How does postgraduate study work? What are the levels? How long does it take to attain each? Which order are they attained in? Why is it possible to get a Masters without Honours. Can you get a PhD without Masters? How are they graded (first class ..)?
postgraduate (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter iambored
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xeuyrawp
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Holy fuck...iambored said:
Levels?
It depends on the degree... Look on the individual department websites -- they list Part and Full-time study.
Order? Bachelor's - honours - Master's - Doctorate... Although you sometimes don't need one before the other. Check the department websites.
Most Masters don't need honours; generally because honours gets you into a Doctorate. Again, it depends on the departments.
Yes, you can generally get a PhD without Masters; generally you need honours. Check the department websites.
Masters are graded like Bachelor's degrees (individual subject marks). Honours in Masters degrees (usually MAs -- MA(Hons)) are graded like Bachelor honours (first, second class). Check the websites.
Close but subtley different. In terms of academic standard I believe it goes something like this:
* Bachelor
* Postgraduate Diploma
* Masters (Coursework)
Like a Bachelor degree, but with more advanced and specialised subjects. No thesis.
* Bachelor (Hons) - Masters (Research)
The Bachelor (Hons) is for people coming straight out of studying. 15,000 word thesis. The Masters (both Coursework and Research) is for people coming from the industry. (Not sure of thesis size) The Honours/Masters ranking is kind of a hazy area. I think technically Honours is higher than Masters (or academically so), though it's generally accepted as the other way round. You could theoretically do Honours and then a Masters, but it's redundant.
The real purpose of Honours is to act as a bridging course into a PhD, to come straight from an undergrad degree. That's why I say I think technically Honours is ranked higher. I could be wrong though. In reality though, Masters is more valued because a) it's more "practical" and b) it takes longer. (I think it's two years.)
It's probably easier to think of Honours and Masters as apples and oranges, rather than as ranked and ordered.
Then:
Doctorate (I'm not sure what this is exactly - I think it's a higher ranked PG course that's just below a PhD, and still involves a research project, just not as long.)
PhD (It's four years long, 80,000 words)
* Bachelor
* Postgraduate Diploma
* Masters (Coursework)
Like a Bachelor degree, but with more advanced and specialised subjects. No thesis.
* Bachelor (Hons) - Masters (Research)
The Bachelor (Hons) is for people coming straight out of studying. 15,000 word thesis. The Masters (both Coursework and Research) is for people coming from the industry. (Not sure of thesis size) The Honours/Masters ranking is kind of a hazy area. I think technically Honours is higher than Masters (or academically so), though it's generally accepted as the other way round. You could theoretically do Honours and then a Masters, but it's redundant.
The real purpose of Honours is to act as a bridging course into a PhD, to come straight from an undergrad degree. That's why I say I think technically Honours is ranked higher. I could be wrong though. In reality though, Masters is more valued because a) it's more "practical" and b) it takes longer. (I think it's two years.)
It's probably easier to think of Honours and Masters as apples and oranges, rather than as ranked and ordered.
Then:
Doctorate (I'm not sure what this is exactly - I think it's a higher ranked PG course that's just below a PhD, and still involves a research project, just not as long.)
PhD (It's four years long, 80,000 words)
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xeuyrawp
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If we're going to play 'close but', I'll point out thatPhanatic said:
1. You left out honours in a Masters degree,
2. A PhD is a doctorate, hence the word 'Doctor'. A DLitt is not lower than a PhD. I don't know why you separated Doctorates with PhDs, not to mention the fact that you're talking about word-lengths -- a differing standard across the entire uni. I think you're assuming that we're studying humanities,
3. You said that Masters (Courseworks) have no theses; when you can opt to. Infact, most MA (Coursework) people at Macquarie do partake in the theses units and seminar. Whilst the thesis isn't the entirety of their course, MA students can do very large theses,
4. Honours are not 'ranked' higher at all. Just because our subject areas value honours doesn't mean it's true. In older unis, someone with an MA is valued higher than someone without. This is exemplified the most in Oxford, where MA gowns are worn by even Doctors who have matriculated from the uni's Bachelor's degree. Masters, traditionally, get the priority chairs over Doctors who don't have a masters,
5. You left out the fact that honours, in many areas, is not a course-work degree at all. Honours in some areas of our uni (and others) is just an award given for superior academic achievement,
6. Doing Masters after honours is not at all redundent. Stop assuming that they're doing similar subject areas as you. Honours in law (both the extra-year and the academic-award kind) is great, but I'd prefer someone with an LLM + LLB than someone with just an LLB(hons).
