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Libertarian movement (3 Viewers)

badquinton304

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As I said, there are no guarantees. It's possible that they would, but nuclear weapons are extremely expensive (especially the capacity to deploy them long distances which most nuclear armed countries don't even have) and without forcing others to pay for it, it makes it much harder to afford.
By the time an AC world could come to be, deployment would not be a problem, the technologhy would be advanced far enough. However even though most of those little states that have a few nuke may not be able to target at range the US, China and Russia can easily target a good half of the world. There is a good US department of defence pdf with full details on chinas military capacity.
 

loquasagacious

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50 years is pretty short in the scheme of things. The risk of nuclear war is real and it is horrific. The scale of the destruction that could be caused by modern nation states is so much greater than anything that could be done by rouge militias and security firms.
Mutual assured destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't think that a major war will occur.

Yes. It is exactly what we see when the rule of law suddenly breaks down, as it has in Somalia and parts of Africa, or even in New Orleans for a brief period.

There is a huge difference between a rapid, chaotic decent into anarchy, and a deliberate and controlled transition into anarchy which people voluntarily choose. You still don't seem to be able to grasp this.

It's obvious that when a power structure collapses unexpectedly there will be violence and chaos. That's why I have clarified several time that this is not what I favor.

All individuals are given allodial title over the land they own. If they choose to stop paying taxes, the government can exclude them from government services. I might make a thread on the details of this, or volition could explain how it could work more comprehensively.


Well ACists can fund a modern war machine (i.e. a private security firm) to protect them too.

I suppose you could say this still doesn't prevent a punitive air strike or whatever. Well neither does having the government provide the military.
A private security firm does not to me see sufficient to deter a state. For example lets say allodial title was given to BHP Billiton, Rio Tinto, Fortescue and other companies operating in the Pilbarra. How could they possibily defend against a major chinese incursion (hostile takeover if you will)?

By hiring a private security firm? The largest of these would seem highly unlikely to be able to confront a power the size of China. Existing PMC's are active providing infantry, special forces, light helicopters, charter flights, drone pilots, etc. They aren't operating/providing naval forces, heavy armour, air superiority etc.

And without the rent-seeking military-industrial complex of a state how could they? M1's cost $6m each, JSF's cost $83m each, a nimitz class costs upwards of $4.5b, a Virginia class costs $2.8b, Minuteman III icbm's from $7m, etc etc.

In a world with a blend of AC and states, it would seem that the latter could beat the crap out of the former.

Logistic capabilities are not particularly great either. A local security firm just needs a building with an office, some communications equipment, weapons, vehicles and holding cells. Nothing prohibitive expensive, and most of the costs can be liquidated quite easily if the business fails, so in the economic sense the barriers of entry are actually quite small.
See the kind of cost of entry costs which I mention above. Logistic capabilities required for a local police force are low. Those required for a serious defensive capability are not.

If it was as simple as just targeting the assets you want the US military would have just done that. Obviously you have to secure ALOT more land than just the resources you want to take, otherwise insurgents will surround you and attack you. Oil wells and pipelines are particularly easy to attack and sabotage.
US objectives in Iraq are broader than oil and therefore required an occcupation. Furthermore public opinion would not have supported a blatant resources grab. A self-funded PMC does not need to concern itself with public opinion as much as a state.

However, you have not shown how AC removes the disincentives to murder. If anything it creates more disincentives, since average people can be armed to fight off murders and they can also employ security firms to help protect them. The government also creates a huge incentive to murder by driving certain industries underground.
AC communities do not have the herd strength that a state does and see costs above do not have the military-industrial complex a state does. Imo this greatly reduces the cost of pillaging an AC community as compared to a state.

Most importantly I want to ask; do you think people should have a reasonable opportunity to secede from the government? (because that is all I am arguing here, not that AC will solve all the world's problems, for some people it might make their problems worse, but surely it is their choice to take that risk).
In principle I agree. However I do not think that it is particularly workable from a practical sense and nor do I think it is a particularly good idea - assuming that the alternative was a minarchist state (because really what other state would actually allow seccession?)
 

