically nothing of industry. What kind of work are you looking for in industry? I guess it's so neglected at USYD (but I'd imagine it'd be too at other unis). Though I must say USYD is guilty of being very community focused, which is fine since most people work as community pharmacists anyway, but other unis I've heard (from the students themselves) have more varied focuses, like hospital, or rural.
Tim035
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To those people saying 'go industry' there really isn't one, Australia's biotech market cap is tiny and dominated mainly by 3 companies: Cochlear, Resmed & CSL. Most other companies are in heavy debt atm due to the GFC & government reductions in funding (except maybe Biota Ltd due to Relenza and the swin flu).
You really have to either go to the states or start learning German.
You really have to either go to the states or start learning German.
sydneyphoenix
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Well, as a former pharmacy student (at Charles Sturt uni), I agree with much of what lala2 is saying. It is quite true that pharmacy industry is being saturated with graduates: with 500+ graduates every year in NSW alone (and I suspect 1000+ across the nation), and only about 5,000 community pharmacies in Australia, one can indeed find himself/herself in the situation of being left without a graduate or post-registration job.
The situation is apparently better in the rural areas, but then it's not for everyone. I was not, for example, and spent the year that I spent at Charles Sturt studying so that I may be able to transfer into USYD pharmacy course. To cut the long story short, I ended up in a different university and degree, partly because I feared the career prospect will not be exactly bright if I attempt to make headways in saturated Sydney market with Charles Sturt degree. Industry and hospital pharmacy are the alternatives that as yet do not employ many qualified pharmacists. From what I remember from days in Charles Sturt, only large hospitals (usually 200+ beds) have an established pharmacy department, and competition is already quite high.
For a university course that accepts only high-calibre candidates, and which involves longer training than many other professions, it can be disheartening to find oneself in such difficult position. While I cannot verify from personal experiences lala2's observation that most of the routine tasks in community pharmacies do not require all the skills and knowledge gained in 5 years of training, it is true that the most significant value of the pharmacists is to double-check the prescriptions to make sure that no adverse drug interaction is expected.
In regards to pay, the average income of the pharmacists in community is around 70,000-100,000 from memory (though pre-reg pay is atrociously low), and the hospital pharmacists begin from 65,000 to upwards of 100,000. If you do own a pharmacy and operate it yourself, serious income is possible (average of 225,000), but that takes years of hard work for a pharmacist to get to that level. Not to mention that a significant number do not make it there.
I personally believe that those who have passion for pharmaceutical research should consider a career in pharmacy, but if you set your minds to community pharmacy, you might find some difficulties along the way. The government won't allow the establishment of many new pharmacies in any metropolitan or large regional centres, and to achieve career satisfaction, move to the rural areas may be necessity for many. Keep that in mind when you ponder your career path.
P.S. To lala2, and any other pharmacy students on board, feel free to correct any factual inaccuracies that I may have incorporated, wrote it in a rush. Though I'm in the different pathway, wish you guys the best luck in your studies and career. Persevere, and you will get what you want eventually!
The situation is apparently better in the rural areas, but then it's not for everyone. I was not, for example, and spent the year that I spent at Charles Sturt studying so that I may be able to transfer into USYD pharmacy course. To cut the long story short, I ended up in a different university and degree, partly because I feared the career prospect will not be exactly bright if I attempt to make headways in saturated Sydney market with Charles Sturt degree. Industry and hospital pharmacy are the alternatives that as yet do not employ many qualified pharmacists. From what I remember from days in Charles Sturt, only large hospitals (usually 200+ beds) have an established pharmacy department, and competition is already quite high.
For a university course that accepts only high-calibre candidates, and which involves longer training than many other professions, it can be disheartening to find oneself in such difficult position. While I cannot verify from personal experiences lala2's observation that most of the routine tasks in community pharmacies do not require all the skills and knowledge gained in 5 years of training, it is true that the most significant value of the pharmacists is to double-check the prescriptions to make sure that no adverse drug interaction is expected.
In regards to pay, the average income of the pharmacists in community is around 70,000-100,000 from memory (though pre-reg pay is atrociously low), and the hospital pharmacists begin from 65,000 to upwards of 100,000. If you do own a pharmacy and operate it yourself, serious income is possible (average of 225,000), but that takes years of hard work for a pharmacist to get to that level. Not to mention that a significant number do not make it there.
I personally believe that those who have passion for pharmaceutical research should consider a career in pharmacy, but if you set your minds to community pharmacy, you might find some difficulties along the way. The government won't allow the establishment of many new pharmacies in any metropolitan or large regional centres, and to achieve career satisfaction, move to the rural areas may be necessity for many. Keep that in mind when you ponder your career path.
P.S. To lala2, and any other pharmacy students on board, feel free to correct any factual inaccuracies that I may have incorporated, wrote it in a rush. Though I'm in the different pathway, wish you guys the best luck in your studies and career. Persevere, and you will get what you want eventually!
extensorindicis
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sydneyphx what course are you doing now?
Hey sydneyphoenix, thanks for your many kind words. Yeah, at first I thought rural was where the money's at, now it seems apparently rural is where any vacant job is at. Pay wasn't really an issue for me (though of course within reason), but if I cannot even get a job then that's no money at all. Like I said earlier, I might consider rural, but definitely not for next year.
extensorindicis
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i think the pay may fall even further if the guild doesn't have its way...