7. I suppose you forgot about Certificates and normal Diplomas.
Thanks
This information is not because I want to do it, I have always been hazy about the postgraduate system
Do you always have to do a doctrate before a PhD? I never hear people talking about them. EDIT - been answered
Yes honours and masters confused me. People I have talked to said that Masters was higher than Honours. But you generally do one or the other, but Masters is the higher, and you can do a 1 year honours and a 1 year masters on top of that. Confusing. Is it different for every course?
Four years for a PhD!! 80 000 words?!!??? EDIT- is a PhD 4 years for all subject areas?
This information is not because I want to do it, I have always been hazy about the postgraduate system
Do you always have to do a doctrate before a PhD? I never hear people talking about them. EDIT - been answered
Yes honours and masters confused me. People I have talked to said that Masters was higher than Honours. But you generally do one or the other, but Masters is the higher, and you can do a 1 year honours and a 1 year masters on top of that. Confusing. Is it different for every course?
Four years for a PhD!! 80 000 words?!!??? EDIT- is a PhD 4 years for all subject areas?
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xeuyrawp
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No, please ignore Phil.iambored said:
You *don't* have to do a 'doctorate' before a PhD, because PhD IS a doctorate!
It depends on one's criteria of 'higher', one's subject area, and what one want's to get out of university.
It depends on your area. For history, you do one or the other, ie BA - MA - PhD, or BA(Hons) - PhD. For law, you could do both, ie LLB(Hons) - LLM. A few areas, like law and engineering, value Masters.
Some masters are only a year, some are longer.
Yes, it is. LLMs are only a year, MAs in (Egyptology) are two years. I think most MAs are usually a year, some MScis are 2 years +... MBAs, I think are either a year or two -- I'd have to check...
Again, don't listen to Phil. It totally depends on your area. For example, History PhD theses range from 50 000 to 150 000 words, depending on what you're doing. Most History MA theses are actually 80 000 words. It just depends on what you're doing. Whilst they post up word-limits, they are very flexible. Same with your time-frame. Kim McKorkidale's doing a PhD in Egyptology; it's lasted 6 years full time, and her thesis is huge.
I'll just reiterate the 'doctorate' 'PhD' thing. A DPhil is a 'doctorate', but it's Oxford's version of a PhD. You can do a DLitt; which is generally a philological study, or a look at English. Anyway, my point is that PhDs are doctorates.
i want to end up with my masters in organisational psychology. from what i gather i have to first finish my hr degree, than complete a graduate diploma in psychology (i think its 2 yrs part time), than do my honours yr in psych (one yr full time), than i think i need a couple of yrs work experience, and than i can do my masters in org psych (2 yrs full time)
so basically it will take me 100 yrs and about 1 million dollars, but by the end of it ill be a master, sortof like yoda. i think its well worth the investment or should i say "its well worth the investment, i think"
so basically it will take me 100 yrs and about 1 million dollars, but by the end of it ill be a master, sortof like yoda. i think its well worth the investment or should i say "its well worth the investment, i think"
Cyan_phoeniX
Active Member
I'm pretty sure psych honours has a much bigger word limit than 15000 words.
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xeuyrawp
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They don't really have word limits. They post up limits online so you get an idea; word limits are negotiated with your supervisor.Cyan_phoeniX said:
Phil probably was told by his Media supervisor that he had to stick to X words, so he thinks that it's a static number. Maybe Media is far more rigid in its rules, but I know that most of the subjects I do have negotiated limits.
