Raped by her uncle, but can she have an abortion? (2 Viewers)

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Why those three reasons? The third is pretty self explanatory, but i dont really see why abortion is ok is those other 2 when no harm is going to come to the baby.

As i see it, with a topic like this you should either be all in or all out, either say that the fetus has a right to live[due to some sort of beleif in jesusmagic usually] and the circumstances of its birth make no difference,

or that the mother has the right to abort her baby for whateverthefuck reason she wants, even if its just because she wants to go out drinking on a friday instead of taking care of a screaming crying parasite.

How can you say that abortions are normally morally wrong because killing a human life is against god [ or whatever] but then say "you know what? its ok if the mother was raped, lets blame the future kid for that and kill it, its not like its half her dna as well"

Either you go with the "its the mothers body she has the right to do whatever she wants with it, even get wasted every night then carry to term so the baby is fucked up" argument or you go with the "zomgz its a human life,you cant kill the precious little cuddly baby, even if noone wants it and the mother is 11 and might die from giving birth and she was raped by a relative" argument

No. Just No. You can't see the world in absolutes and there is something quite odd about your thinking if you do.

Also, "no harm is going to come to the baby" if it's conceived by incest? Are you joking?

What's your position on it? How can you honestly believe that such a complex topic must be thought about only in terms of extremes?

 

[Riet]

People are like "omg you wouldn't kill a baby." No, but I would kill an incest rape baby.

 

[Hollieee]

Yes, it can't be seen in black and white.
You may choose to think abortion is morally wrong in ordinary situations, but in a situation like this, where I'm sure I don't need to repeat the fact she was RAPED BY HER UNCLE AT AGE 11, then the wellbeing of a CHILD would outweight the wellbeing of another child that shouldn't be there in the first place. The fact this foetus even exsists is unnatural. The potential child is not being held responsible for the situation though, lets just clarify that.
So basically, no Serius.

 

[russianROULETTE]

Yes, it can't be seen in black and white.

it can, though...

if you believe that abortion is alright, it's because the foetus is not viable and hence not a human life yet. this means it is not murder, and should be seen as acceptable in all situations.

if you believe abortion is wrong, it's on the basis that it's a human life and is legalised murder in any case, regardless of the circumstances.

you can't say that abortion is right in some situations, but not in others. that's tantamount to saying murder is acceptable, but only in some circumstances. in this way, the issue certainly IS black or white.

i believe that since the foetus is not viable on its own and has not yet taken a breath or experienced life in any way, shape, or form, the mother's interests certainly have priority. if you feel you're not stable (relationship-wise, emotionally, financially etc) or ready to have a baby, or have any reason whatsoever not to, then it's not a very good thing to be bringing a baby into the world. in other words, i'm pro-choice...

 

[electrolysis]

we talked about this during studies of religion 1 on monday, and our teacher said there should be a right to use abortion as an option, but he also said that it was quite rare to get pregnant after getting raped.

 

[*TRUE*]

it can, though...

if you believe that abortion is alright, it's because the foetus is not viable and hence not a human life yet. this means it is not murder, and should be seen as acceptable in all situations.

if you believe abortion is wrong, it's on the basis that it's a human life and is legalised murder in any case, regardless of the circumstances.

you can't say that abortion is right in some situations, but not in others. that's tantamount to saying murder is acceptable, but only in some circumstances. in this way, the issue certainly IS black or white.

i believe that since the foetus is not viable on its own and has not yet taken a breath or experienced life in any way, shape, or form, the mother's interests certainly have priority. if you feel you're not stable (relationship-wise, emotionally, financially etc) or ready to have a baby, or have any reason whatsoever not to, then it's not a very good thing to be bringing a baby into the world. in other words, i'm pro-choice...

A rational reply.

 

[scarybunny]

But murder isn't always wrong. What if you kill someone in self-defence? This is why there are many different levels of murder, because not all murder is the same and should not be treated as such.

