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Merchant banking (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Left-ism
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CrashOveride
Active Member
gm, you recommended to go with the App Fin double degree (which actually is the most popular double degree at MAQ). I'm currently enrolled in the actuarial/science (1st year) with the option to choose either computing or mathematics as a science major. I've read that ppl who are involved in the mathematical side of finance, so actuaries and quants included, do a lot of C++ programming etc. Do you think its wise to actually do the computing major (where i will learn C++) instead of going with the popular App Fin/actuary double ?
because a lot of ppl here interested and good at maths and want to make money from their talents. as i have said before, quant jobs are overrated. its unlikely any of us will get a position as there is no demand. maybe if ur lucky enought ull get a place in managed fund ( i think challenger financial services was advertising) and in a bank (eg macquarie quant analysis?).
my interests are mostly research-driven as i am more interested in the mathematical side. thats y i like to read up on papers related to real option analysis and data mining. i think real option analysis is big as it applies the binomial options pricing model to corporate finance. so the 2 can be related. the other interests are more academic - eg water rights pricing - but i think they have more importance than business in some sense as they have implications on public policy,ie, a social benefit.
comm/law is not the only degree for ib. actuaries have also moved into ib (lots of fiaas overseas).
im sensing that this could be the first signs of a shift in corporate finance - using more maths. i think actuaries stand the most to benefit as they got the maths and business skills to succeed.
in response to earlier posts:
i think finance & stats is superior to econometrics as u get a better feel for the techniques (getting decent proofs, more sophisticated software, etc). a better understanding will also make you a better programmer as models need to be constantly modified.
i thought IB was more M&A work and trading was like equity derivatives, interest rate derivatives trading, etc.
insurance and banking are converging as banks are tending to becoming more like financial services conglomerates, eg us - citigroup, australia - westpac, cba, etc. i think the skills are easy transportable , esp the math skills, cz one of the major challenges facing banks (and their insurance businesses) is adequate capital management (with Basel 2 and all). these regulatory changes will requires banks to draw upon the skills of actuaries and other insurance ppl too.
beside SIA, there is CFA and CAIA (american). they are supposedly good if u wanna work overseas (i guess the us). for more info, conact the unsw school of banking and finance - one of the snr lectuerers is on the team responsible for the curriculum of the CAIA (CAIA is an offshoot of CFA).
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for myself, i dont think i can handle the work and crap marks from actuarial atm. i intend to apply for positions at banks and insurance companies and ill just see what happens. but i hope that when i graduate, i will have left with a more mature and sophisticated business sense and mathematical ability which i believe will be good preparation for the actuarial exams and hopefully Fellow. altho im not thinking of doing actuarial atm, i still recognise it in general as being the most prestigious and recognised profession in business.
my interests are mostly research-driven as i am more interested in the mathematical side. thats y i like to read up on papers related to real option analysis and data mining. i think real option analysis is big as it applies the binomial options pricing model to corporate finance. so the 2 can be related. the other interests are more academic - eg water rights pricing - but i think they have more importance than business in some sense as they have implications on public policy,ie, a social benefit.
comm/law is not the only degree for ib. actuaries have also moved into ib (lots of fiaas overseas).
im sensing that this could be the first signs of a shift in corporate finance - using more maths. i think actuaries stand the most to benefit as they got the maths and business skills to succeed.
in response to earlier posts:
i think finance & stats is superior to econometrics as u get a better feel for the techniques (getting decent proofs, more sophisticated software, etc). a better understanding will also make you a better programmer as models need to be constantly modified.
i thought IB was more M&A work and trading was like equity derivatives, interest rate derivatives trading, etc.
insurance and banking are converging as banks are tending to becoming more like financial services conglomerates, eg us - citigroup, australia - westpac, cba, etc. i think the skills are easy transportable , esp the math skills, cz one of the major challenges facing banks (and their insurance businesses) is adequate capital management (with Basel 2 and all). these regulatory changes will requires banks to draw upon the skills of actuaries and other insurance ppl too.
beside SIA, there is CFA and CAIA (american). they are supposedly good if u wanna work overseas (i guess the us). for more info, conact the unsw school of banking and finance - one of the snr lectuerers is on the team responsible for the curriculum of the CAIA (CAIA is an offshoot of CFA).
