Muslim People in Australia (2 Viewers)

[HotShot]

Iraq is in Civil WAr

and a survey in australia finds we know very little about islam - interesting.

 

[veterandoggy]

... dont turn iraq into islam. a muslim dominated country, mayyybeee, depending on your idea of muslim.

i wonder how much john howard knows about islam

 

[sam04u]

I wouldn't question John Howard...
Since he's been in administration australia has been richer, more powerful, more multicultural and more fair.

Giving true meaning to the idea of; A fair go.
So i dont hate the man; even though he supported americas involvement in the war on Iraq; "which was unjust" it was in the best interest of australia... (Personally i don't like what happened, to many innocent iraqi's. But overall americas alliance is important to australia).

On another note, I don't find it surprising that australia as a whole knows little about Islam. Maybe that's why there are people who hate islam as a religion.

Otherwise im quite happy at the way this thread has progressed... it went from "confusion to hate, to racism, to religion, to understanding, and now to acceptance".

=_=!

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I'd like to know why Australians should in particular know about Islam? I mean personally I'm in favour of teaching such important things, but before we taught people about Islam I'd have a long list of things in front of it.

 

[HotShot]

I'd like to know why Australians should in particular know about Islam? I mean personally I'm in favour of teaching such important things, but before we taught people about Islam I'd have a long list of things in front of it.

um, apparently they didnt know anything about islam. You dont need 'teach' to learn something. sometimes its necessary to know some general knowledge it helps in many ways.

but surprisingly people didnt hate islam - those who didnt know about it- they tended to ignore it. which is interesting considering when you dont know somethin u tend not to like it.

gettin back to NTB its important to learn about ur surroundings, its like wats the point of learning another langauge? the benefits are not clear, but you will have cleaer advantage than the average person will you not? you will be able to make more informed decisons will you not? an d you will also have more experience as you opened yourself up have u not?

bah NTB get some in sense, ur attitude is we dont need to know anything but somehow we must understand whats going on.

 

[Omnidragon]

Didn't see your reply, NTB.

Anyway... there's a lot in your response and I'm not really prepared to get into some kind of confrontation with you. So I'll just make some comments on a few things I very selectively chose out of your response.

I completely accept your point that science, or what it does rather, is provisionally true. And I think that's a fair point! You also talked about science working its way towards curing diseases and enhancing technology. I'd have no reason to dispute that.

My view is that Muslims also concede to these points. However, what they have, which might make them different, is that they see Allah as working the wonders, whether it's hand-in-hand or independently.

I'm not sure if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim before. I for one have. In fact, this Muslim friend of mine went to the same high school as myself... he was schooled in a private boy's Jesuit school. You'd suspect he would have had a huge exposure to religion and science subjects (in fact he did physics and Chemistry for VCE), so he wouldn't be 'truly illogical' (as you said) by questioning how science can be proved via God. Yet he is 'truly illogical'.

He always tells us these stories about how Mohammud (or whatever way it's spelt) foresaw all these things about prostate cancer... and in doing so, he is trying to justify to us how science can be accomodated into his religion, rather than the other way around.

I'm not too hung up over these issues about why science appears, on the basis of testing, more 'true' than Allah. Like I said, I'm not trying to set some kind of principle or rule here and proclaim to the world that this is true, and other stuff is 'rhetoric'. Also, I did make the point that my example on gravity was 'stupid'. I was merely trying to draw an analogy to how I think Muslims view the world, and how we should be tolerant of that and encourage both sides of our society (Muslim and non-Muslim) to explore the other side's views.

For us to jump out at the Muslims and call them 'illogical' or whatever is just to incite more violence and hatred... when clearly, they do have basis for making their assertions, however silly it might seem to the westernised view of the world. Think postmodernism, and maybe things will begin to unravel and people would stop going out there trying to dictate the truth.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

bah NTB get some in sense, ur attitude is we dont need to know anything but somehow we must understand whats going on.

My attitude was that while I think there is a place for learning about Islam, I think there's alot of other things we're neglecting to teach that are far more important which we should sort out before we do so.

