Law at Harvard? (1 Viewer)

[adamj]

Originally posted by santaslayer
Asq, wots LLM?.....isnt it LLB or is it different?

There are different levels of law degrees.

Undergraduate
-Bachelor of Law (LLB)
-Diploma in Law (DipLaw) - not officially undergraduate, but used to fulfill requirements to practice law.

Postgraduate Law
-Graduate Diploma in Legal Practice (GDLP) - for practice

-Master of Law (LLM)
-Other specialist areas of Law:
-Master of International Trade and Commerce Law (Mq)
-Master of Criminology (Usyd)
-Master of Jurisprudence (Usyd)

Doctoral

Doctor of Law (LLD) - rare degree to attain now, mainly honourary.
Doctor of Philosophy (PhD)

The all new: SJD - Doctor of Juridical Science, something common in the US.

All the Doctoral degrees above allow you to have the title "Doctor".

JD - Juris Doctor - this is a two-year program that is offered by unis like Melbourne. Does not allow you to have the title "Dr". Also common in the US. In America an medical doctor is an MD "Medical Doctor" - it is preferred usually over "Doctor" e.g. (Dr) John Smith MD, rather than Dr John Smith. In the legal profession, it would be instead of Dr, it would be your name and "JD" at the end.

FOr those also seeking postgrad law as a form of entrance, many unis are now giving the flick to applying for LLB (graduate entry), because not only is it highly competative, but becuase a better alternative may exiist for those interested in becomming lawyers.

Universities such as University of Technology, Sydney (UTS) and University of Western Sydney have crafted a program that satidifes the LPAB's core subjects for a law qualification and the subjects to become a practioner. They are combined into a Master's program that when completed will mean you only need to apply for admission through regulatory bodies and through the Supreme Court, instead of attending Prac Legal Training. All you need is an undergrad degree other than law, e.g. Bachelor of Arts.

The degree is called at UTS an MLLP (Master of Law and Legal Practice) and at UWS, MLP (Master of Legal Practice).

 

[adamj]

Originally posted by Asquithian
why do u want a master of laws ?!?!?!

hehe, I know what you mean. I was speaking to a barrister who said the degree really means nothing, only that lawyers have the title "LLM". But I am going for the degree to seek other specialist areas of law as well, study up on other areas of law that I cound't do in the DipLaw, it also means I would have more confidence as a lawyer.

 

[adamj]

This is a man who doesn't know the politics of the legal profession!! Sorry to say Asquithian.

The Diploma in Law is the run-off of the old-style traditional and original way of becomming a lawyer. Through the Supreme Court exams. These exams are now under the Legal Practioners' Admission Board, the same body that administrates the DipLaw course, is the same body that gives the all-clear to the law component your doing now.

The LPAB will decide whether you can become a lawyer based on your crudentials, as a DipLaw student, i am recognised by the LPAB as a Student-at-Law, I have been registered with a Law Student number and in addition was accepted via a meeting by the Board in whcih I fulfilled the requirements under Rule 29C.

Many people are turning to DipLaw, many Usyd students who wouldn't do law at UNSW for example, are choosing DipLaw instead. It has shocked me some of the advantages the DipLaw degree has. Lets compare them:

DipLaw:
-Registered by the LPAB - the body that decides whether one is qualified to practice law.
-Flexible study options allowing for students to gain more experience - something preferred.
-Straight access into USyd LLM with no specific academic requirment or credit rating.
-Allows you to practice in all areas of law.
-Full time is from 2.5 to 3 years.
-Program focuses on core law subjects
-Less confusing
-Less expensive
-Suited to those working, studying, even at other unis.

LLB:
-Recongised as a law student within the University/or university student - body that grants degrees, and has to satisfy LPAB requirements in tuition.
-Some unis offer reduced workload, however many require the degree be done with another (Combined Law).
-Access competative into Master's. E.g. Usyd Law graduates need grades checked to gain admission.
-Allows you to practice in all areas of law.
-Full time is 4-5 years (even 6 years depending on other degree).
-Degree has many majors and other subjects that need to be decided on.
-Law degree expensive
-You cannot study at another uni while doing this degree becuase of university by-laws.

SO backdoor way?? I don't think so, if you look at it that way, the unis actually started the backdoor way by taking the exams off the supreme court. But its all good, a degree doesn't make the lawyer.

