question about chiropractic science (1 Viewer)

[SophJI]

i'm thinking of chiropractic science atm

i'm wondering why is the UAI so low? i mean it's not low as in general but low for a good profession

and would a women be disadvantaged being a chiropractor?
Wouldn't males would be better off being a chiropractir because people think they're stronger to fix them or something? ( my guess)


and if you graduate, do you get employed straight away?
is having your own practice the only choice for a chiro or can you work with other people

and i don't do chemistry or physics
do i need to do a bridging course?


can anyone answer my questions?
ty

 

[Kwayera]

If you want to do REAL science with REAL benefits, I'd recommend physiotherapy over chiropractry, which has no demonstrated scientific merits.

 

[katie tully]

You don't need to be strong. My chiro is a small girl (her work has done wonders for my sleep, but I get it cheap and it's nothing a massage therapist couldn't do)

TBH it's a quack science and although it feels good, it'd probably feel just as good to get a deep tissue massage. At least massage therapists don't try and warn you about the evils of vaccination.

 

[katie tully]

You don't need to be strong. My chiro is a small girl (her work has done wonders for my sleep, but I get it cheap and it's nothing a massage therapist couldn't do)

TBH it's a quack science and although it feels good, it'd probably feel just as good to get a deep tissue massage. At least massage therapists don't try and warn you about the evils of vaccination.

 

[SophJI]

If you want to do REAL science with REAL benefits, I'd recommend physiotherapy over chiropractry, which has no demonstrated scientific merits.

i would like to
but the uai is too high for me

 

[Kwayera]

i would like to
but the uai is too high for me

That's no reason to turn to the quack version.

Chirobase: Your Skeptical Guide to Chiropractic History, Theories, and Practices

 

[AsyLum]

That's no reason to turn to the quack version.

Chirobase: Your Skeptical Guide to Chiropractic History, Theories, and Practices

Brought to you by our sponsors, lol.org officialdom on the intarweb.

 

[dolbinau]

Random: In my HLTH107 lecture (Introduction to Anatomy, which is compulsory for Chriopracting students but it seems most people just do it for fun) this guy told me Chriopracters are 'medical professionals' and Physios are glorified 'massage therapists' . I suppose he isn't aware of the public perception.

 

[bubble_tea]

I have not been in this forum for a long time. Alot of people here have no idea about chiropractic and are offering unsolicited advice.

I've done my B.chiro sc and currently studying my M.chiro
B.chiro - 3yrs fulltime, M.chiro - 2yrs fulltime

Chiropractic used to have a higher UAI, but because they have increased the number of seats in the last couple of years and that there is a lower demand of students applying, the UAI has dropped alot. Don't let the UAI fool you, to pass the course requires incredible amount of work.

If you want to do REAL science with REAL benefits, I'd recommend physiotherapy over chiropractry, which has no demonstrated scientific merits.

Do you have any knowledge behind your statement?

Chiropractic at Macquarie is very evidence based. We have a 3 year b.chiro science degree, which is a normal science degree with one chiropractic subject per semester.. So it is indeed VERY scientific.

There may be some 'quack' chiropractors out there who give chiropractic a bad name.. But can't you say the same about other health professions.

We learn to approach abnormalities with a very biomechanical approach. There are some chiropractic institutions around the world who are very philosophical, and some very stupid chiropractic theories out there, but this is not the case in Australia. We are very evidence based.

and would a women be disadvantaged being a chiropractor?
Wouldn't males would be better off being a chiropractir because people think they're stronger to fix them or something? ( my guess)

Not at all, there are plenty of female patients who would prefer to see a female practitioner. You don't necessarily have to be strong, you have to be able to position the patient in a good setup.

and if you graduate, do you get employed straight away?
is having your own practice the only choice for a chiro or can you work with other people

There is plenty of employment opportunities. Most of them work under commission base if you work for a chiropractor - so you would receive a percentage of the patients you see in a week. You could also work in a medical centre, some hire chiropractors.

and i don't do chemistry or physics
do i need to do a bridging course?

Possibly need a bridging course for chem. It will definitely help you.. As with physics, you can choose to do the unit for beginners so it is not necessary to do a bridging course for it.

 

[bubble_tea]

i don't see how you can argue there are more places available and hence the uai is lower than it once was. (btw how high was it?) The government has increased places for physio courses around the country and still the uai is around 97-98ish.

I did not argue on that basis alone. However I did mention that because of the increased number of places + the decrease in demand of students applying for the course may have reduced the UAI entry score.

In 2005 the entry score was 86.1 from rough memory. I have known people who sat the HSC in 2001 and the UAI entry score used to be in the 90s, however I'm not 100% sure with that.

