Postmodernism (2 Viewers)

[powered by 06]

postmodernism is fun! ahahaha. i like i tnow.

 

[powered by 06]

go foucault yourself

AHAHAHAHHA oh fuc*

 

[ButterflyFish]

how is multiculturalism represented in DWM and how is that a reflection on australian society & attitudes???

????????????????????????????????????????????


thanks

 

[ur_inner_child]

my god i loved this course.

postmodernism changed my life.

and that is a total understatement.

 

[sweetsweetcandy]

I hate this course!

Am I the only person who feels like they're screwed coz they don't get an inkling of what postmodernism is about? I've spent the past 5 hours reading over notes from BOS and teacher's notes and I've concluded I'm absolutely screwed.

I don't even know where to begin. I can't seem to find a supp text to link decently with Orlando. I was going to do Curious Incident on the Dog in the Night-time, but can't seem to get much from that.

How do you even begin to write an essay on how po-mo challenges the nature of representation?

I'm.so.f*ked. The reason I'm venting is because our second HSC assessment is in 2 weeks and I know crap.

Should I really be understanding this topic at all? I'm beginning to feel really stupid actually because I have a feeling everyone else is getting it, but not me I'm so ready to give up.

 

[Born Dancer]

I hate this course!

Am I the only person who feels like they're screwed coz they don't get an inkling of what postmodernism is about? I've spent the past 5 hours reading over notes from BOS and teacher's notes and I've concluded I'm absolutely screwed.

I don't even know where to begin. I can't seem to find a supp text to link decently with Orlando. I was going to do Curious Incident on the Dog in the Night-time, but can't seem to get much from that.

How do you even begin to write an essay on how po-mo challenges the nature of representation?

I'm.so.f*ked. The reason I'm venting is because our second HSC assessment is in 2 weeks and I know crap.

Should I really be understanding this topic at all? I'm beginning to feel really stupid actually because I have a feeling everyone else is getting it, but not me I'm so ready to give up.

dont be so down on yourself!! pomo is always going to be something that's difficult to grasp. you probably just need to do some extra work to wrap your head around it.

ok im going to try and help you as much as i can!!

when studying pomo three theorists will become your best friend:

Francois Lyotard
Roland Barthes
Jean Baudrillard

each of these three came up with some of the fundamental theories that we discuss in postmodernism, and use when deconstructing and analysing a pomo text.

- Francois Lyotard:

Lyotard worked with the idea of "grand narratives" that is, the "truths" things like religion, science, class gender.
He believed that grand narratives do not exist, and that the concept of "truth" is a transient myth that will pass in time *(he basically denies that truth is one static property, and proposes that it is afflicted by and changes with context)

how does this relate to your texts?? well nearly every pomo text will attempt to challenge constructs. as well as challenging notions like the ones mentioned above, pomo texts also demonstrate lyotard's thoery when they challenge literary contructs and structures.

i'm not sure if you're studying the french lieutenant's woman, but this is a great text for realising lyotard's theories.
i'll give you some examples:

- the challenging of grand narratives:

Fowles challenges class in his text when he juxtaposes charles and Sam - and, furthermore, Sam in himself is almost anachronistic (form another time period, starring in the victorian era where the novel is set). when sam walks out on charles, fowles immediately challenges what was accepted at the time, and hence points out that "class" is not static.

(sorry if this is very loosely explained but i dont have my novel on me, and i finished the hsc last year!)

- the challenging of lterary conventions in FLW

i'm going to use a very general example, in his text Fowles uses the technique of non - omniscient narration. that is, he appears to have no control over his characters. there is a part in the novel when fowles states "i ordered him to trun and follow her, but he did not, he turned and went gratuitously to the dairy" (or something like that

if you dont know the techniques used in a pomo text, i suggest you run to your teacher NOW and tell him / her that you are having diffulculty trying to understand how to pick out a pomo text


ok theorist number two
- Roland Barthes

the most important theory of barthes and the only one you need to know is the "death of the author" barthes proposed that when we read a text, its meaning changes depending on the conext of the responder. hence, from this we can derive that a meaning of a text and how it is interpreted comes from the actual responder rather than the author. hence, barthes suggests, the author is dead.