 

[MiuMiu]

What you didn't mention though is that learning is a lot more self-guided, you don't do tutorials or have access to any of the academic staff out of lecture hours. It also doesn't give you the competitive edge that a law degree from uni gives you (in terms of employers looking at it). Its a good idea though for people who are already working who want a legal backing or whatever.
My Dad's doing it starting this year cos he's gunna retire in a few years and wants to just do conveyancing or something in the few years before he retires. He's also wants to do it out of personal interest but can't attend uni at the moment cos of work.

 

[adamj]

you have to get employed after u get accepted and pass the exams ...


im not sure that major firms would be looking to employ dip law people

Well they can and they do. In fact some of the most prominent judges and lawyers are DipLaw graduates

...additionally ...why arnt more people doing the dip law?
More people prefer to go to uni and have the full support of lectures with tutorials, something the DipLaw program doesn't have. Most people will do the LLB becuase almost all unis offer it. Only one uni offers assistance with DipLaw. Many people wo do the DipLaw course actually fail the first semester, mainly because they are not geared up for law or they need more assistance and prefer the LLB.

academic background in other areas other than law adds to your knowledge which in turn can be applied to the legal prfession

Which is why I am doing a Bachelor of Social Science and keeping my study broad. It is also the reason I want to advance my studies further with postgrads.

this sounds like a easy way to can legal admission to practice... for people who didnt get the uai who have jobs already lined up with a family member or someone they know.

As stated, there is a high failure rate, many people don't pass the areas of Contracts and Torts. Yes, many have got jobs lined up, but others don't. I one of the many who don't have jobs lined up, but plan on earning my qualification and entrance into legal practice.

Graduates with law degrees from the gong for example or maq struggle to gain employment in some areas and the competition for employment is fierce.

You are right, due to restrictions on litigation becuase of public outcry, there is less demand for paralegals as lawyers have more time for administrative work due to more clientel being turned away.

why do u think you have the advantage over someone who graduates with a Bcom/LLB from university of New England in terms of employment after gaining acceptence ( most people gain acceptence )

That is a theory of which uni is better than others. Realistically, they are by law and under regulation by the LPAB in order to be a law degree granting body, must teach the core subjects. There are many reasons for UAIs, remember the DipLaw courses uses a UAI to limit numbers, its not for places - the course doesn't operate on that basis.

A degree does make the lawyer. A broader education.

Again, this is why i am doing more degrees and plan on expanding my knowledge.

And yours is a diploma ...no diploma is on par with a degree

Very misleading, I would suggest you read up on your knowledge of law degrees and qualifications before you defame the course. Sure the LLB maybe more advanced, but it doesn't mean you are a better lawyer. Many have different views on who is a good a lawyer, some say it is a gift born naturally, whilst people like you would say it is education. I tend to agree with you and that some people have that special ability and motivation. Many people are amazed at the DipLaw course, you have just read a pamphlet and come to a conclusion - I have compared the course over and over again with many prominent Law courses at unis, I still believe that the DipLaw course is still accpetable. Furthermore, I have had barristers telling me that the DipLaw course alone is enough to get you employment in this competative world.

SEE YOU IN COURT

 

[adamj]

Originally posted by Ms 12
What you didn't mention though is that learning is a lot more self-guided, you don't do tutorials or have access to any of the academic staff out of lecture hours. It also doesn't give you the competitive edge that a law degree from uni gives you (in terms of employers looking at it). Its a good idea though for people who are already working who want a legal backing or whatever.
My Dad's doing it starting this year cos he's gunna retire in a few years and wants to just do conveyancing or something in the few years before he retires. He's also wants to do it out of personal interest but can't attend uni at the moment cos of work.

Correct, the course is very self-guided.

However, what many people are not understanding is how we view employment in the legal field, not everyone wants to worl for Clayton Utz - I don't. I want to focus on real, in-court law work, something that I could get from a medium-sized law firm, where I can be recognised for my work, not compete with hundreds of partners from Asia through to the USA.

It was interesting of Asquithian to particularly point out the BCom/LLB degree, instead of Arts/Law, not all law is financially based. I for one prefer criminal law, that with a criminology degree would give me the extra edge in criminal law, as I would know areas of psychology, sociology, the inlfuences of crime and be in line with the social policy, not just the law. Everything varies.

Congrats to your father Ms 12, hope to see him in the lectures. And best of luck with your endeavours too.

 

[adamj]

it was taken off the supreme court for a reason

Still taken off the Supreme Court. It doesn't mean anything to say there was a reason, the supreme court still admits lawyers after they apply for public notary with the LPAB.

 

[MiuMiu]

Hehe I'll tell him to look out for ya Jonathon, you can be mates haha.