Yeah, completely forgot about that. I'm still not sure what that even is.PwarYuex said:
No, from what I've been told there's a distinction between an Academic doctorate (eg. awarded a PhD in Media) and a professional doctorate (eg. awarded a Doctorate of Clinical Psychology, Doctorate of Applied Linguistics - DAppLing) It is generally accepted that a professional Doctorate is one step bellow an academic one. I assume Doctor of Letters is the same as Doctor of Philosophy and all that, though I'm not sure how a Doctor of Letters is awarded (or how it's written.) A PhD is a doctorate, but not a Doctorate. The situation may be different in Oxford, but that's how the Australian system works.
I don't have the Postgrad handbook so I don't know. Probably. But I'm talking 'generally', not in every single situation. A thesis unit, to my understanding, is not the same as a thesis. A 'thesis' as far as I'm concerned is a major work that is worth half your course. I could be wrong.
Yes, this is true. Masters is ranked higher. I had bad information on that one.
At Mac it's not many areas, it's a minority of subjects that don't have an Honours year. Here's the list of them that have it: http://www.reg.mq.edu.au/Undergrad/UGAdmissions/Admissions/Honours/HonsMain.htm#Areas of Study.
I am making general statements about Mac's standards.
Again true. I am mainly going off my own experience.
As an interesting sidenote, earlier this year Mac changed most of their named Masters degrees to the MPhil. There are only a handful of other Masters offered. An MPhil goes for two years full time, with a minimum candidature of one year.
Yep. Was focusing on Postgrad really. But they are in there.
Length does vary from department to department. Most are max 100,000 (EFS excluding Stat, Education, Humanities, Law, SCMP except Philosophy, ELS except Chemisty, Phys Geography, Environment, Linguistics. The others are 80,000 words or 75. I'm getting my info from the "Higher Degree Research Guide for Candidates and Supervisors" which is sitting on my lap. I'm not sure where 150,000 words comes from. As for History Masters, the limits are Master (50,000), M(Hons) 80,000, MPhil (50,000), so most Masters should not be 80,000 according to the Master Degrees by Research Rules. Bear in mind they're the maximum, and the "Deans of Divisions have prescribed a that a thesis should be written as concisely as possible". Hence my supervisor told me I should aim for 80,000. As a sidenote, I think they brought in a minimum length this year as well. A thesis can be longer than the limit, but that should be rare, in "exceptional circumstances as approved by the Dean of Division".
Timewise, I have no idea how your friend has been doing a thesis for 6 years full time. The Government only supports a PhD student for four years full time or equivalent. I have had numerous people and letters stress this to me. After 48 months "Candidature expires and student not enrolled." Minimum candidature in a PhD is two years. I have never seen any document that says there can be extensions, other than "Extension of Candidature if approved limited to 3 x 4 monthly periods. After this a domestic student is not enrolled. International student may apply for further extension of candidature, and visa." How she's done 6 years full time escapes me.
It doesn't. My friend did BPsych (Hons) or whatever it's called, and did his thesis. 15,000 word limits.PwarYuex=Cyan_phoeniX said:
Word limits on theses are really *not* as flexible as people think they are.
As to Rob's responses, I think they were a little more narky than they needed to be. Yes, I've responded based on my own experiences, but from the sounds of it, so have you.
I am trying to provide general guidelines for postgrad at Mac. Of course there are going to be exceptions and variations. But in 80% of situations, what I've described is accurate.
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xeuyrawp
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The relationship with a MA(Hons) to an MA is exactly the same as a BA(Hons) to a BA; admission is right after the final marks are given, and a thesis/seminar/possible units are undertaken.Phanatic said:
A Doctor of Letters is a DLitt, Phil. I believe that the DLitt is only awarded as an honourary title at Macquarie. Not many Australian unis still graduate with DLitts -- it's usually a kind of recognition of contribution.