Australian drug subsidy scheme &squo;dysfunctional&squo; | The Daily Telegraph
Australian drug subsidy scheme &squo;dysfunctional&squo; | The Daily Telegraph
Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)
I'm struggling to see why you would need a pharmacist on rounds tbh, if you don't know the pharmacology yourself then how did you graduate medicine. It also raises many ethical considerations such as confidentiality, patients may not want a pharmacist to know their life story.
Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)
^^I'm not sure why they don't actually. Someone I heard said their friend (doing either Newcastle or UNSW med?) said they only do one semester's worth of pharmacology and most of what they learn is on the job. So if you get a bad preceptor during your intern year, too bad. Maybe some med students can clarify this? I know it's stupid, but I guess that's why Asia is so much more streamlined--the doctor does the dispensing, prescribing...everything. But I'm not going to complain if it's going to give me a job.
^^I'm not sure why they don't actually. Someone I heard said their friend (doing either Newcastle or UNSW med?) said they only do one semester's worth of pharmacology and most of what they learn is on the job. So if you get a bad preceptor during your intern year, too bad. Maybe some med students can clarify this? I know it's stupid, but I guess that's why Asia is so much more streamlined--the doctor does the dispensing, prescribing...everything. But I'm not going to complain if it's going to give me a job.
Re: Pls read if you're considering pharm (warning: very lengthy)
Well we don't learn much pharm in med school but people who conduct rounds are usually consultants and they have quite a bit of pharmacology knowledge i would imagine.
Well we don't learn much pharm in med school but people who conduct rounds are usually consultants and they have quite a bit of pharmacology knowledge i would imagine.
sydneyphoenix
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I would believe that a pharmacist will have much more knowledge in pharmacology than a medical graduate/intern. Pharmacy degree has a lot of focus on pharmacology throughout four years (one of four branches of pharmacy!), while in medical degree it is one of many medical science disciplines that have to be covered in 1-2 preclinical years. Registrars and consultants are of course different matter.
Extensorindicis, the values that I quoted is from somewhat hazy memory, and maybe quite off. I personally take the average of 225,000 (quoted from a lecture in the beginning of year 1) for proprietor-manager with a grain of salt, though guess it is possible with good business management. As to the news article you've quoted, that doesn't surprise me much, there will be always those trying to exploit the system in any profession.
As to hospital pharmacist salary, you might find this useful (or perhaps have seen it before).
http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/resources/jobs/conditions/awards/pdf/hsu_he_pharmacists.pdf
It is interesting that the government grade the hospitals (according to capacity I presume) and pay different amounts to senior hospital pharmacist depending on where they work. I understand that pharmacy departments in larger hospitals will have more staff and more workload, but that may not be serving well the objective of getting pharmacists-and other health professionals-out to the rural areas.
Lala2, you are welcome, and I agree that going rural for pre-reg is not a good idea, unless that's the absolutely only ones available. Have you considered going for Ph.D. and research career before or after undertaking pre-reg year?
Extensorindicis, the values that I quoted is from somewhat hazy memory, and maybe quite off. I personally take the average of 225,000 (quoted from a lecture in the beginning of year 1) for proprietor-manager with a grain of salt, though guess it is possible with good business management. As to the news article you've quoted, that doesn't surprise me much, there will be always those trying to exploit the system in any profession.
As to hospital pharmacist salary, you might find this useful (or perhaps have seen it before).
http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/resources/jobs/conditions/awards/pdf/hsu_he_pharmacists.pdf
It is interesting that the government grade the hospitals (according to capacity I presume) and pay different amounts to senior hospital pharmacist depending on where they work. I understand that pharmacy departments in larger hospitals will have more staff and more workload, but that may not be serving well the objective of getting pharmacists-and other health professionals-out to the rural areas.
Lala2, you are welcome, and I agree that going rural for pre-reg is not a good idea, unless that's the absolutely only ones available. Have you considered going for Ph.D. and research career before or after undertaking pre-reg year?
Yeah, $225k sounds way off, till you get some real figures. I did a course in retail management this sem, and our tutor was one of the main partners at Bloom's. He provided the figures for one of the Bloom's branches (but not the one he was working at) and the shop's gross profit was $862,680 for that particular year (yep, actually wrote that down, it was so astonishing!) If you take out the interest on the business loan as tax deductible, you get all the tax from your personal salary back, plus reaping whatever's left from the business afterwards....I think you can see how 225k is easily achievable.
I haven't considered going for PhD and research career just because the thought of studying any further in pharmacy abhors me--I think you can see the scars run deep...my plan for the moment is to get registered, maybe work in Sydney for 2-3 years and just build up my experience (and ideally study part-time in another area), then consider locum or rural work.
What degree/career are you in now, if you don't mind me asking?
I haven't considered going for PhD and research career just because the thought of studying any further in pharmacy abhors me--I think you can see the scars run deep...my plan for the moment is to get registered, maybe work in Sydney for 2-3 years and just build up my experience (and ideally study part-time in another area), then consider locum or rural work.
What degree/career are you in now, if you don't mind me asking?