I'm not sure if you've ever spoken to a devout Muslim before. I for one have. In fact, this Muslim friend of mine went to the same high school as myself... he was schooled in a private boy's Jesuit school. You'd suspect he would have had a huge exposure to religion and science subjects (in fact he did physics and Chemistry for VCE), so he wouldn't be 'truly illogical' (as you said) by questioning how science can be proved via God. Yet he is 'truly illogical'.

Alot of religious people are exposed to science at the highschool/elementary level and can do quite good in it. However I think you'll find in general, most senior scientists are atheists.

Anyway the question of 'how can science be proved via God' is still truly illogical, see because what exactly is god? science is a methodology which we can explain, people can't explain the 'god' methodology of proving things without appealing to a supernatural power which is no explanation at all.

He always tells us these stories about how Mohammud (or whatever way it's spelt) foresaw all these things about prostate cancer... and in doing so, he is trying to justify to us how science can be accomodated into his religion, rather than the other way around.

Yea, I've found religious people really do want to accomodate science into their religion. Most of them respect science because of what it's done for us..

Anyway this idea of moulding science into religion is quite interesting, because it's never REALLY science... I mean they're willing to accept some scientific principles, however they have guidelines and limits (it all must fall within what is acceptable according to the koran.. or what they can construe as acceptable).

For us to jump out at the Muslims and call them 'illogical' or whatever is just to incite more violence and hatred... when clearly, they do have basis for making their assertions, however silly it might seem to the westernised view of the world.

They are often illogical, I am aware that this incites violent and hate however this is one of the conundrums that atheists face. On the one hand, if you fight religion... its supporters can take up arms for their god and become even more illogical... however if you do not fight it, it will go out of control and begin to step over other people. It's hard to strike up a balance.

Think postmodernism, and maybe things will begin to unravel and people would stop going out there trying to dictate the truth.

I don't want you to think I'm 'dictating the truth', I'm not saying that there definately isn't a God... I'm just saying that given the current evidence I am led to believe logically that there is no reason to believe there is a God. I have not seen a good counter-argument, the other people might disagree and they might even be right in their logic... who knows.. but I'm working with what I do know to form the truth as I find it.

 

[HotShot]

My attitude was that while I think there is a place for learning about Islam, I think there's alot of other things we're neglecting to teach that are far more important which we should sort out before we do so.

but somethings u shouldnt have to teach, like in the case islam its all over th eplace, terrorism, hajj, palestine etc. it openly out there in the media, newpapers libraries etc, you dont need to study islam. just watch the news and you will learn a bit about it.

especially if 1/6 of the people follow the religion, it could be valuable to learn about it.

 

[Zayd]

it openly out there in the media, newpapers libraries etc, you dont need to study islam. just watch the news and you will learn a bit about it.

Thats my point....
What you hear about Islam in the media is not what Islam teaches. For e.g. the media claims that "Jihad" means "HOLY WAR", yet it doesnt. The word "HOLY WAR" doesnt even exist in the Quran nor the Hadith (biography) of the prophet Muhammad (p.b.uh). Jihad simply means "Struggle and/or strive for the sake of Allah". Struggling for the sake of Allah can be achieved in a number of ways, for e.g. I wake up for Fajr (morning pray at 5 am), that is struggling for the sake of Allah because im getting out of sleep to pray. Which many consider a waste of time and not worthwhile. Hence, this is a form of jihad because im struggling for the sake Allah, when i could rather fulfill my sleep.

Learning about Islam through the media is the easy way out. If you really want to know what really Islam is all about, and why 1.5 billion people claim to be MUSLIMS, you need to go to authentic sources such as the Quran and the Hadith.
You can't jujdge a car by its looks, so you cant judge Islam by muslims and what the media claims. Just the way you cant judge Christianity by christians, hinduism by hindus, and Judaism by jews, etc

 

[davin]

i do agree with not-that-bright, both on that there are more important things to be learning, and that just because someone is trying to get science to match their religion that that doesn't mean suddenly their religion is on par with sceince as far as accuracy goes.

personally, i'm not going to attack people for believing in god and generally being religious. thats their own belief structure and its not being imposed on me. however, where i do draw the line is the attitude that religion is on equal or better footing with science when it comes to accuracy. its not. science is a constantly changing process to find the most accurate explanation. theories change over time as we learn more. religion, when it tries to deal with science, tries to make science back up its preestablished claims.

 

[Comrade nathan]

just watch the news and you will learn a bit about it.