As you will see here, the university doesn't distinguish between your so-called professional Doctorates and the academic ones.
It's only the strange evolution that PhDs are the norm in most unis for theses.
A thesis is any academic essay.
Thanks for the link, but since the thread-creator didn't actually need Macquarie-specific information, I felt it necessary to talk about the entire tertiary system.
When does this take effect? I looked around the website, and I couldn't find any actual info on it. All the department websites had business as usual...
She's not my friend, she's a senior lecturer. She's been doing her thesis 6 years full time probably under a research-scholarship, like most ancient history students who are researching in the field. Since, like most PhD in history students, her Doctorate is not only part of her award, but part of University research, there must be a change. Kanawati's PhD took 6 years also, and I know that Ronika Powers' is in her 4th year, and will be going for several more.
Either all these people are lying, or you're mis-informed.
Again, all these people are lying, or you're mis-informed.
No, I have had no experience with higher-level education, I've only finished first-year. I'm basing my response on other people's experiences.
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That makes sense as an honarary degree.
No, on that same page are a range of distinctions:
(5) In the case of the degree of Doctor of
Philosophy the thesis must form a distinct
contribution to the knowledge of the subject and
afford evidence of coherence and of originality
shown either by the discovery of new facts or by the
exercise of independent critical power. Candidates
for the Professional Doctorates shall be required to
complete prescribed coursework and their thesis
must make a distinct contribution to the
improvement of professional practice or policy in
the field of study.
I was wrong about the naming system. But a PhD is different from and ranks higher than a professional doctorate in the "academic qualifications" scale.
I assume this year. The Higher Degree Research Guide for 2006 has the MPhil. When I could be bothered, I'll go through my old papers and find out.
Either all these people are lying, or you're mis-informed.
(3) The maximum period of candidature for the
degree of Doctor of Philosophy or Doctor of
Education shall be four years full-time or eight
years part-time provided that in special
circumstances the Higher Degree Research
Committee may grant an extension of the period.
A PhD with a Government Scholarship (the main ones) have a maximum period of three years.
Again I'm taking this from the PG Handbook and my Research Guide. If your lecturers are doing a thesis while teaching then it's possible they're doing their doctorate part time, or have some other arrangement with the University. They are exceptions to the rules however they do it, and are not the standard. A standard PhD is 4 years with a maximum of 100,000 words.Again, all these people are lying, or you're mis-informed.
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xeuyrawp
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I hope this post works. I'm using my brother's smartphone to post via our network, if there are multiple posts, you'll know why.
I never said that the people weren't doing them part time, because I can't be sure that they are or aren't. If the only provision for a person to go over four-years in a PhD is that they are doing it part time with 'special circumstances', then that's what they are obviously doing.
I'm about to go finish chrismasy stuff, so I'm not going to say any more.
If you some-how think I'm mis-informed or lying, you can always take it upon yourself to email the people directly. I will be sure to ask them tomorrow, we're all going to some random big Christmas party.
Yep, I think the Chancellor has one.Phanatic said:
Whilst they have a distinction in terms, I don't see how a PhD is 'higher' than a Professional Doctorate. That paragraph simply defines the difference in degrees, not the actual classing or grading of them...
Please show me how I'm lying or mis-informed.
I never said that the people weren't doing them part time, because I can't be sure that they are or aren't. If the only provision for a person to go over four-years in a PhD is that they are doing it part time with 'special circumstances', then that's what they are obviously doing.
All the PhD students that I've interacted with; three in modern history and eight or nine in ancient history, seem to be doing the same thing.
I'm about to go finish chrismasy stuff, so I'm not going to say any more.
If you some-how think I'm mis-informed or lying, you can always take it upon yourself to email the people directly. I will be sure to ask them tomorrow, we're all going to some random big Christmas party.