again, this is also realised in FLW. and the same literary technique mentioned above proves barthes' theory. because fowles has no apparent control over his characters, we assume that in a sense, he is "dead"
(fowles even mentions this at several points in his book)


theorist three:

- Jean Baudrillard

Baudrillard is famous for his theory of "simulacra" - more commonly known as the blurring of boundaries. (simulacra themselves are the images which simulate objects and cause such overlap) this can be between anything - fiction and reality, forms, and styles of texts - notions such as sex and gender (obvious in orlando)


ill use both FLW and orlando as examples this time-

in FLW:

the section where fowles is on the train with charles is the most obvious example you will need to know for this one. by placing himself in the story, fowles immediately blurs the boundary between fiction and reality.

in Orlando:

the film plays with the notion of sex and gender. through the casting of the androgynoustilda swinton, and a heavy use of irony, particularly when orlando changes from male to female, the film demonstrates that the borders between sex and gender are a lot more intertwined than we may have previously thought.

(again im sorry for the loose definition - if you want i can email you a speech i did on this - i got 19.5 / 20 for it, just pm me)


ok now for the other stress in your post: choosing texts.
im not sure what the criteria for your assessments is, but dont be too stressed about trying to find a tect that fits perfectly with orlando. if it is allowed, you should be able to link the texts however you want (depending on the question of course)
this being the case, it is not difficult to link pomo texts because they use very similar techniques - so if you're looking for a text perhaps try to find one that concentrates on defying the idea of grand narratives




please, pm me / add me to msn / email me (this.fire@hotmail.com)
if you have ANY questions.
i would be quite happy to explain any of the above, im sorry if it doesnt make much sense, i'm a little rushed.
hope that helps!! dont worry, took me ages to figure out pomo. you shdoul be fine soon enough

 

[sweetsweetcandy]

^ Thank you so much! You're a lifesaver!

Yes I am studying FLW Thanks very much for your help. I wasn't expecting that much help. I'll definitely keep your points in mind (and save them).

I may PM you in the near future if my brain still refuses to grasp the complexity that is po-mo. I hope you don't mind.

Once again, thank you thank you thank you. I can't express enough thanks. You summed that all up better than all of the booklets I've read combined.

 

[Born Dancer]

^ Thank you so much! You're a lifesaver!

Yes I am studying FLW Thanks very much for your help. I wasn't expecting that much help. I'll definitely keep your points in mind (and save them).

I may PM you in the near future if my brain still refuses to grasp the complexity that is po-mo. I hope you don't mind.

Once again, thank you thank you thank you. I can't express enough thanks. You summed that all up better than all of the booklets I've read combined.

no problem once you know how to identify a pomo text, its not really that difficult, the rest will come to you. just as long as you can pick out little techniques like the ones mentioned above -- of course there are others (i'll post them up later) and combine them with applying pomo theory, you'll do fine!

stick with it.. it's a good course!!!!

 

[hazukashii]

Honestly, I hate postmodernism to death... to me it just gives off this "I'm a real smartass" attitude about it, but that's probably just me...
A couple of the only postmodern texts I have really enjoyed are Italo Calvino's "If on a Winter's Night, A Traveler" and the film "Amelie"

It annoys me that we had to study this just because we got the "philosophical" and "conceptual" teacher, while other girls got off easy with the genre study =.=

My assessment task is NEXT WEEK, and I still have not found a suitable supp text to go with Orlando. I was thinking of using Amelie, would that work?

 

[Oddy Nocki]

Honestly, I hate postmodernism to death... to me it just gives off this "I'm a real smartass" attitude about it, but that's probably just me...

No your not the only one.

Post Modernism is a flawed theory. People just throw it around because they need to find deeper meaning to works. Some time it's there, but alot of the time it's just reaching. And readings? ha. It the most absurd concept to appear in years. There are a couple of major problems with "readings" which include:

Trying to look through someone else perspective. This foolish for two reasons. One, You are looking through your perspective of their perspective on a work created by a third person who will hold his own bias. So nothing you can come with will be anywhere close to what they are thinking.