The news?

http://www.pk71.com/freeyourmind/BoondocksTheNews.jpg

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Jihad simply means "Struggle and/or strive for the sake of Allah".

Ummmm whatever who cares what people think Jihad means? In the end I don't think they're THAT wrong because Jihad is often used to describe going to war for god.

Learning about Islam through the media is the easy way out. If you really want to know what really Islam is all about, and why 1.5 billion people claim to be MUSLIMS, you need to go to authentic sources such as the Quran and the Hadith.

Ok Zayd, I've explained it 1,000,000 times... judging Islam by the 'pure quran' is problematic. No one knows what the verses really mean and most everyone has a different interpretation... to me you are a muslim if you believe muhammed was the last prophet of god. Beyond that, what it means to be a muslim etc... we have to look at the muslims themselves.

 

[sam04u]

NTB, i don't know why you have blind faith in science.... have you ever been to the moon? most of science is made from observation... most of which you've never observed. So if something was written in a scientific journal 50 or 500 years ago, would you question its legitimacy? would you say "that book could have been lieing?".

I don't know if you feel special questioning religion... people have been doing it before you were born. Saying the Qur'an is innacurate or the Bible or even other religious books which are older then our ancestors, and "built" the world we have today. Is stupid.

Do you think we would have "society" without religion? Before religion people lived as animals, murder was seen as normal. People had no moral views, Religion built law. Without laws there would be no society, we would revert back to the stone ages. As i said before, without laws which govern society we would have no moral's, you probably would have been a peasant... communism/liberalism is a result of religion. Before religion no one "cared" about the poor. Your ancestors are peasants, if my assumptions that you are an Anglo-Saxon austalian is true. Therefore you would not be even able to write without religion as you would not have been educated, without social values being formed.
DO you think MAN? could have discovered religion? Men are animals... we are mammals we eat meat... our natural mentality is "fuck peace, survival is the key".

So you tell me how we would be able to come to such conclusions without our ancestors having contacted another planet or... a holy force to educate us on what is evil? Prior to religion survival above everythign else was normal.

Religion is THAT powerful... never treat religion vanely...

Don't you see? Are you listening to what im saying? The proof is here on earth for those who wish to acknowledge it.... Humans have had contact with something not on this earth, something which didn't need to survive...

I believe the Qu'ran - which acknowledges the Bible, the Torah and the Hindu and Buddhist teachings.
Muhammad (saas) was on earth, and had contact to God. Who created the Earth and everything in it. (i won't say universe, because i have no evidence... i might extend to say our solar system, or galaxy but no more assumptions).

Also, i don't disbelieve science... i love science. Some people say religion works against science. I say science is mans gift to himself, and we should embrace it entirely ALL aspects, not selectively choose what to follow.

Once again i want to EMPHASISE! Islam is NOT a religion which teaches HATE!
ISLAM is a PEACEFUL religion. ISLAMIC people are GOOD people with MORAL values. We are NOT terrorists, and the EXTREMISTS have reason to be doing what they are.

THESE people have LOST their HOMES, their FAMILIES, their RESPECT and their COUNTRY!?

Wouldn't you be pissed? Who do they blame? The U.S gives israel weapons to kill Muslims... they took palestine of the palestinians... unfairly....

If today russia took australia and threw us all in tasmania (west bank) and shot at us and broke our houses!? and the U.S gave them weapons! FREE!

Who would you blame? What would you do? If russians were in your country while you're STUCK, LOST in a corner of yours?

And then they change your countries name... and cripple any resistance and any buildings which would benefit your society? (schools, hospitals... you name it).

It seems as though the more i write the less is known.... >.< i don't know why im doing this... oh well... maybe someone will be dissillusioned... the media is just to powerful... the other day i couldn't find my toothbrush.. and wouldnt use my finger... because of something i heard on a movie "your finger has bacteria" or something... even though i knew it was clean... i washed it... the media is the most powerful weapon....

 

[davin]

sam04u, the difference is with science, thigns are based off many people making observations that can be retried or retested.
however, i can't exactly ask allah to confirm any given passage he said to muhammad. or well, technically, i suppose i should say...gabriel, i think. point is, religion lacks taht verification

not to mention, if you want to compare ages, science does predate most modern religions.