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for myself, i dont think i can handle the work and crap marks from actuarial atm. i intend to apply for positions at banks and insurance companies and ill just see what happens. but i hope that when i graduate, i will have left with a more mature and sophisticated business sense and mathematical ability which i believe will be good preparation for the actuarial exams and hopefully Fellow. altho im not thinking of doing actuarial atm, i still recognise it in general as being the most prestigious and recognised profession in business.
CrashOveride
Active Member
If, "in general as being the most prestigious and recognised profession in business."
how come it seems to pay much less than these other fields we have discussed. According to the AIAA site (http://www.actuaries.asn.au/) new FIAAs can expect between 90-110K and as u get to be a senior actuary some have salaries of around 200k.
how come it seems to pay much less than these other fields we have discussed. According to the AIAA site (http://www.actuaries.asn.au/) new FIAAs can expect between 90-110K and as u get to be a senior actuary some have salaries of around 200k.
too many people here are concerned about salaries....
just shut the fuck up about salaries... u go into any career and if ur good at it u can earn as much as the other.... its just that... to get into investment banking u already have to be sooo good.... to get into accounting u can be a sweet talker with a monkey brain and become a partner....
if u dunt have an interest in finance or maths then just dunt try for investment banking, its already soooo damn hard, just give it up and go for somethign that u know ull be good in...
for the last time, many many many actuaries dunt go into acturial roles, the best of the best go into wonderfulyl lavish finance roles and the even greater ones are smart enough to establish their own firms and earn millions a few years after graduating.... it all depends on u.... hu u are, what ur capable of what u want from ur job...
accounting is great if u like mediocre finance like analysing financial reports and improving company profits by millions of dollars - that is exciting as well, its a great career a great lifestyle.... btu if u have the desire to have that IB lifestlye, to trade and be in the know on all that investment company jargon... then only u go for investment banking...
u have to know ur place in the world we live in... u cant just go into wherever u feel like by being hu u are... u can change but get a reality check and realise what IB requires.... its the hardest career to get into, thats y its the best "rewarding" if u want in for the lifestyle and the money, thats nto gonan be enough... u gotta have a real deal interest in finance.... HDs!!!
i dno if i wanna do IB, i love finance, but i always love commerce in general... so im planning to go through the core units, and get a feel for my strenths, my interests and go from there...
i think the newbies here should do the same...
just shut the fuck up about salaries... u go into any career and if ur good at it u can earn as much as the other.... its just that... to get into investment banking u already have to be sooo good.... to get into accounting u can be a sweet talker with a monkey brain and become a partner....
if u dunt have an interest in finance or maths then just dunt try for investment banking, its already soooo damn hard, just give it up and go for somethign that u know ull be good in...
for the last time, many many many actuaries dunt go into acturial roles, the best of the best go into wonderfulyl lavish finance roles and the even greater ones are smart enough to establish their own firms and earn millions a few years after graduating.... it all depends on u.... hu u are, what ur capable of what u want from ur job...
accounting is great if u like mediocre finance like analysing financial reports and improving company profits by millions of dollars - that is exciting as well, its a great career a great lifestyle.... btu if u have the desire to have that IB lifestlye, to trade and be in the know on all that investment company jargon... then only u go for investment banking...
u have to know ur place in the world we live in... u cant just go into wherever u feel like by being hu u are... u can change but get a reality check and realise what IB requires.... its the hardest career to get into, thats y its the best "rewarding" if u want in for the lifestyle and the money, thats nto gonan be enough... u gotta have a real deal interest in finance.... HDs!!!
i dno if i wanna do IB, i love finance, but i always love commerce in general... so im planning to go through the core units, and get a feel for my strenths, my interests and go from there...
i think the newbies here should do the same...
i dno maybe im gettin gcarried away, but i just have this impression that people are made for IB.. most just dunt cut it because they just dunt have that same level of fascination with finance and the abilities with maths and understanding commerce...
the most daunting part of IB is the networking - u know those people that manipulate u - have black belts in lying and deciept - they are the ones that control the IB wrold... they are the ones that always will - there is no place for nice guys in this job...