Two, your perception of someone elses view is often mearly a sterotype of them and thier cliqued viewpoint. This is caused by two things. One, you. A teenager lack both the capacity and the experience to judge people's point of view. Don't be dis-heartern, most people will never gain said knowledge. And two, this whole system seperates things into black and white. News flash: Nothing is black and white, there are always outside factor that effect things and people's view.

These two things make "doing a reading" a moot point. It will never resolve anything. And can only lead to a blurred view of the author. Yes I said it, I know it's a dirty word. Because only your reading counts, not what the person who came up with the idea has to say. But, your reading on other readers is fine and dandy. hmm/ that makes sense, dosen't it?

I'm still unclear as to why we ignore the author intentions. Isn't the reason created something, to express an idea, his/her idea. Why should anyone create something if what they want to say is going to be ignored?

I am open to change, (I can be saved brother, sort of) so please I invite challenge, it helps me think these ideas through.

EDIT: To anyone who decides to say what I said in class. Be warned, expect to tackle a whole class of people who have not thought this shit through. So unless you can argue, and I mean really argue I would think hard before bringing it up. But hey, I ain't your keeper, so if you want to more power to you.

 

[doradiamond]

*assumes a pretentious air*

honestly don't stress about pomo... dont u wish u had a checklist though so you could go "tick tick tick" yup this is pomo? well here's some stuff i dug up from last year:

Post Modernism:

Post modernism challenged convention.
Jacque Derrida – the father of post structuralism.
Post structuralism believed that language constructed the world.

Challenging conventional structure
Intertexuality
Authoritorial self-consciousness
Self-reflexive

Deconstruction:
The aim is to highlight what is represented in the text… to breakdown the oppositions that drive a text and society, to show that the terms of opposition are dependant on each other and then to reverse the hierarchy. It ultimately aims to equalize the terms.
EG. Light/dark, masculine/feminine, absence/presence.
How does a text argue against its points?
Is there a difference between what the text says and what it does?

The Role of the Author:
A text, by its very nature, is a construct (a man made thing) woven together from the author’s intention and also his/her unconscious biases. Deconstruction explores these unconscious elements.

The task of the reader is to explore the diversity of its possible meanings, its omissions, its contradictions and ambiguities; to reveal the assumptions of the author and society. Texts are plural and contain “the play of difference”, self division and non-unity.


read up on existentialism, sartre etc and all that to be able to provide rhetoric (read: crap) on pomo!

 

[Clarebare]

Argh. I'm doing po mo for x1 and it's breaking my brain. It's not so much the theory of po mo that worries me, but the fact that we have to put it into practice for our assessment. I mean, how exactly does one write a post modern story? I just can't. I try, but it always sounds like shit. I'd much prefer to be writing an essay - I'm not too good at this creativity lark.

 

[Emma_Kate]

Yay, other people doing postmodernism!
Argh I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!!! I don't understand why our teachers inflict us with this pain!
Our school has done individual and society for years (which I would have loved!) and then all of a sudden decided to make us do postmodernism!
Anyway, enough of my rant (which could go on for pages and pages), I had to hand my pomo creative writing in last week, and I think the hardest part was getting ideas.
Just think of a good idea and just pick one pomo philosophy and try and express the concept in your story. I always thought it would be interesting to have a pomo story at like a pharmacy, I don't really know why though..I guess you could use lots of symbolism? Anyway hope that helped!

 

[Keys]

hey ppls...im another one of those who HATES pomo...i cant stand it.i have my exam in 2 days and i cant put anything down on paper....has anyone studied Coming Soon!!! by john barth??and is ANYONE doing Possession????
im just about ready to pull my hair out!!!!!!!

 

[The Brucemaster]

Im not a hater of postmodernism as such (although it can be very frustrating at times) but what Oddy Nickis says about it being a flawed theory is somewhat correct.
Post modernism says that there is no such thing as objective truth and that truth is merely a transient ideal influenced primarily by context. However, if this is true then that means what its saying isnt because therefore this statement would be an objective truth. Clearly a contradiction.
But, one must realise that postmodernism is not so much an intellectual theory about the world but an artistic movement that reflects contemporary culture. As such, we must be wary of contemporary culture and the way PM reflects it and not view PM as an isolated intellectual theory.
If we do this we see that the world is full of contradictions, double standards and so on. Politics, social views, all are full of conflicting ideas.
If we then combine this with the idea that postmodernism is not so much an intellectual theory but an artistic movement which reflects society is it any wonder that PM is also full of contradictions?