I'd argue that the same should be applied to abortions. If you think that they're unacceptable, consider factors such as harm to the mother, rape, incest etc. If you think they're acceptable, consider a case where a mother wants to abort a female foetus because she wants to have a boy.

Morality, in my opinion, should not be black and white. There's always wiggle room.

 

[Hollieee]

it can, though...

if you believe that abortion is alright, it's because the foetus is not viable and hence not a human life yet. this means it is not murder, and should be seen as acceptable in all situations.

if you believe abortion is wrong, it's on the basis that it's a human life and is legalised murder in any case, regardless of the circumstances.

you can't say that abortion is right in some situations, but not in others. that's tantamount to saying murder is acceptable, but only in some circumstances. in this way, the issue certainly IS black or white.

i believe that since the foetus is not viable on its own and has not yet taken a breath or experienced life in any way, shape, or form, the mother's interests certainly have priority. if you feel you're not stable (relationship-wise, emotionally, financially etc) or ready to have a baby, or have any reason whatsoever not to, then it's not a very good thing to be bringing a baby into the world. in other words, i'm pro-choice...

I completely disagree. There are exceptions to every rule, and I'm fairly sure I've made myself clear here as to what I think.
Obviously, if I want to believe that abortion is alright in some situations, that's because that's what I think. I'm not going to rethink my entire rationale because you don't think I can believe what I believe?
Basically, I think women are entitled to choose. I don't personally like abortion, and I don't know that I could go through with one, but I wouldn't force another woman to have a baby if she doesn't want one.
So I suppose I'm pro-choice, but I actually don't like abortion.
I just feel that in this particular situation it would be the most compassionate and logical measure.

 

[russianROULETTE]

But murder isn't always wrong. What if you kill someone in self-defence? This is why there are many different levels of murder, because not all murder is the same and should not be treated as such.

I'd argue that the same should be applied to abortions. If you think that they're unacceptable, consider factors such as harm to the mother, rape, incest etc. If you think they're acceptable, consider a case where a mother wants to abort a female foetus because she wants to have a boy.

Morality, in my opinion, should not be black and white. There's always wiggle room.

no, in a situation like self-defence murder isn't wrong. and i suppose you could say this is a form of self-defence, since she could die if she has it... okay, i'll concede that you're right, but i can still see how people see it as a black and white issue.

I completely disagree. There are exceptions to every rule, and I'm fairly sure I've made myself clear here as to what I think.
Obviously, if I want to believe that abortion is alright in some situations, that's because that's what I think. I'm not going to rethink my entire rationale because you don't think I can believe what I believe?
Basically, I think women are entitled to choose. I don't personally like abortion, and I don't know that I could go through with one, but I wouldn't force another woman to have a baby if she doesn't want one.
So I suppose I'm pro-choice, but I actually don't like abortion.
I just feel that in this particular situation it would be the most compassionate and logical measure.

i agree with you. i'm not saying you can't believe what you believe, i was just questioning your rationale is all... but scarybunny came up with some good points why my argumuent was incorrect... anyway, sorry if i offended.

EDIT: eeep, pressed post button too early. hold on a sec

 

[Hollieee]

Morally, yeah, I think it's only right in particular situations. But that doesn't mean I'm going to get out and protest women who want to have them, because I think it's a personal decision.
But that's just me I suppose.
I think (generally speaking), an 11 year old carrying an incestuous rape baby is an exception to the usual 'whoops, birth control slipped up' sort of pregnancy blunder.

 

[scarybunny]

I'd like to think that the biggest decision of my life (i.e to have a child) would be decided by me, not by a broken condom.


But I tend to determine right or wrong based on the individual circumstances of a case, rather than having a blanket statement that covers all situations.
Murder is wrong.
Stealing is wrong.
Abortion is wrong.
I feel that there should be so much more depth to morality than that.

 

[Hollieee]

I do agree with everything you said.
I'm just saying, the circumstances between being raped by your uncle and a broken condom are a little different.
But like I said, it's up to the woman =)

 

[Riet]

we talked about this during studies of religion 1 on monday, and our teacher said there should be a right to use abortion as an option, but he also said that it was quite rare to get pregnant after getting raped.