the best job for me woudl be in consulting - i just wanna help people genuinyl and get paid a shit load for it... thats the reason i did soft. eng. i dunt wanna go into maintence or error checking, i wanna go more into development customised solutions... i just did the commerce degree cuz i love commerce.... and its damn popular right now...
the most daunting part of IB is the networking - u know those people that manipulate u - have black belts in lying and deciept - they are the ones that control the IB wrold... they are the ones that always will - there is no place for nice guys in this job...
the best job for me woudl be in consulting - i just wanna help people genuinyl and get paid a shit load for it... thats the reason i did soft. eng. i dunt wanna go into maintence or error checking, i wanna go more into development customised solutions... i just did the commerce degree cuz i love commerce.... and its damn popular right now...
Arkad
Member
I don't agree with you on that point. To me, investment bankers are normally the nice guys who everyone loves to be with. You don't become liked by lying, you get there by being interested in other people. Networking is simply making a network of friends who will help you along your career or life, you get this network by helping them along too, its mutualism and win-win. Read Dale Carnegies' books if you're interested in skills in this area.aditya said:
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D
dude431
Guest
What gm said sums it up well, something along the lines of: if you love what you're doing, you'll excel at it.
The real world isn't quite as simple as that.
But generally, yes, if you love what you're doing at uni and beyond (and not doing a line of work for the potential high salary), then you're likely to excel in your career and earn much more than what the "average" get.
Actuaries can actually earn much more than that, but maybe not in Australia. The figures quoted earlier for quants were from financial institutions outside Australia, if I remember correctly (this thread is long). Further, I don't think they are average salaries for quants either.
The real world isn't quite as simple as that.
But generally, yes, if you love what you're doing at uni and beyond (and not doing a line of work for the potential high salary), then you're likely to excel in your career and earn much more than what the "average" get.
Actuaries can actually earn much more than that, but maybe not in Australia. The figures quoted earlier for quants were from financial institutions outside Australia, if I remember correctly (this thread is long). Further, I don't think they are average salaries for quants either.
Arkad
Member
They are slightly above average, normally the average quant (3-5 years exp) earn in the 200k-500k us dollars bracket in the states or London. In Aus it's about half due to the aussie dollar and economic difference. The main problem in Aus is not about the salary, I'm sure quants still earn more than actuarial here. But the number of places available for quants in Sydney is very small, like §eraphim said, most of us ain't going to make it as a quant.dude431 said:
Arkad
Member
Random walk theory cause the market is too efficient for any financial analysis? Or are you just saying that it's experience that counts?gm said:
It's highly sought after for those who has good math skills but bad social skills.gm said:
Hey,
Salaries here (compared to NY, London and Tokyo - World Financial Centres) in Australia are generally quite a bit lower because we're a 2nd tier financial centre. The flip side is that, in Sydney - the living costs and quality of life are better.
One thing which is potentially very lucrative - trading for yourself.
For those who understand this, trading Futures have made alot of people rich, and can be done with a personal account. Some technical info:
The SPI200 Futures contract (SFE) trades for $25 per point per contract. The daily fluxuations are around 26-27 points per day on average. If you were to say trade a 100lot (meaning 100 contracts at a time), you'd be making $2500 for each point you make.
So say you pick up 10points per day, every single day of the year (not that likely, but you can trade other contracts, traders have been known to make more) - $2500 * 10 = $25,000
Meaning
Daily profit = $25,000
Weekly profit = $125,000
Yearly profit = $6,500,000
This is without pyramiding (using daily profit to buy more the next day, and so on - compounding).
With regards to Random Walk Theory, it's one of the biggest wall street joke subjects of all time. Uni finance teaches this (sometimes), and uni finance doesn't teach you to trade profitably. Trading requires insight, money management, risk management, phycological factors, timing etc.
Salaries here (compared to NY, London and Tokyo - World Financial Centres) in Australia are generally quite a bit lower because we're a 2nd tier financial centre. The flip side is that, in Sydney - the living costs and quality of life are better.
One thing which is potentially very lucrative - trading for yourself.
For those who understand this, trading Futures have made alot of people rich, and can be done with a personal account. Some technical info:
The SPI200 Futures contract (SFE) trades for $25 per point per contract. The daily fluxuations are around 26-27 points per day on average. If you were to say trade a 100lot (meaning 100 contracts at a time), you'd be making $2500 for each point you make.