 

[pungemo]

Yep, post-modernism can be pretty annoying sometimes. Bruce here is right though, post-modernism started in architecture and has since spread to other forms of expression. Then again, neither can you take any post-modernist particularly seriously. If you take them seriously you don't grasp the concepts of post-modernism.

 

[withoutaface]

Discourses of Rubicon: Subtextual narrative in the works of Joyce
John Hubbard
Department of English, University of California, Berkeley
1. Patriarchial deconstruction and neodeconstructivist narrative

“Class is impossible,” says Marx. Thus, in Finnegan’s Wake, Joyce analyses capitalist rationalism; in Ulysses he deconstructs postsemanticist discourse.

The subject is interpolated into a capitalist rationalism that includes language as a paradox. In a sense, many desituationisms concerning neodeconstructivist narrative exist.

Foucault uses the term ‘capitalist rationalism’ to denote not discourse, as subtextual narrative suggests, but prediscourse. It could be said that Lyotard’s critique of capitalist rationalism implies that the task of the participant is deconstruction.

Foucault suggests the use of cultural deconstruction to deconstruct outmoded perceptions of art. Therefore, neodeconstructivist narrative states that reality serves to reinforce capitalism.
2. Joyce and subtextual narrative

If one examines neodeconstructivist narrative, one is faced with a choice: either accept subtextual narrative or conclude that narrative must come from the masses. Lyotard uses the term ‘neodeconstructivist narrative’ to denote the collapse, and subsequent dialectic, of postcapitalist society. But the subject is contextualised into a subtextual narrative that includes consciousness as a totality.

In the works of Joyce, a predominant concept is the distinction between without and within. The primary theme of Tilton’s[1] analysis of capitalist rationalism is the bridge between sexual identity and language. However, the premise of constructivist Marxism implies that the law is intrinsically a legal fiction, but only if capitalist rationalism is invalid.

If one examines the neocultural paradigm of reality, one is faced with a choice: either reject neodeconstructivist narrative or conclude that the purpose of the writer is significant form. A number of narratives concerning a mythopoetical reality may be found. It could be said that the main theme of the works of Joyce is not, in fact, sublimation, but presublimation.

In the works of Joyce, a predominant concept is the concept of capitalist reality. If postcultural capitalist theory holds, the works of Joyce are empowering. Therefore, the premise of capitalist rationalism suggests that sexuality is part of the paradigm of truth.

If one examines subtextual narrative, one is faced with a choice: either accept Lacanist obscurity or conclude that culture is used to disempower the Other. The primary theme of Prinn’s[2] essay on neodeconstructivist narrative is a self-supporting whole. Thus, Finnis[3] states that we have to choose between subtextual narrative and cultural narrative.

“Class is responsible for class divisions,” says Sontag; however, according to la Fournier[4] , it is not so much class that is responsible for class divisions, but rather the defining characteristic, and therefore the failure, of class. Any number of theories concerning dialectic rationalism exist. It could be said that the subject is interpolated into a capitalist rationalism that includes consciousness as a totality.

If one examines subtextual narrative, one is faced with a choice: either reject capitalist rationalism or conclude that the media is capable of significance, given that sexuality is distinct from narrativity. A number of discourses concerning the difference between sexual identity and class may be revealed. Thus, Baudrillard promotes the use of neocapitalist narrative to attack and modify sexual identity.

The characteristic theme of the works of Burroughs is the role of the observer as reader. Therefore, any number of desublimations concerning neodeconstructivist narrative exist.

If textual feminism holds, we have to choose between neodeconstructivist narrative and presemantic discourse. Thus, the ground/figure distinction which is a central theme of Burroughs’s Nova Express emerges again in Queer, although in a more mythopoetical sense.

The subject is contextualised into a capitalist rationalism that includes reality as a paradox. But Debord suggests the use of neodeconstructivist narrative to deconstruct the status quo.