Well previously you were saying there was no distinction between a PhD and my "so-called professional doctorate". There certainly is a difference between them. I've been trying to find out more about professional doctorates, but from what I've looked at there's not much info, because they're newish.PwarYuex said:
The reason I've been saying a PhD is higher than a research doctorate is because last year my friend just missed out on a PhD but was offered a professional doctorate. His enquiries at the time told him a PhD is ranked higher academically, but I don't know his sources. It could be more along the lines of the way a Law Degree is considered a better degree than an Arts, or it could be a seperate higher award. An academic ranking might be different to a qualification ranking, which doesn't discriminate between the type of award.
The rank of Doctor is the same across the three types of Doctorates, but I believe there is an academic ranking within the qualification of "Doctor". This is taken from the DEST website:
Doctoral Awards
The Doctor of Philosophy, the Professional Doctorate and the Higher Doctorate are the three main categories of doctoral degrees awarded by Australian universities.
Doctor of Philosophy (PhD)
The Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degree in Australia is by thesis after research, normally requiring a minimum of three years of full-time postgraduate study following a Master or Honours Bachelor degree. Some universities and faculties require PhD candidates to complete some preliminary coursework before undertaking their doctoral research. See also Doctoral Degrees in the Australian Educational Qualifications section later in this Profile.
Professional Doctorate
The Professional Doctorate, though well-established in the USA and elsewhere, is relatively new in Australia. Some universities award Professional Doctorates for programs with an orientation towards advanced professional practice, typically in fields such as education (DEd), business administration (DBA), psychology (DPsych), and law where the degree is often a Doctor of Juridical Science (SJD) to distinguish it from the higher Doctor of Laws (LLD). The SJD should not be confused with the Juris Doctor (JD) offered by at least one Australian university. See [Post]Graduate Bachelor degrees above. Where institutions have not established Professional Doctoral programs, professionally oriented research may be accommodated in a traditional PhD program.
Higher Doctorates
Most universities in Australia award Higher Doctorates such as the Doctor of Letters (DLitt), Doctor of Science (DSc), Doctor of Laws, Doctor of Medicine (MD). Regulations for the award vary between institutions, and in many universities the award is restricted to scholars with a substantial connection with the institution. In most disciplines, Higher Doctorates are awarded on the basis of published or unpublished work considered constituting a significant original contribution to the field of study. However, Higher Doctorates may be awarded on the basis of a thesis, especially in medicine, dentistry and law. Comparatively few Higher Doctorates are awarded in Australia, the MD being by far the most frequently granted.
Are Masters by Coursework and Research the same? Though a Masters degree is awarded in both situations, are they given the same academic standing?
To answer the first point of this thread, check out this website:
http://aei.dest.gov.au/AEI/QualificationsRecognition/CountryEducationProfiles/CEP_Aus_EdQual.htm
Interesting to see Honours is not distinguished from a regular Bachelor's degree, though academically it's ranked higher.
You don't recognise your own quote. You were the one who told ME people were lying to me or I was misinformed. I just forgot to wrap it in quote tags.Please show me how I'm lying or mis-informed.
I never said that the people weren't doing them part time, because I can't be sure that they are or aren't. If the only provision for a person to go over four-years in a PhD is that they are doing it part time with 'special circumstances', then that's what they are obviously doing.
You also said that Kim McKorkidale's been doing a PhD for six years full time. From all the post-grad information I've come across, the absolute maximum you can take, with extensions, is five years. I'm very curious to know what arrangement they have (such arrangements may exist, but I have not seen them referred to ANYWHERE in the official Postgrad rules).
Again I didn't accuse you of that, you accused me of such, but at any rate, what they are doing does not follow a standard PhD structure.
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xeuyrawp
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I still don't see the difference between them beyond the fact that a PhD is usually totally thesis-based... :SPhanatic said:
What was this in?
That says nothing about ranking... The only thing that comes close is the archaic use of 'higher doctorate'.
In which area, Phil? You seem to be making good generalisations. I'll use the example of law: If I was in a firm, I'd much prefer an LLM to a MA(research). If I was a barrister, I'd much prefer an MA(research) to an LLM. That's just one field.