Slidey

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50 years is pretty short in the scheme of things. The risk of nuclear war is real and it is horrific. The scale of the destruction that could be caused by modern nation states is so much greater than anything that could be done by rouge militias and security firms.



Yes. It is exactly what we see when the rule of law suddenly breaks down, as it has in Somalia and parts of Africa, or even in New Orleans for a brief period.

There is a huge difference between a rapid, chaotic decent into anarchy, and a deliberate and controlled transition into anarchy which people voluntarily choose. You still don't seem to be able to grasp this.

It's obvious that when a power structure collapses unexpectedly there will be violence and chaos. That's why I have clarified several time that this is not what I favor.



All individuals are given allodial title over the land they own. If they choose to stop paying taxes, the government can exclude them from government services. I might make a thread on the details of this, or volition could explain how it could work more comprehensively.



Well ACists can fund a modern war machine (i.e. a private security firm) to protect them too.

I suppose you could say this still doesn't prevent a punitive air strike or whatever. Well neither does having the government provide the military.



Sure, you can't guarantee that people will remain vigilant. You can't guarantee it in a democracy either.



Well that's exactly what we do now by trusting the police and military with guns.

At least under AC we can choose our police and military providers directly, and we can have guns ourselves to keep them accountable. Once again, its not perfect, but again, you fail to show how it is worse than the current system.



Yeah so people switch to a firm with lower prices.



What training? Cops in the past in Australia and in most parts of the world today only do a few months of training. The whole policing degrees thing is just bullshit. It's quite quick and cheap to train competent security people, and there is already a large pool of trained ex police and security workers to hire from.

Logistic capabilities are not particularly great either. A local security firm just needs a building with an office, some communications equipment, weapons, vehicles and holding cells. Nothing prohibitive expensive, and most of the costs can be liquidated quite easily if the business fails, so in the economic sense the barriers of entry are actually quite small.



My usual respone: Yes its possible but unlikely, not only does the competitor have guns, the customers have guns, lots of people with guns would be angry at the security firm acting in this way = expensive problem for the security firm.

We're both speculating here, but even if I'm wrong its still no worse than the current situation. Try setting up a rival police force or army to compete with the government, they will indeed violently block your entry into the market.



Nice use of selective quoting and a loaded question. As I said in the part you ignored;



It's entirely possible the AC would not do any good for people in Africa and that they wouldn't opt for it anyway.



If it was as simple as just targeting the assets you want the US military would have just done that. Obviously you have to secure ALOT more land than just the resources you want to take, otherwise insurgents will surround you and attack you. Oil wells and pipelines are particularly easy to attack and sabotage.



Yeah nice one, answer my question with another question.

Well I'll be more frank than you and just answer yours. Yes, I do agree.

However, you have not shown how AC removes the disincentives to murder. If anything it creates more disincentives, since average people can be armed to fight off murders and they can also employ security firms to help protect them. The government also creates a huge incentive to murder by driving certain industries underground.

Most importantly I want to ask; do you think people should have a reasonable opportunity to secede from the government? (because that is all I am arguing here, not that AC will solve all the world's problems, for some people it might make their problems worse, but surely it is their choice to take that risk).
Either you are a troll, or you fail at free-market libertarianism.

The state, in order to conduct its necessary business, needs to use some sort of document format. Even the most minimal of states would have to at least write the law code down somewhere.

The document format that the state uses affects the citizens of the state; because they must possess software capable of interpreting that format in order to usefully interact with the state.

Therefore, the state's use of a document format constitutes a state-imposed market distortion in favor of software that can interpret that format, and against software that cannot. Because the state's use of some document format is unavoidable, the imposition of this market distortion is unavoidable.

The more openly available, and widely adopted, and patent unencumbered the format is, the lower the barrier of entry to supporting it is, and the greater the amount of software that can support it will be. Therefore, the more open the document standard used by the state, the smaller the market distortion imposed by the state.