Just because chiro is 5 years does not detract from the fact that it is a pseudoscience. This is backed up by zero government funding for treatment through medicare and scarce private health insurance funding. Not to mention average consultation fees per patient is around $30pp, compared with physio which ranges from 50-80 for general practice and can be as high as 120 for specialists.

There is government funding for chiropractic, where are you getting your source of information from?

If you visit your doctor with a problem that requires chiropractic attention, they are able to refer you for 5 visits covered under medicare per year.

Also, if you have a DVA you are entitled to free benefit.

Work cover also recognises the benefits of chiropractic. We have seen many cases and written reports for work cover.

Health insurance funding is not scarce. I work for a chiropractor and on average most patients claim half back (depending on the cover you choose, the amount you can receive back varies from $10 to full cover no gap)

Average consultation fees are not $30. They range from $50 - $180 per visit. Depends on who you see and where you go.

The practise of chiropractic is so diverse, many practitioners practice differently which I believe is the reason why there is negative connotation to those who have an opinion on chiropractic. If you go to a chiropractor who practises unethically it leads you to believe all chiropractors are bad.

 

[bubble_tea]

No, it is not a pseudoscience. There is alot of evidence behind the adjustments we choose to perform, we look at restoring function: biomechanics of the joint, physiology and neurology behind the thrust.

There are many variants of health care that some chiropractors choose to incorporate into their practise, and alot of different opinions.

However, at Macquarie we are very evidence based.

 

[extensorindicis]

so how is it different from physio? beside the whole spine shape stuff?

 

[bubble_tea]

From my belief, I see physiotherapy as a primary aid for rehabilitation for those who have had major trauma (accident, broken a bone, operations). The physiotherapist receives diagnosis from the referring doctor, and rarely do they diagnose problems.

Chiropractors diagnose, treat and aim to restore function of mechanical disorders of the musculosketal system, we are also able to aid in rehabilitation.

For example, if you are having general stiffness in the back of your neck it could be due to alot of biomechanical factors: you may have restrictions in your cervical spine, you could have weakness issues with your neck flexors which recruit other muscles to compensate, you could also have respiratory problems which lead you to breath with accessory muscles (such as the muscles in your upper back to aid in respiration).. and many other factors could lead to upper back pain.. etc.

You may present with pain. Our primary aim is not to remove symptoms (panadol can do that!), we assess with orthopaedic tests and treat the root of the problem and thus 'restore function'. Removing pain is a goal but it is not the primary one - it would be great so the patient can continue to perform the things they want to do in life, but the problem could be reoccuring. So in order to achieve this in the long term, we must treat the root of the problem.

We do work alongside other practitioners! We refer patients to doctors if we detect any major complications or feel the need to do so, we refer and work alongside dentists for TMJ problems, we work alongside podiatrists if the problem is occuring at the feet, we refer to neurologists if we detect brain haemorrhages or other neurological problems that require attention. and much more! even physiotherapists, whatever is beneficial for the health of the patient.

Chiropractic may have had poor history in the past which is why it is negatively associated with older practitioners, with scientific research shows that chiropractic is beneficial to aid one's health.

 

[bubble_tea]

You don't NEED a referral from a doctor to see a physiotherapist, but it is uncommon for someone to see one without one.

They do diagnose, but it is rare, and most of their patients come from doctor referrals with a report stating their problem and what work needs to be done where.

If you don't have a referral, you can't be covered for physiotherapy under medicare and you would have to pay for your own treatment, much like a chiro.

 

[bubble_tea]

Actually whether they choose to diagnose or not could depend on the practitioner.

The physio I saw for my wrist asked me for my dr's referral and report, I said I didn't have one and he said that was unusual.

 

[Kwayera]

Do you have any knowledge behind your statement?

Yep.

Chiropractic at Macquarie is very evidence based. We have a 3 year b.chiro science degree, which is a normal science degree with one chiropractic subject per semester.. So it is indeed VERY scientific.

Evidence-based as opposed to science-based, in that there is evidence that chiropractic works as a placebo (in the same category as most alternative medicine), but other than the placebo effect there is no science behind it.

There may be some 'quack' chiropractors out there who give chiropractic a bad name.. But can't you say the same about other health professions.

All chiropractors are quacks, though most of them don't know it. I place them in the same category as anti-vaxxers, though admittedly they haven't killed as many people.

We learn to approach abnormalities with a very biomechanical approach. There are some chiropractic institutions around the world who are very philosophical, and some very stupid chiropractic theories out there, but this is not the case in Australia. We are very evidence based.

Mmm, yes, very biomechanical. Again with the whole "evidence-based" as opposed to "science-based".

 

[Kwayera]

No, it is not a pseudoscience. There is alot of evidence behind the adjustments we choose to perform, we look at restoring function: biomechanics of the joint, physiology and neurology behind the thrust.