In academia, it's the same. Whilst research is a good area for an academic to be in, many areas need to be actually learnt at a master's level. Look at an Asian Language; no real research into an Asian language could be done at a Masters level right after one had gotten a Bachelor's degree... Doing higher-level units in such a case is beneficial. Remember that 'x is better than y' only works when you over-simplify from high-up on your bicycle.
I'm sure you think there's an answer to your hypothetical, but remember that people do different degrees for different reasons -- lest we all jump from Honours to PhDs simply because Media Snobs think that Masters are 'redundent'.
It's also interesting to note that one does not graduate twice; because it's part of the SAME degree. How could it be ranked higher? Silly question, Phil.To answer the first point of this thread, check out this website:
http://aei.dest.gov.au/AEI/QualificationsRecognition/CountryEducationProfiles/CEP_Aus_EdQual.htm
That's a good site, thanks.
Interesting to see Honours is not distinguished from a regular Bachelor's degree, though academically it's ranked higher.
It's also interesting to note that separate doctorates aren't listed on your site.
'Quote' is the verb, Phil. You mean 'quotation'.
Furthermore, I (correctly, since it was your error) thought that you were just using what I said against me in some attempt to use repetition.
Like I said, I could ask her tomorrow, if you'd like. I just looked notes that she gave out, where I noted that she was doing it full-time for six years. If the only availability for her to have been doing it for so long is that she's been doing it part time, I guess that's what she's been doing.
Maybe she said 'full time' in the sense that she's been excavating, researching, and teaching full-time.You'd have to take that up with them, I am in no way advocating or even saying with any certainty that they are doing it full-time. That's just the impression I got from her.
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lol ok.... too much information for me...
what is the minimum amount of years for any degree that you could get a PhD in? Hypothetically, the minimum to me seems like 3 years bachelor + 1 year honours + 2 years PhD = 6 years?
...let the argument continue for the sake of anyone who understands
what is the minimum amount of years for any degree that you could get a PhD in? Hypothetically, the minimum to me seems like 3 years bachelor + 1 year honours + 2 years PhD = 6 years?
...let the argument continue for the sake of anyone who understands
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xeuyrawp
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If your only aim was to get a PhD in the hastiest way possible, yes, 6 years.iambored said:
I'm sure people have gotten one faster; maybe some American unis with their random psych degrees, the Doctor of Divinity, Doctor of Chiropractic, Doctor of Dentistry, etc; but I've only occasionally seen those people with PhDs (as opposed to DDs, DCs, DDS, etc).
At least you'd be called 'Doctor'!
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xeuyrawp
Guest
I honestly would never do a PhD for the sake of doing one. Since your PhD thesis is a very defining moment in your academic career, I would only want to start one if I knew I had a lot to contribute. I still hear about Gae Callender's 'Egyptian Queens to the 17th Dynasty' thesis, and Marnie's 'Collingwood's Historical Education' thesis. Both these people contributed to themselves and to their fields, and their theses have been appreciated as hugely important.iambored said:
The whole idea of factory-processed degrees is very counter-productive to a good academic atmosphere.
That being said, I'm probably going to do a Masters -- look at all the awesome post-grad units. For me, it's about learning, not a race to being 'Dr. Rob'.
Lol, wth, if the argument above has been going around in circles like the last 2 posts then I know why it has been going for so long....
For anyone else reading this thread and possibly (I think you are) misreading my posts... I do not want a PhD, I would never do one for the sake of being called doctor. For me uni is about learning and applying it practically and not for personal gain (i.e. a 'doctor' title). I will do what I need to to best be able to apply my studies to my job and the people I will be working with.
For anyone else reading this thread and possibly (I think you are) misreading my posts... I do not want a PhD, I would never do one for the sake of being called doctor. For me uni is about learning and applying it practically and not for personal gain (i.e. a 'doctor' title). I will do what I need to to best be able to apply my studies to my job and the people I will be working with.
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