 

[banco55]

Ummmm whatever who cares what people think Jihad means? In the end I don't think they're THAT wrong because Jihad is often used to describe going to war for god.



Ok Zayd, I've explained it 1,000,000 times... judging Islam by the 'pure quran' is problematic. No one knows what the verses really mean and most everyone has a different interpretation... to me you are a muslim if you believe muhammed was the last prophet of god. Beyond that, what it means to be a muslim etc... we have to look at the muslims themselves.

Well said. If someone knew nothing about christians and just read the bible they'd probably have a very inaccurate picture of how christians live today and what they believe. Whether muslims today are adhering to the koran or misinterpreting it is a matter for them and their theologians. How muslims actually behave in practice is what most concerns non-muslims. For example I've heard people argue that nowhere in the koran does it say that women should cover themselves. Whether it does or does not many muslims believe that pious women should wear a hijab. The old excuse of the communists used to be that USSR etc. misinterpreted or perverted marx. Yet that was of little comfort to the millions that lived under Communist dictatorships.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

NTB, i don't know why you have blind faith in science.... have you ever been to the moon? most of science is made from observation... most of which you've never observed.

I don't have to go to the moon to observe it, I can make observations based on what I do know... how do you think nasa knew (roughly) about how the moon was comprised before they landed on it? Another thing is that I don't have to observe everything because there's other people willing to do that for me and tell me their observations... now you're going to come back and say 'well maybe they're lying!' but the defensive mechanism against that in science, is that matters are looked into and verified by many independant lines of inquiry... what Astronauts found on the moon fell into place with what scientists had been theorising, there have been no better theories that have come into place and been independantly verified from various lines of inquiry... so I accept what I have been told to be the facts as we know them.

So if something was written in a scientific journal 50 or 500 years ago, would you question its legitimacy? would you say "that book could have been lieing?

There's a big difference between 'lying' and not getting something right... to lie means that you know you're not being truthful... MOST mistakes in science I believe are made by people who think they have the right idea. Anyway, yea I would question it... I question current science too... Don't think I'm not sceptical about matters of science because I am, just that there are these separate lines of inquiry comming to the same answer... you have to say there's a reason for that.

I don't know if you feel special questioning religion... people have been doing it before you were born.

Well people have been practicing your religion before you were born but I bet it still makes you feel special, right? I could go on about this concept of 'special', but I'm pretty sure this was just a really lame ad hom attack.

Saying the Qur'an is innacurate or the Bible or even other religious books which are older then our ancestors, and "built" the world we have today. Is stupid.

That seems silly... for many reasons, but the one which I chuckled at was this:
You say that it's stupid to say that other religious books are inaccurate? Do you realise that saying that the Qur'an is accurate directly makes many other religious texts inaccurate? Did you just call yourself stupid?

Do you think we would have "society" without religion? Before religion people lived as animals, murder was seen as normal. People had no moral views, Religion built law.

Prove to me that religion birthed moral values... you see people actually have a much better answer that seems to fit all the facts in a naturalistic way (which I personally find much better). See, our morals come from our genes... being a social creature, caring about the lives of others, meant that the species as a whole would live longer than a species that did not.

See, then we look around the world... and see that all religions have common morals to them, and we go 'wait a minute, maybe religion didn't create the morals in religion... maybe the morals expressed by religions were already there... and religions just expressed them'.

Can you see my point?

Without laws there would be no society, we would revert back to the stone ages.

There was a moral structure in the stone age, it's also unclear whether people were barbarians going around killing each other... we actually have evidence to support the idea i covered earlier in this respect, there was a bone found with a fracture (very old bone I think it actually goes back to like homoerectus ) which would have made the creature unable to walk for several months... however there were other signs which showed that it had lived for years after the fracture. This means that there must have been something caring for it...

So yea, we have no evidence that people were really worse in the stone ages than they are now... at least by our basic moral standards.

As i said before, without laws which govern society we would have no moral's, you probably would have been a peasant... communism/liberalism is a result of religion.

Actually I think you'll find that it was as the power of the religion/king in england died out... and the power of the church/king in france died out... that liberalism and democracy was born.

Your ancestors are peasants, if my assumptions that you are an Anglo-Saxon austalian is true. Therefore you would not be even able to write without religion as you would not have been educated, without social values being formed.