Baudrillard uses the term ’subtextual narrative’ to denote not appropriation as such, but neoappropriation. It could be said that the subject is interpolated into a neodeconstructivist narrative that includes language as a whole.

In Nova Express, Burroughs examines capitalist rationalism; in The Soft Machine, however, he analyses subtextual narrative. But Lyotard promotes the use of capitalist rationalism to analyse truth.

The subject is contextualised into a Foucaultist power relations that includes sexuality as a totality. Thus, Lacan uses the term ’subtextual narrative’ to denote the stasis, and subsequent genre, of cultural society.

Humphrey[5] holds that we have to choose between neodeconstructivist narrative and cultural objectivism. Therefore, if capitalist rationalism holds, the works of Burroughs are not postmodern.

The primary theme of Wilson’s[6] analysis of subtextual narrative is the common ground between class and consciousness. Thus, capitalist rationalism states that society has intrinsic meaning.
3. Contexts of genre

In the works of Burroughs, a predominant concept is the distinction between without and within. Sartre suggests the use of neodeconstructivist narrative to challenge capitalism. But Lacan’s essay on subtextual narrative suggests that the raison d’etre of the writer is social comment, but only if the premise of Baudrillardist simulation is valid; if that is not the case, sexuality, perhaps surprisingly, has significance.

The characteristic theme of the works of Burroughs is a self-referential paradox. The primary theme of d’Erlette’s[7] model of capitalist rationalism is the collapse, and eventually the economy, of structuralist sexual identity. It could be said that the postdialectic paradigm of consensus implies that narrativity is fundamentally dead.

In the works of Burroughs, a predominant concept is the concept of textual culture. Sontag uses the term ’subtextual narrative’ to denote a precapitalist totality. However, Hubbard[8] states that we have to choose between neodeconstructivist narrative and subtextual appropriation.

If one examines capitalist rationalism, one is faced with a choice: either accept the dialectic paradigm of reality or conclude that the State is capable of intention. Marx’s analysis of capitalist rationalism implies that society has objective value, given that narrativity is interchangeable with culture. In a sense, Bataille promotes the use of subtextual narrative to read and modify language.

The premise of presemioticist textual theory holds that discourse is a product of the collective unconscious. Thus, several narratives concerning the paradigm, and hence the futility, of neodialectic sexual identity may be discovered.

Sartre uses the term ‘capitalist rationalism’ to denote the role of the observer as artist. But an abundance of deconstructions concerning capitalist appropriation exist.

Sontag uses the term ’subtextual narrative’ to denote a self-supporting whole. Therefore, the characteristic theme of the works of Burroughs is the meaninglessness, and eventually the rubicon, of postdialectic class.

Sartre suggests the use of capitalist rationalism to attack sexism. But several narratives concerning the bridge between reality and class may be found.

The subject is interpolated into a Batailleist `powerful communication’ that includes truth as a paradox. However, Lyotard promotes the use of subtextual narrative to deconstruct language.

If neodeconstructivist narrative holds, we have to choose between capitalist nihilism and Derridaist reading. But Debord suggests the use of subtextual narrative to challenge hierarchy.
4. Burroughs and the neocultural paradigm of reality

“Society is part of the meaninglessness of sexuality,” says Lacan. The example of subtextual narrative prevalent in Burroughs’s The Ticket that Exploded is also evident in Queer. Thus, the main theme of Dahmus’s[9] critique of capitalist rationalism is the role of the reader as observer.

In the works of Burroughs, a predominant concept is the distinction between figure and ground. Foucault uses the term ’subtextual narrative’ to denote not discourse, but subdiscourse. It could be said that the primary theme of the works of Burroughs is the failure, and thus the collapse, of conceptualist class.

Baudrillard uses the term ‘neodeconstructivist narrative’ to denote a neostructural reality. Thus, Scuglia[10] states that we have to choose between capitalist rationalism and textual theory.

Foucault uses the term ‘the subsemantic paradigm of context’ to denote the role of the poet as artist. Therefore, capitalist rationalism holds that reality is capable of significance, but only if the premise of neodeconstructivist narrative is invalid.

Lacan uses the term ‘capitalist rationalism’ to denote the difference between class and sexuality. In a sense, the characteristic theme of Dietrich’s[11] essay on capitalist libertarianism is the meaninglessness, and some would say the stasis, of neodialectic society.