Any free market libertarian is therefore obligated to support the state's use of the most open and least encumbered formats available.
 

volition

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Loquasagacious

(1) I think the difference between what the international system's "anarchism" is and ACism as I understand it is that there are very big decisions being made by such a small percentage of the population. It goes back to that thing about how 200 guys get to decide when the whole nation must go to war and pay for it.

(2) Just with private companies like BHP, Rio, Fortescue being made to resist China etc - I think this is an pretty unlikely scenario because when the govt just openly goes out to steal land/resources the citizens may not support it. Generally the cost of taking the land would be more than the value of resources available on that land.

(3) Have you considered the idea that perhaps the reason those high grade military weapons cost so much is because the companies who create them are getting a huge state subsidy/payout and generally protection from competition? eg. IP laws

(4) Regarding the right to secession - I think that whether or not it is practical for the government involved, it should be allowed because it's really just a flaw in the government 'business model' that they can't stop people from using the 'services' provided. It's not the fault of the individual that they were born into this system with hundreds of thousands of rules and regulations that they never agreed to and no other way to live than to use government roads etc.
 

loquasagacious

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(1) I think the difference between what the international system's "anarchism" is and ACism as I understand it is that there are very big decisions being made by such a small percentage of the population. It goes back to that thing about how 200 guys get to decide when the whole nation must go to war and pay for it.
Essential characteristics are the same. The strong dominate the weak.

(2) Just with private companies like BHP, Rio, Fortescue being made to resist China etc - I think this is an pretty unlikely scenario because when the govt just openly goes out to steal land/resources the citizens may not support it. Generally the cost of taking the land would be more than the value of resources available on that land.
What makes you think that citizens wouldn't support it? I think that nationalists would be quite happy to support that kind of thing. Also as I'm sure you know the modern state has a long history of seizing land/resources by force from weaker and/or stateless peoples.

3) Have you considered the idea that perhaps the reason those high grade military weapons cost so much is because the companies who create them are getting a huge state subsidy/payout and generally protection from competition? eg. IP laws
Certainly that's a factor. However you can't be seriously saying that this hardware will become cheap or inexpensive. The R&D is enormous, the raw materials required for construction are enormous, the labour required is truly staggering, the heavy manufacturing capability required is enormous and it is hard to realise economies of scale/scope.

Queen Mary II is roughly equivalent in size to a Nimitz class and cost $900m to build. Noting of course that while that figure includes a more luxurious fit out it does not include the armour and armament costs which a carrier does. Even if you assume a 50% reduction because they can't rent-seek the costs are still beyond the realm of possibility for a private security firm.

And remember that we are talking about the purchase cost. Not the maintenance costs, the logistical costs or the running costs. Which are prodigious in themselves, $75m plus for major ships for example (and thats with the economies of scale/scope that operating a whole navy provides).

(4) Regarding the right to secession - I think that whether or not it is practical for the government involved, it should be allowed because it's really just a flaw in the government 'business model' that they can't stop people from using the 'services' provided. It's not the fault of the individual that they were born into this system with hundreds of thousands of rules and regulations that they never agreed to and no other way to live than to use government roads etc.
So perhaps secessionists need to pay an ongoing fee to the state to access it's services (roads/etc) and indeed to be allowed free passage within it's borders?

Seems fair that they pay for what is used. Also seems like taxation without representation. And as a monopoly provider the state could rent-seek. I'm failing to see the advantages of this situation.
 
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jennyfromdabloc

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Well if Mutually Assured Destruction is highly effective, that somewhat undermines your arguments that only states could afford reasonable defense forces since all a private security firm would really need is a few nuclear weapons.

A private security firm does not to me see sufficient to deter a state. For example lets say allodial title was given to BHP Billiton, Rio Tinto, Fortescue and other companies operating in the Pilbarra. How could they possibily defend against a major chinese incursion (hostile takeover if you will)?