See you're assuming that social values were formed by the religion, now while I'm willing to say that good things have come from religion in past times in this respect, now it is pushing us back so it's not really relevant to the conversation.
I mean, yes, religion did help act as a way of somewhat helping out for poor, but it was also used to exploit the poor - until masses of humans (which you have really quite a low view of) stood up for themselves.

DO you think MAN? could have discovered religion? Men are animals... we are mammals we eat meat... our natural mentality is "fuck peace, survival is the key".

It actually makes alot of sense than man invented religion. As you pointed out, we are animals... we like to eat meat... and we also have this attitude of 'survival is the key' which is really built into our genes (of course, peace can lead to survival... a species with a higher level of consciousness can work this out, and work together for a greater benefit for the whole species, and survive better).

Anyway, it makes alot of sense that man invented religion... I picture it this way,

There's this ape man and he is a creator by his nature, he creates tools, now one day he looks out on the world around him from his cave... and he goes 'well I created this spear... who created all of that?' we're just prone to see things as creations because we're creative creatures... now he can only think of one creature that he knows of that can create, so he imagines that it must be some gigantic, magical form of himself (a god).

He then takes another look around, he has such a good life... he can get water from the local river, he has a constant supply of banannas... he's really happy here - so he concludes, well life here's so good for me, it must have been MADE for me! Which is essentially ridiculous, it's like the bananna on the bananna tree going 'hmmm this is pretty good, I'm attached to this tree feeding me nutrients, I'm getting heaps of sunlight, this world must have been MADE for me!'.

Anyway... I could continue, using more boring examples, but I wont (too lazy). I hope you see however that the idea of man creating religion actually makes alot of sense.

So you tell me how we would be able to come to such conclusions without our ancestors having contacted another planet or... a holy force to educate us on what is evil? Prior to religion survival above everythign else was normal.

Survival above everything else still is normal, as I explained... creatures that work together, care about each other, tend to survive better than ones that will leave their fellow creature for dead (at least in our situation... as large mammals that don't breed too much).

Religion is THAT powerful... never treat religion vanely...

Religion is powerful, but you know what's more powerful? the will of man. You can see it with the example of the christian church, they've lost all their power and now they're a shepard that is being led around by its sheep. One day the people of the middle east will liberate themselves from their religious oppressors, probably through religion, however from that they will open themselves up to liberalisation and being the same process that white christians have been going through for the past 100-200 years.

Don't you see? Are you listening to what im saying? The proof is here on earth for those who wish to acknowledge it.... Humans have had contact with something not on this earth, something which didn't need to survive...

I obviously am - I refute EVERY SINGLE ONE of your points, very coherantly, then you don't even quote them or directly reply to them. It seems that you are the one that does not bother listening to me. As for the whole 'survival' argument, i've already answered that.

I believe the Qu'ran - which acknowledges the Bible, the Torah and the Hindu and Buddhist teachings.

Yes it acknowledges them, but ultimately disagrees with them on several points... I mean the bible acknowledges the torah etc too...

Also, i don't disbelieve science... i love science. Some people say religion works against science. I say science is mans gift to himself, and we should embrace it entirely ALL aspects, not selectively choose what to follow.

Religion does work against science because people often constrict science to their religion, if something science says doesn't fit with their religion (re: evolution) they'll dismiss it, but something which supports it (even if it's flimsy pseudoscience... re: intelligent design) they'll take it up eagerly.

You say you don't do this tho, so that's awesome.

Once again i want to EMPHASISE! Islam is NOT a religion which teaches HATE!
ISLAM is a PEACEFUL religion. ISLAMIC people are GOOD people with MORAL values. We are NOT terrorists, and the EXTREMISTS have reason to be doing what they are.

Islam is what its people make of it... I think Islam is an extremely conservative religion which is holding its people back and leading to alot of unhappiness. I don't think you're terrorists tho... lol

HESE people have LOST their HOMES, their FAMILIES, their RESPECT and their COUNTRY!?

Wouldn't you be pissed? Who do they blame? The U.S gives israel weapons to kill Muslims... they took palestine of the palestinians... unfairly....

Yea I agree, they have reasons to be pissed, some of them I support, however there are others whoms ultimate goals are not good for the people of the middle east. Tho there are some that are really fighting for good, they're the good guys.

