Ngyuen's Execution (2 Viewers)

[erawamai]

yes
i dont want it to happen, but at the same time i realise that it was a law in bali that was broken and that balinese laws & punishment should be applied. i dont believe that bali should be boycotted and stuff and seen as a bad place just because they followed their legal system which has been around for years

Fair enough. But do you accept that the death penality is a harsh penality? I tend to think the outcry will be more significant if the Bali 9 are executed.

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Did anyone catch the ABC show last night which showed the case of the German backpacker. She was caught in Singapore with drugs over the limit giving her a madatory death penalty. Due to some heavy pressure from the German government they saved her from the death penality. They argued that when the drugs were measured in their pure form the weight was below the limit for the madatory death penality.

 

[theone123]

poor fellow, what comes goes along, we gotta accept and embrace, the only things we can do in life.

 

[hipsta_jess]

Its interesting, given hangings or various other forms of the death penalty would occur every day somewhere in the world, it is only now that Australians have been implicated that we're up in arms and saying how wrong it is, when noone gave a toss before.

 

[katie_tully]

Oh they cared, 18 years ago when two Aussies hanged for the same offence. Australian Government didn't intervine then either, because it's not our place to go running and freeing silly little people who break the law overseas.

It's interesting that John Howard has put out a statement saying that if you're caught overseas with drugs, from now on you're on your own. I think he, like alot of the Australian public are fed up with these fools.

47% of Australians say he should hang, 7% are undecided. I think all the polls speak for themselves. It's just the media. As usual.

 

[erawamai]

Its interesting, given hangings or various other forms of the death penalty would occur every day somewhere in the world, it is only now that Australians have been implicated that we're up in arms and saying how wrong it is, when noone gave a toss before.

...um...whether you like it or not nationality still exists.

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Outcry forces Singapore media into the open

By Connie Levett Herald Correspondent in Singapore
December 2, 2005

TODAY'S execution of Nguyen Tuong Van has forced the mandatory death penalty issue onto the agenda in Singapore, with the local media unable to ignore the political lobbying, threatened trade boycotts and heated public debate in Australia.

In a rare break with the government line, the broadsheet Straits Times ran an article discussing the mandatory death penalty, despite numerous government statements that it was essential to protect citizens from drugs and to deter drug syndicates from basing themselves in Singapore.

Political reporter Ken Kwek wrote: "Perhaps in the months ahead, when emotions have died down, the mandatory death penalty - meaning its case-by-case, crime-by-crime application - should be reassessed by lawyers, officials and citizens alike."

"If that happens, we should all focus on the specific - how the mandatory death penalty might be removed for certain crimes - rather than fall for the broad-brush rhetoric calling for its complete and unconditional abolition."

A long-time resident of Singapore, who asked not to be named, said: "It shows in Singapore that within the established media there are some misgivings about this medieval form of punishment. I wouldn't see it as a signal from the Government, more a signal from the intelligentsia."

He cautioned against reading too much into the story, saying the article showed the death penalty was a safe topic for discussion, rather than signalling a shift in government policy.

 

[katie_tully]

I understand patriotism, nationality and all those other things...look, I think hanging is outdated, and I think it's slowly being replaced by, if you like, more humane methods. Let it be known though, that death by lethal injection isn't always quiet and pleasant, especially if the syrum has been cooled before hand.
And by no means am I an advocate for the death penalty. The amount of men and women in America alone, who have been exonerated just days before their scheduled execution is astounding. So is the number of innocent men who have been executed.
But it just annoys me slightly that Australian's are looking at Singapores law and are putting it below our law because they find it morally unacceptable.

 

[Generator]

Its interesting, given hangings or various other forms of the death penalty would occur every day somewhere in the world, it is only now that Australians have been implicated that we're up in arms and saying how wrong it is, when noone gave a toss before.

It's nice of you to assume that nobody cared prior to this moment.

Did anyone catch the ABC show last night which showed the case of the German backpacker. She was caught in Singapore with drugs over the limit giving her a madatory death penalty. Due to some heavy pressure from the German government they saved her from the death penality. They argued that when the drugs were measured in their pure form the weight was below the limit for the madatory death penality.

That case was reported in the Australian last week. It was an interesting article.

 

[Generator]

But it just annoys me slightly that Australian's are looking at Singapores law and are putting it below our law because they find it morally unacceptable.

What's wrong with being of the opinion that the penalty itself and the mandatory nature of it in cases such as this is inappropriate? We are we free and more than willing to criticise our own laws as being inadequate, but are we not able to make similar statements when are discussing issues that transcend jurisdictions?

 

[hipsta_jess]

Because by doing so, you're assuming that the morals and values Australian society has adopted and bred into us are 'better' than those of another country. Who is to say our way is the right way? Noone. Just as we can't say any other countries chosen punishment is injust or immoral, or wrong.

