Minoans: Gender of the Ruler? (1 Viewer)

[Paroissien]

All I need is points.
I've got prominence of women in frescoes, proportions of throne, decoration of throne room and the prominence of female deities, although that doesn't prove much about the gender of the ruler in my opinion.
Any more?

 

[silvermoon]

its not that it propves the gender of the ruler - more that it throws into question the immediate assumption that it was male or female:
- Susan Evasdaughter theory of matriarchy (however, you need to know that she mixed up some points in her theory - area in Levant etc. at this time follwed a pattern of matrilinial descent, which she says establishs a matriarchy)
- Herdotus says that it was ruled by a king known as Minos - though, of course, Herdotus lived way after the civilisation and so really doesnt know what hes talking about radadada

 

[angelduck]

You must also remember that there is a debate about whether there is an actual ruler. We dont know, is it just a myth?? - remember Evan's pet theory, the throne room may come from Mycenaean times

 

[Paroissien]

Thanks for that, as I usually ignore that part, but obviously I shouldn't. You got any more points on that?

 

[silvermoon]

if you go down the "was there a ruler at all" line of argument it opens up into a far wider range of topics, the most pertinent being the role of religion in society. quite a few historians (most notably nanno marinatos) think that Crete may have been ruled by some form of religious order - though there is much debate on what form this "government" may have taken. It also opens up the debate on the social order: which is probably best summed up by Pendlebury: "Although it is clear...[that] an order does exist...It is impossible to say what sort of social order existed on Minoan Crete"

 

[angelduck]

and Brian Brennan believes that Minnoan society didnt have a ruler, rayther the officials/nobles who basically ruled it - evidence, Knossos was an adminostration centre, lots of Linear A. umm, let me find my notes.....
Callender also says that there might not have been a king, rather an aristocrasy of ruling officials

*there have been no rich graves found = possibility that not ruler. Also, the 'King' might have come from Mycenanean times, where there is definitive evidence for a king

 

[lilems13]

Thucydides (however you spell it) talked about a thalosocrassy - headed by a male ruler
Herodotus - also talked about a male ruler
Homer - Wrote about Minos - male ruler

All these people came long after the actual civilisation. Also, Homer was a poet - wrote that Crete had 90 cities, which is probably not true so everything he writes shouldnt be taken as fact. Perhaps the concept of Minos the king was just to please the Greeks?

Male ruler - the seal stone with the man standing with a spear over a palace? Debatable whether he was a god/priest/ruler

Idea that perhaps rulership was divided into two - as demonstrated by architecture of palaces. Female religious ruler- throne rooms - female throne, sphinxes etc. /Male King doing administrative role - heading number of other princes in other palaces as demonstrated by regal regalia at Mallia.

Dominance of females in art - could be discredited through the idea that they were there as entertainment/as a spectacle - as is very much so in modern times? Therefore, less chance of a matriachical society/female ruler.

ETA: Also the tomb - had remains of a short/well built male in it buried alone? Could this have been male ruler? Probably not - thought to have been a mycenean burial.

I dont know if much of that makes sense, but I guess just think outside the square a bit..

 

[A2RAYA]

its not that it propves the gender of the ruler - more that it throws into question the immediate assumption that it was male or female:
- Susan Evasdaughter theory of matriarchy (however, you need to know that she mixed up some points in her theory - area in Levant etc. at this time follwed a pattern of matrilinial descent, which she says establishs a matriarchy)
- Herdotus says that it was ruled by a king known as Minos - though, of course, Herdotus lived way after the civilisation and so really doesnt know what hes talking about radadada

so did homer...then again he lived after tht time too but he also wrote that "king minos......ruled for 9 years..."

homer! homer! homer!

 

[icedcoffee123]

when we learnt about minos i had no idea that he might not have existed unitl our teacher told us i was totaly blown out of the water , then we did an essay inclass essay about the importance of minoan women in mioan society

 

[leandroaliaj]

The minoan civilization was ruled by king Minos, hence "Minoan" civilization, "Mino-taur" etc.. They just had a lot of female deities and they respected women a lot. Most high priests were supposed to be female. Actually i havent heared of any male high priest but this doesnt mean they didnt exist.

But this shouldnt even be in the Greek forums cause the only thing the Minoans and the Greek have in common is the island of Crete.

 

[angelduck]

umm, "Minoan society" is studied as a Greek topic, and as Crete is an island of Greece, and Minoans are from Crete (as far as we are concerned with in the HSC) that makes them greek, so they should be in the greek forum.....

 

[leandroaliaj]

Well im not from your university so i dont know how you classify civilizations there, but the Minoan civilization is Pelasgian (pre-Greek) and not Greek. It's just a coincidence that Crete is part of today's Greece.

Anyway...

 

[angelduck]

um, i go to Newcastle uni, i dont do ancient there though, im talkin bout in HSC - its studied as a Greek society

 

[wrong_turn]

i advise people to read about it her.

question of the ruler

 

[angelduck]

nice work! A link and everything
*proud grin* - damn im gald ur an honorary mafia member!

 

[wrong_turn]

me too. to the land of penguins and beyond!
to the bee moblie
you mean the ___wagon.
yes that.

 

[angelduck]

wtf? Whatever ur on, i want some

 

[wrong_turn]

you're a year too early duck! ^^

 

[angelduck]

wot?
*confuzzled look*
^look wot u did! U confused me! (Not that thats overly hard or anything...)

 

[lachlanwizard]

There are two ways you can go:

Yes, there was a ruler, in the sense of a united state under one leader

Or

The Throne room was the residual area of the leader or chief (or religious ruler) of the palace at Knossos.

If we wish to precede with one(Two is just far too open ended, read some Castleden) then we have a few points of discussion regarding the gender of the ruler.

Shape of Throne: This one is the most common question posed regarding the gender of the ruler. "It is woman sized" they all say. I think this is best refuted by one simple comment; If i were the leader of a rich nation, and i had to sit on a stone throne often, then i would damn well want a cushion to sit on, pretty much rendering the size of the seat non-important.

Secondly, the ideal of Griffons being associated with females is to the best of our knowledge a Mycenean custom and is a rather weak point, as the depth of influence Mycenean culture had is really unknown. So we speculate this point.

The ideal of a mother goddess is so common and saturated in ancient culture and often has so little to do with the organisation of the ruling class it is hardly worth mentioning here, but again, speculation.

Take the writings of ancient writers with a grain of salt, as they are most likely biased by the ideal of a male ruler, and written in hindsight. But still, not using what is *somewhat credible* information is silly, and it wouldnt harm if you used it to make suggestions and not clear distinctions.

Other than this information, read lilems13's post, i just listed things not included and hopefully form your opinions regarding rulership.