Wouldn't you be pissed? Who do they blame? The U.S gives israel weapons to kill Muslims... they took palestine of the palestinians... unfairly....

If today russia took australia and threw us all in tasmania (west bank) and shot at us and broke our houses!? and the U.S gave them weapons! FREE!

Who would you blame? What would you do? If russians were in your country while you're STUCK, LOST in a corner of yours?

And then they change your countries name... and cripple any resistance and any buildings which would benefit your society? (schools, hospitals... you name it).

Your information about the conflict is pretty bias, however in the situation you presented I would be pretty pissed.

because of something i heard on a movie "your finger has bacteria" or something... even though i knew it was clean... i washed it... the media is the most powerful weapon....

Hands have alot of bacteria, but so does your mouth.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

You said that much better than me with the christian example, they might understand that

For example, christians are very anti-gay marriage... however at the same time wont stone their women to death! WTF?!

 

[Comrade nathan]

Do you think we would have "society" without religion? Before religion people lived as animals, murder was seen as normal. People had no moral views, Religion built law. Without laws there would be no society, we would revert back to the stone ages. As i said before, without laws which govern society we would have no moral's, you probably would have been a peasant... communism/liberalism is a result of religion. Before religion no one "cared" about the poor. Your ancestors are peasants, if my assumptions that you are an Anglo-Saxon austalian is true. Therefore you would not be even able to write without religion as you would not have been educated, without social values being formed.
DO you think MAN? could have discovered religion? Men are animals... we are mammals we eat meat... our natural mentality is "fuck peace, survival is the key".

John Lock in his book Concerning Human Understanding (I think, i may be wrong but it is by a early author who criticised innate ideas) mentions about a group of people who had no religion, he mentions no "animal like" society.

But still your statement does not makes sense. That would mean that every religion is then valid, that they are all true. If religion is the thing that holds society together, then that means that there is a outside influence. So the religions from paganism to animism are true because they existed in societies that had laws and regulations. However this is contradictory and you will find that your statement is untrue.

I think you are looking at from a idealist perspective. Like the belief that since ideas exist and matter exists then ideas exist before matter. When the reality is that ideas exist because of matter. Just like the reality is while society exists religion exists.

I think you will find that religion came into existance only through development of technology which lead to the development of class. Religion is a reaction to society, not the other way around.

Also you statment is untrue for such societies where the rulling groups reject religion and the mass participation also reject religion. A good example of this would Cuba and the USSR.

 

[davin]

On the education thing....religion has often times tried to keep the masses uneducated for their benefit....biggest example was catholic church, which refused to let the bible be printed in a language that most people could read.

 

[HotShot]

it openly out there in the media, newpapers libraries etc, you dont need to study islam. just watch the news and you will learn a bit about it.

Thats my point....
What you hear about Islam in the media is not what Islam teaches. For e.g. the media claims that "Jihad" means "HOLY WAR", yet it doesnt. The word "HOLY WAR" doesnt even exist in the Quran nor the Hadith (biography) of the prophet Muhammad (p.b.uh). Jihad simply means "Struggle and/or strive for the sake of Allah". Struggling for the sake of Allah can be achieved in a number of ways, for e.g. I wake up for Fajr (morning pray at 5 am), that is struggling for the sake of Allah because im getting out of sleep to pray. Which many consider a waste of time and not worthwhile. Hence, this is a form of jihad because im struggling for the sake Allah, when i could rather fulfill my sleep.

Learning about Islam through the media is the easy way out. If you really want to know what really Islam is all about, and why 1.5 billion people claim to be MUSLIMS, you need to go to authentic sources such as the Quran and the Hadith.
You can't jujdge a car by its looks, so you cant judge Islam by muslims and what the media claims. Just the way you cant judge Christianity by christians, hinduism by hindus, and Judaism by jews, etc

um but u still learn a bit from the media, might not be whole facts, but a little. so saying that u cant learn islam is bullshit. its out there, u dont need do a course on it..

as for important things? they are teaching that at school? if u r talking about science unless u want to become a scientists its pretty useless. who cares how the world works? does it have an impact on ur life, especially if a scientist is waiting out there to help u?

there is nothing more important purely subjective. in that way everything is important and u should know everything or at least try to.