 

[katie_tully]

No Generator, I'm talking about it in reference to our reception when OUR laws, or our customs are criticised by foreigners, yet we're always quite happy to rally against the laws and customs of another country...when really, if we dont break their laws, their laws dont concern us.

Look what happens in Australia now when somebody speaks out against our laws or our customs. Automatically it is assumed that they are a terrorist, thus they're locked up. Honestly, go for your lives. If you think criticising the Singaporian government because you find their laws morally unacceptable is going to achieve anything, or if it helps you guys sleep at night, then go for it.

 

[Generator]

Katie and Jess -

Well, I'm of the opinion that there are limits, and I'm not going to just accept the justifications for unjust punishments (be it the death penalty or the stoning of a woman) for the simple fact that it is their way.

Human rights exist for all, no matter the nature of the legal jurisdiction, and I am more than willing to stand by such a statement, even if it suggests that I consider another nation-state's laws to be 'below' those of a more liberal jurisdiction.

 

[katie_tully]

Be thankful you're an Aussie then hey Generator If ever there was a time when people needed to stand back and appreciate their freedom, despite their disdain at our current government, that time would be now.

 

[erawamai]

Because by doing so, you're assuming that the morals and values Australian society has adopted and bred into us are 'better' than those of another country. Who is to say our way is the right way? Noone. Just as we can't say any other countries chosen punishment is injust or immoral, or wrong.

There is a line between cultural reletivism universality.

Do you believe the circumcision of females is a cultural practice that should be respected? Or some sharial law that states that women should be stoned to death for adultery or should be punished because their husband cheats on THEM.

Things need to be taken into context. You cannot proclaim all things as culturally protected. To suggest so would be to deny the universalty of human rights, many of which are rejected onthe basis that they are a 'western creation'.

 

[Generator]

Katie - Heh that's an interesting statement given the current Senate debate regarding the new anti-terror laws... However, that aside, I agree with your point.

 

[hipsta_jess]

There is a line between cultural reletivism universality. Do you believe the circumcision of females is a cultural practice that should be respected? Or some sharial law that states that women should be stoned to death for adultery or should be punished because their husband cheats on THEM

As I posted re: clitoridectimies earlier in this thread, they are somewhat morally questionable, but the fact remains they are accepted in certain cultures and we need to respect that. Yes, I agree (mainly because of the Australian values that have been prjected onto me for the past 20 years) that the practises are disgusting and barbaric (as I think of hanging), but that doesn't mean that it is wrong as such.

 

[katie_tully]

Haha, well...I use the term freedom very loosely...I probably meant, our right to speak out at injustices without fear of persecution...much.

 

[erawamai]

Be thankful you're an Aussie then hey Generator If ever there was a time when people needed to stand back and appreciate their freedom, despite their disdain at our current government, that time would be now.

Yes we are very lucky to live in Australia. The only reason that we live in such a free society is because we respect (i hope) freedoms and rights that other places do not.

Ask the person in the street and the vast majority would say that they are lucky to live in Australia and would live anywhere else.

 

[katie_tully]

I agree with Jess on this. Westerners have this habit of thinking that what is good for us, is necessarily good for everybody else. Of course we all think the actions of certain nations overseas is barbaric. Take for example the mutilation of female genitles in Africa. Many westerners have gone over there to stop the practices, because we see it as atrocious. What we fail to realise is that it is their customs, and despite the fact we disagree with it, exactly what basis do we have to intervene?

Many westerners also die by trying to promote freedom in such countries.

 

[katie_tully]

We are lucky to live in Australia. Compared to many other countries, even western countries, we have certain freedoms that we sometimes take for granted. That said, freedom of speech and basic human rights aren't privileges, they are rights.

 

[erawamai]

I agree with Jess on this. Westerners have this habit of thinking that what is good for us, is necessarily good for everybody else. Of course we all think the actions of certain nations overseas is barbaric. Take for example the mutilation of female genitles in Africa. Many westerners have gone over there to stop the practices, because we see it as atrocious. What we fail to realise is that it is their customs, and despite the fact we disagree with it, exactly what basis do we have to intervene?
Many westerners also die by trying to promote freedom in such countries.

...is giving these countries aid a form of western paternalism? I mean to argue about cultural respect is silly when cultures change. Fundemental cultural respect assumes that cultures are stagnent and cannot change. This is often the mistake made by those on the left with the Aboriginal population. This assumption is often wrong.

Also hanging is hardly Singapore specific. It's not really something that is culturally specific to Singapore that people can claim is protected from criticism because it is something we should culturally respect.

Singapore is a 'western' country in many ways. It should think about embracing western forms of justice. Something flagged by its national news paper today.