So say you pick up 10points per day, every single day of the year (not that likely, but you can trade other contracts, traders have been known to make more) - $2500 * 10 = $25,000
Meaning
Daily profit = $25,000
Weekly profit = $125,000
Yearly profit = $6,500,000
This is without pyramiding (using daily profit to buy more the next day, and so on - compounding).
With regards to Random Walk Theory, it's one of the biggest wall street joke subjects of all time. Uni finance teaches this (sometimes), and uni finance doesn't teach you to trade profitably. Trading requires insight, money management, risk management, phycological factors, timing etc.
CrashOveride
Active Member
Hmm so you know when they show those images of wallstreet and those guys jumping up and down and screaming in front of the big screens etc... are those guys traders ?
What sort of qualifications are required to get into trading ?
What sort of qualifications are required to get into trading ?
Yep the screaming guys are discretionary traders, the ones who make decisions. Other traders are quant computer model people, but their jobs are boring compared to discretionary guys.
Good things to study are Finance, Economics, Econometrics, Political Economy... Even Maths, Stat and Philosophy.
The most important thing is that you really get interested in the particular market you wish to trade, read books, read the news, paper trade...
Traders can work at investment banks, hedge funds, prop trading firms and for themselves...
Good things to study are Finance, Economics, Econometrics, Political Economy... Even Maths, Stat and Philosophy.
The most important thing is that you really get interested in the particular market you wish to trade, read books, read the news, paper trade...
Traders can work at investment banks, hedge funds, prop trading firms and for themselves...
My inside guide to getting into trading would be:
Study a B. Economics, major in econometrics and economics. Get good grades, possibly do honours in econometrics.
Read alot of books on trading (i personally own like 150 books on trading and that kind of thing) - So you have a deep understanding of finance, driven by your interest and passion for the subject.
Learn VB.net, VBA and be really proficient in excel.
Of course this isn't all a neccesity, but my expertise is on the trading subject. This is what I would say if you were stuck with which direction to take.
Study a B. Economics, major in econometrics and economics. Get good grades, possibly do honours in econometrics.
Read alot of books on trading (i personally own like 150 books on trading and that kind of thing) - So you have a deep understanding of finance, driven by your interest and passion for the subject.
Learn VB.net, VBA and be really proficient in excel.
Of course this isn't all a neccesity, but my expertise is on the trading subject. This is what I would say if you were stuck with which direction to take.
D
dude431
Guest
Why would an economics degree be better over a commerce (finance) degree, on the subject of trading (not quant)?
Trading requires skills in PRACTICAL - finance, economics and a couple of other factors.
The best way to learn practical economics is to study it at uni, then think about it, read other's opinions, see what works in practice.
The best way to learn finance with regard to trading, is to read books. There are alot of good ones out there.
Econometrics is a pretty quantitive subject and teaches you market models, very useful in both quant and discretionary trading...
A B Commerce Finance, won't teach you much in the way or practicality... You'll learn how options work. Not how to trade them profitably (for an example).
The best way to learn practical economics is to study it at uni, then think about it, read other's opinions, see what works in practice.
The best way to learn finance with regard to trading, is to read books. There are alot of good ones out there.
Econometrics is a pretty quantitive subject and teaches you market models, very useful in both quant and discretionary trading...
A B Commerce Finance, won't teach you much in the way or practicality... You'll learn how options work. Not how to trade them profitably (for an example).
but econometrics and shit is good, but like everyone has said there arent that many jobs for those people, so wouldnt an accoutning major also be good...
Gm i am heaps interested in finance and have always been a bit of a financial planner (to the extent of my knwoeldge) what do u think i should major in, accounting and finance, or accoutning and econometrics or finance and econometrics - if i dunt get a job as a quant or in an IB role, do u think i co uld just become an economic analyst or a business analyst with a econometrics and finance major with relative ease?
Gm i am heaps interested in finance and have always been a bit of a financial planner (to the extent of my knwoeldge) what do u think i should major in, accounting and finance, or accoutning and econometrics or finance and econometrics - if i dunt get a job as a quant or in an IB role, do u think i co uld just become an economic analyst or a business analyst with a econometrics and finance major with relative ease?