By hiring a private security firm? The largest of these would seem highly unlikely to be able to confront a power the size of China. Existing PMC's are active providing infantry, special forces, light helicopters, charter flights, drone pilots, etc. They aren't operating/providing naval forces, heavy armour, air superiority etc.

And without the rent-seeking military-industrial complex of a state how could they? M1's cost $6m each, JSF's cost $83m each, a nimitz class costs upwards of $4.5b, a Virginia class costs $2.8b, Minuteman III icbm's from $7m, etc etc.

In a world with a blend of AC and states, it would seem that the latter could beat the crap out of the former.
Most countries could not confront a power the size of China or the USA. By your logic that defense forces need to be large to be effective, all small nations are also just as vulnerable as areas of a comparable size patrolled by private security firms. Once again your logic seems to suggest that the best way to ensure security is through world government. Even the Australian military could not defeat China on its own (an invasion may be difficult because of China's poor naval capacity) but China could easily blow this country to smithereens. Similarly Australia could quite easily be invaded by the USA or Russia.

Your logic seems to suggest that bigger is better in terms of defence. I would strongly disagree. The question is not whether a potential attacker has the strength to invade, because powers like China, Russia and the USA have the strength to invade most countries, yet they don't.

The question is whether the benefits of invasion exceed the costs. If countries are broken down into smaller units (eg smaller states or areas patrolled by private security firms), sure each unit becomes easier to invade, but because each unit now contains less resources, the pay off for invading it is also proportionally reduced. Therefore, the cost benefit equation for the invader remains about the same.

In your example, if BHP has a bunch of anti aircraft guns, bombs and capability to "salt the earth" and destroy the resources if defeat is imminent, the payoffs for a potential invader would look pretty poor. For instance BHP might make it known that it has the technology to irradiate the minerals in its mine if invasion is imminent. Sure the Chinese army could still defeat them, but why would they bother if doing so cost more than the resources they would get from doing so?

Remember, private security forces can (and almost certainly would) contract with each other. So BHP could share information with Rio Tinto and other security firms, and other firms that may have anti-aircraft guns may agree to shoot down planes headed for BHP's territory.

Your ramblings about "herd strength" and the benefits of centralized planning when it comes to defense seem to run contrary to everything else you say about central planning.

Time and time again we see complex systems like the internet being co-ordinated efficiently by free markets using contracts with little or no central planning.

Similarly, its not hard to see how incompetent the centrally planned military is. Look at the moronic tactics used in the trenches in WW2 that lead to hundreds of thousands of pointless deaths to gain a few meters of territory, or the ANZACS needlessly slaughtered at Gallipoli. Look how much the USA has spent in Vietnam and today in the middle east, only to still be fighting a decade later. Generals and politicians commanding a war from their ivory towers is a terrible idea, and smaller localized firms working together co-operatively would almost certainly be more efficient at providing defense, just like they are more efficient than the government at everything else.

If you're going to stick to your arguments about herd strength (but deny a belief in world government) what would you say is the optimal size for a nation? Should Australia merge with New Zealand?

See the kind of cost of entry costs which I mention above. Logistic capabilities required for a local police force are low. Those required for a serious defensive capability are not.
Sure, thats why the small firm can contract with a larger firm, or pool its resources with other smaller firms to purchase or rent access to big ticket items. It exactly like the way most businesses operate today. Most telephone companies don't own satellites and under sea cables, but they are still able to operate by renting access to this infrastructure. Most airlines don't own international airports ect.

The same applies to what you said about aircraft carriers and fighter jets, not that they are really needed for legitimate defense.

me said:
If it was as simple as just targeting the assets you want the US military would have just done that. Obviously you have to secure ALOT more land than just the resources you want to take, otherwise insurgents will surround you and attack you. Oil wells and pipelines are particularly easy to attack and sabotage.
US objectives in Iraq are broader than oil and therefore required an occcupation. Furthermore public opinion would not have supported a blatant resources grab. A self-funded PMC does not need to concern itself with public opinion as much as a state.
Ok, I agree about the US objectives, but it does not undermine my main point here which I have bolded. You may not have to secure a whole country to extract resources, but you still have to secure more than simply the resource rich areas.