There are many variants of health care that some chiropractors choose to incorporate into their practise, and alot of different opinions.

However, at Macquarie we are very evidence based.

Chiropractic is inherently and by definition psuedoscience, because it is inherently unscientific, just like acupuncture, homeopathy and other alternative medicines are inherently unscientific.

You keep saying "evidence-based" like it's a good thing. You remember the placebo effect, right?

 

[katie tully]

I've never been asked for a doctors referral to see a physio.

Usually only inpatients need referrals to see a physio.

 

[bubble_tea]

I didn't say you needed a doctor's referral to see a physiotherapist.

I said "If you don't have a referral, you can't be covered for physiotherapy under medicare and you would have to pay for your own treatment, much like a chiro."

Chiropractic is not 'pseudoscience'. This may be confused by the many strands of other therapies (that may have little science background) that some chiropractors have introduced to their practise, however that is not what chiropractic is.

There is alot of science behind chiropractic. The impact that a thrust has on the neurological system.

We learn alot of similar subjects that physiotherapists learn (orthopaedics, neurology, rehabilitation, anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, etc..)

A chiropractor helps to restore health to it's optimum. This could be relieving muscular pain/stiffness, assess posture and weight distribution that may affect patterns such as gait (walking) and imbalances that may overload compensatory muscles.

We assess using orthopaedic tests (THAT DO HAVE A SCIENCE/PHYSIOLOGY BACKGROUND, these are tests that OTHER health practitioners also use), and look for the key factor in the patient's faulty kinematic chain, and help restore health by fixing that problem.

An example would be my friend's upper back pain. After I performed tests on her, we found that her abdominals and her diaphragm were weak.. Because of the weakness in the abdominals, this caused her to breath using accessory muscles (SCM, Upper trapezius, levator scap), and thus caused her upper back pain. So in order to correct her back pain, you would have to facilitate her abdominals muscles, correct her method of breathing and release the accessory muscles.

A chiro at my work detected a brain haemorrhage in a patient who complained about headaches. He had seen everyone about his reoccuring headaches, and nobody he saw thought to check his ability to balance, or even perform an opthalmoscope test to check for red flags. We rang for an ambulance and he was sent straight to surgery.

My dad also had a brain tumour which was overlooked by the doctor he saw. Post-surgery, the doctor came to see him everyday.

There are mistakes that individuals in the health profession do. There are some idiots out there, this is life. Not every doctor is a good doctor. Not every physiotherapist is a good physiotherapist. and certainly, not every chiropractor is a good chiropractor.

Some chiropractors claimed that they were able to cure infertility - NOW THAT IS BULLSHIT, AND NOT WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS. Yes there are alot of people who give chiropractic a poor name. Some chiropractors ask you to come in 3 times a week for the rest of your life - no that is not the case! Some doctors prescribe you with anti-depressants just because you present with a headache (and don't even perform any other tests to rule out serious posibilities)

Misconceptions about chiropractic:
1. NO we do not correct curvatures of the spine, this is physiologically impossible unless surgery was an option. But we are able to manage the condition to its physical best.
2. We can't fix visceral problems, yet implement the possibility of it.
3. Subluxations could exist, but we don't use it.. we prefer to call a restriction a restriction or misalignment if it is one. We prefer to check for motion restrictions and see if this impacts on the patient physically.
4. Not all chiropractors hate vaccinations - I believe in it and I do get them myself, but check for precautions, side effects, etc.

Ultimately, and ideally I think a patient would benefit if their health practitioners collaborated together. Each health professional has so many benefits to offer to the patient.

I would definitely implement this mode of practise when I finish uni and become a chiropractor.

 

[ninjapuppet]

This is really entertaining to read! the old chiro vs physio argument.
i'm surpised theres not a huge influx of chiropractors comming into this MQ uni thread to defend chiro.

sorry for my ignorance, I'm neither a chiropractor nor a physiotherapist, but i have worked with both in private practice. (only physios work in main stream hospitals)

I'm from SA, and in SA Chirpractors call themselves doctors. so all my medical doctor friends dislike it for some reason. feel threatened? i dont know. actually, i think everywhere except NSW, chiro call themselves doctors. in some parts of india, physios also call themselves doctors, and havent been well percieved by the medical community. i think doctors are upthemselves to be honest... .. (haha)

in the US, most physio schools are turning into doctorate of PT programs, giving them the right to call themselves doctors, but most still dont. This is because the Physiatrists (medical specialists in rehab) opposed this.

by the way, i dont know what the 3 year GP fellowship program has, but in my 6 years medical program, i had 7 (seven) weeks of Musculoskeletal training! this explains alot of the ingorance doctors have towards chiro/physios. most my perceptions come from what i have found out through friends and my own reading.

so i guess its up to you guys to get out there and educate doctors what you're capable of.