An abundance of constructivisms concerning subtextual narrative exist. It could be said that Baudrillard promotes the use of neodeconstructivist narrative to analyse and read sexual identity.
5. Realities of defining characteristic

If one examines capitalist rationalism, one is faced with a choice: either reject patriarchial subcultural theory or conclude that government is elitist. In Chasing Amy, Smith affirms neodeconstructivist narrative; in Mallrats he reiterates subtextual narrative. Therefore, Sartre uses the term ‘capitalist rationalism’ to denote not discourse, but neodiscourse.

“Society is intrinsically impossible,” says Lacan. If subtextual narrative holds, the works of Smith are modernistic. In a sense, Debord uses the term ‘capitalist rationalism’ to denote the rubicon, and subsequent failure, of modernist sexual identity.

“Class is part of the paradigm of language,” says Lacan; however, according to de Selby[12] , it is not so much class that is part of the paradigm of language, but rather the stasis, and eventually the futility, of class. Neodeconstructivist narrative states that the significance of the participant is significant form, given that reality is equal to language. It could be said that the subject is contextualised into a subtextual narrative that includes sexuality as a totality.

Sartre uses the term ‘Debordist image’ to denote the role of the writer as observer. Thus, the main theme of the works of Smith is the economy, and some would say the futility, of semiotic narrativity.

Baudrillard’s analysis of capitalist rationalism implies that reality is fundamentally dead. However, the within/without distinction which is a central theme of Smith’s Chasing Amy emerges again in Dogma, although in a more mythopoetical sense.

Sontag suggests the use of neotextual modern theory to deconstruct sexism. Thus, the premise of subtextual narrative suggests that consensus must come from communication, but only if capitalist rationalism is valid; otherwise, we can assume that the State is elitist.

The subject is interpolated into a subtextual narrative that includes narrativity as a paradox. But Bataille’s critique of capitalist rationalism holds that the goal of the artist is social comment, given that consciousness is distinct from language.

1. Tilton, K. P. H. ed. (1990) Capitalist rationalism and subtextual narrative. Oxford University Press

2. Prinn, I. Q. (1987) Forgetting Derrida: Capitalist rationalism in the works of Burroughs. Yale University Press

3. Finnis, H. ed. (1991) Feminism, neomaterial deconstruction and subtextual narrative. Schlangekraft

4. la Fournier, B. E. (1979) The Iron Sky: Subtextual narrative and capitalist rationalism. University of North Carolina Press

5. Humphrey, N. B. T. ed. (1981) Capitalist rationalism and subtextual narrative. And/Or Press

6. Wilson, G. (1977) Expressions of Stasis: Subtextual narrative in the works of McLaren. Oxford University Press

7. d’Erlette, N. E. T. ed. (1995) Subtextual narrative, feminism and predialectic sublimation. Panic Button Books

8. Hubbard, N. V. (1976) Reassessing Social realism: Subtextual narrative and capitalist rationalism. Schlangekraft

9. Dahmus, U. ed. (1987) Patriarchial postcapitalist theory, subtextual narrative and feminism. Cambridge University Press

10. Scuglia, O. Z. (1974) The Genre of Society: Capitalist rationalism and subtextual narrative. Loompanics

11. Dietrich, Y. K. V. ed. (1985) Subtextual narrative in the works of Smith. Harvard University Press

12. de Selby, W. N. (1998) The Burning Key: Subtextual narrative and capitalist rationalism. And/Or Press

 

[pungemo]

Surely you realise very few people are going to bother reading all that and I hardly feel it is going to help anyone struggling with the concepts.

 

[rayprasad88]

Hey, would u be able to send ur notes on pomo to me...
I really need help...
Orlando, Dead White Males, If on A winters Night a Traveller

 

[Born Dancer]

Hey, would u be able to send ur notes on pomo to me...
I really need help...
Orlando, Dead White Males, If on A winters Night a Traveller

what do you need help on? there's already a lot of help available on the forums.. dl abs's notes. have a look at my thread on pomo techniques, also in this particular thread ive put a concise rundown of the main theories.
what specifically are you looking for?