Umm, no. No different than normal sex.

 

[Hollieee]

Except for the slight issue of consent, of course =)

 

[scaredytiger]

we talked about this during studies of religion 1 on monday, and our teacher said there should be a right to use abortion as an option, but he also said that it was quite rare to get pregnant after getting raped.

because yes, rapists are much more likely to use contraception than the average consensual couple.

 

[scarybunny]

I do agree with everything you said.
I'm just saying, the circumstances between being raped by your uncle and a broken condom are a little different.
But like I said, it's up to the woman =)

Yeah, we have different opinions on the circumstances in which abortion is acceptable, but we pretty much have the same stance on morality.

Hurrah!

 

[lala2]

The foetus may not harm her now, but as an 11 year old, would she have the physical capacity to deliver the baby to term without significant harm to herself? Her anatomy has not developed to the stage where she can.

Besides, this is an extreme case and even the Church acknowledges it and I think she should have the abortion. And if by some miracle she manages to deliver successfully, who's going to be responsible for the baby? She's only 11 and would you charge her parents with the care of the baby? No, do not bring an unexpected (and probably unwanted) baby into this world.

 

[Serius]

The foetus may not harm her now, but as an 11 year old, would she have the physical capacity to deliver the baby to term without significant harm to herself? Her anatomy has not developed to the stage where she can.

thats a question that only a doctor who has seen her could answer. Generally if she can ovulate there is a good chance she can give birth, there will be complications though.

The reason why i see it as black and white is because if you are pro choice that means you support the mothers right to do what she wants with her body, you cant make conditions where its ok in some circumstances but not ok in others, basically if you support their right to do what they want then they can abort for the most trivial of reasons. I dont really like the idea of abortions, but i guess i see them as often necessary and i have no real drama with a fetus being killed so thats my stance.

If you are pro life, then that means you support the fetus's right to life, no matter what the circumstances, whether it is a girl and the mother wants a boy, wether it might be born with medical problems [something like downes syndrome for instance which is easy to diagnose in utero] then they still have to keep it, and if its an incest rape baby, guess what? christfags beleive you still have to keep it....thats the way it is, if you are pro life, you are pro life in every circumstance.

The reason why i said how the baby was conceived[ by a relative] is not that big a deal is because statistically there isnt really that great of a chance of complications, people talk about like it is going to come out as some sort of fucked up half human, people have used the word "mutated" but really theres only about a 5% risk of medical complications [only roughly 2.5% higher than normal] which still isnt recccomended, but i dont think you can judge that "oh oops, lets not have this baby because theres a 5% chance it wont be normal" so thats why i dont see it as a factor. Psychologically, yes there will be issues that both the mother and kid will have to work out, but i allready acknowledged those by saying point 3 was supported.

Rape, well its horrible but that doesnt mean that it makes the baby any less viable, the only problem this has in regards to the baby is once again psychological issues.


Basically i dont give a fuck, you can abort your baby because you dont really want the future hassle of finding a babysitter for all i care, she can abort the baby, whatever, i just dont see the logic in people [especially christfags] saying that "oh well normally abortion would be a sin and murder because every life is sacred LOL but this time its ok because the babies father was an asshole and related to the mother"

[and inversely i wouldnt see the logic in some big "mothers rights pro CHOICE] advocate saying that normally abortions are a mothers choice, but in the case that the mother isnt on the pill, isnt using condoms or any form of contraception except abortions that now its not her choice and she has to carry it to term]

 

[Kwayera]

There was NO NO consent there WAS THERE?

DID YOU DID YOU DID YOU?

He meant physically, and he's right.

 

[katie tully]

Yeah, what?
How is it rare to get pregnant after rape.
If the guy didn't use a rubber and if you're not on any contraceptives, there is just as much a chance to get pregnant as if you consented.

THE ONLY THING MISSING IN RAPE SEX IS THE YES.

God, this thread keeps degenerating further. Bring back the fundies ffs