Either you are a troll, or you fail at free-market libertarianism.

The state, in order to conduct its necessary business, needs to use some sort of document format. Even the most minimal of states would have to at least write the law code down somewhere.

The document format that the state uses affects the citizens of the state; because they must possess software capable of interpreting that format in order to usefully interact with the state.

Therefore, the state's use of a document format constitutes a state-imposed market distortion in favor of software that can interpret that format, and against software that cannot. Because the state's use of some document format is unavoidable, the imposition of this market distortion is unavoidable.

The more openly available, and widely adopted, and patent unencumbered the format is, the lower the barrier of entry to supporting it is, and the greater the amount of software that can support it will be. Therefore, the more open the document standard used by the state, the smaller the market distortion imposed by the state.

Any free market libertarian is therefore obligated to support the state's use of the most open and least encumbered formats available.
Just out of interest, does anyone else know what he is on about or care to translate?
 
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yayati

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Libertarianism isn't a single movement.

There's no real definition of a Libertarian.

Some may support Socialist Libertarianism like Noam Chomsky while others are right wing market capitalist Libertarian.

Basically Libertarians support more freedom for the individual.
 

volition

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loquasagacious said:
Essential characteristics are the same. The strong dominate the weak.
No you're ignoring what I said about how like 200 people (politicians) get to decide when 20+ million people must go to war and pay for it. That doesn't happen under ACism.

What makes you think that citizens wouldn't support it? I think that nationalists would be quite happy to support that kind of thing. Also as I'm sure you know the modern state has a long history of seizing land/resources by force from weaker and/or stateless peoples.
Why? Because it's costly (usually to the point where it costs more to take the land than what the resources are worth), their kids die or come back with life changing injuries/diseases, fear of retaliation and trading is a much easier alternative that doesn't involve theft or killing.

Certainly that's a factor. However you can't be seriously saying that this hardware will become cheap or inexpensive.
Ok so let's not forget here that the staggeringly high prices here can also be a negative for the state because every taxpayer is forced to contribute to buying/maintaining all these carriers and fighter jets etc. Who says they're all 100% needed for national defense in the first place?

And just because the costs are high, does not mean that private companies can't undertake that kind of investment. Look at private airline companies who spend billions on upgrading their fleet for example.

Lastly, even if all the carriers and fighters are 100% necessary - then people would all chip in to be able to remain safe. It could be done via 'invasion insurance'. It means that the situation wouldn't really be that different to now with regard to defence, but we would be much freer in every other way. That said, I doubt it would come to this, because I think once AC is established in a few places around the world, it would be vastly cheaper to just trade for what you want, rather than go to war over it.

So perhaps secessionists need to pay an ongoing fee to the state to access it's services (roads/etc) and indeed to be allowed free passage within it's borders?
Seems fair that they pay for what is used.
Ok time to bring out the hot dog club example again. I have a $1000 hot dog club, I have just made you a member. Why do you not want to pay me $1000 for the hot dog that I promise to provide you? Although it doesn't really matter what you think, because my hot dog club will just automatically deduct the money from your bank account or inflate the currency to steal that amount of value from you anyway. I'm providing you a 'service', right?
 

jennyfromdabloc

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Lastly, even if all the carriers and fighters are 100% necessary - then people would all chip in to be able to remain safe.
Exactly, whether you have states or private security firms, the cost of maintaining a desired ratio of military hardware to people/resources is going to be a about the same.


Slidey, care to elaborate on the relevance of all the stuff about the state and document formatting?
He's so clever, he's just messing with us stupid dogmatic libertarians.

He won't waste the wear on his keyboard explaining himself unless he's talking to a real intellectual like KFunk.
 
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