 

[adamj]

DipLaw:
-Registered by the LPAB - the body that decides whether one is qualified to practice law.

this isnt a benefit or disadvantage...everyone even llb people get to this stage

-Flexible study options allowing for students to gain more experience - something preferred. been reading the brochure ? ... most LLB are working in law offices by 3rd year

So are many DipLaw students, in fact many DipLaw students take on many higher roles including Paralegals, associate's to judges - not those public stunts - summer clerkships

-Straight access into USyd LLM with no specific academic requirment or credit rating. why would u want to do an LLM plus the work load and the level of that work load would be much more than a dip law
To give me the extra edge in the highly competative workplace, to more less open my oppurtunities.
-Allows you to practice in all areas of law. so does an LLB plus additional areas of interest
So So does DipLaw, many people are seeking work in a range of areas - read the DIpLaw brochure for a change.
-Full time is from 2.5 to 3 years. LLB on its own at uts is 3 years - Actually the course is four years.
-Program focuses on core law subjects whats wrong with learning non cote subjects in addition to core subjects
-Less confusing what does this mean ???
It means that instead of registering for tutorials, and going through many proceedures, through studies, I can just do a set course that I am familiar and have been set with. With my other degrees I am concerned with the structure of my subjects.
-Less expensive you get what you pay for
You would hope you are
-Suited to those working, studying, even at other unis.

LLB:
-Recongised as a law student within the University/or university student - body that grants degrees, and has to satisfy LPAB requirements in tuition.
-Some unis offer reduced workload, however many require the degree be done with another (Combined Law). usuallythe non law component ie the arts or com is the one that is reduced
-Access competative into Master's. E.g. Usyd Law graduates need grades checked to gain admission.
-Allows you to practice in all areas of law. and more
So does DipLaw.
-Full time is 4-5 years (even 6 years depending on other degree).
-Degree has many majors and other subjects that need to be decided on. see above... my arts is worth 80 odd credit points ...ie half a norma; arts degree...commerce subjects business subjects and arts subjects in politics, industrial relations and history are beneficial and do not detract from propensity for someone to be employed , this knowlege would probably make them better lawyers
I am doing all 240 Units of Credit in my Social Science degree, meaning I would have more knowledge of the broader field than an BSoSc/LLB Graduate
-Law degree expensive granted
-You cannot study at another uni while doing this degree becuase of university by-laws.

SO backdoor way?? I don't think so, -if you look at it that way, the unis actually started the backdoor way by taking the exams off the supreme court. But its all good, a degree doesn't make the lawyer.

it was taken off the supreme court for a reason



Also your talking about the proceedures ...not the politics...


So not getting a job in this world is related to proceedure? When it was less competative ten years ago. Its government regulation that has had the affect.

 

[adamj]

Originally posted by Ms 12
Hehe I'll tell him to look out for ya Jonathon, you can be mates haha.

lol, Sure - keep an eye out for him on enrolment day. I just hope we are in line with our political philosophies.

 

[Tenille]

Kids, you have to get through uni/high school before all this become that big of problem

 

[adamj]

Originally posted by Tenille
Kids, you have to get through uni/high school before all this become that big of problem

I know, there is no problem, what I don't like is the few LLB students who are threatened by the DipLaw students and who bag them out, it gives people the wrong impression of LLB students. But I hope this discussion can give some light on the path people choose. I will state I have a lot of respect for Asquithian and find his contribution to this site quie welcoming.

 

[adamj]

Originally posted by Asquithian
why are there not more people doing a dip law?

...I only fired up because of your 'dip of law is just as good or better than an LLB banter... and suck shit i got in on a lower uai and didnt have to work as hard and your a sucker for doing an LLB'


your arrogance set me off ...

then again if you want to do trial work in criminal matters i guess you are on the right track ...

Sorry if you got that impression, but I was merely trying to prove that it is not a dodgy backdoor scheme, there are many advantages of the LLB, that we all know. I wish you well in your future, which I am sure you will do well in, given your enthusiasm.

SO I suggest we continue the Master of Law topic or continue with this topic, perhaps in a more discussing manner.

 

[tWiStEdD]

if one wanted to get into law and work their way up to being a judge, being their end goal... yes, we're talking about me... what sort of path should i take?

What sort of tests do i have to look forward to?

 

[adamj]

Originally posted by tWiStEdD
if one wanted to get into law and work their way up to being a judge, being their end goal... yes, we're talking about me... what sort of path should i take?

What sort of tests do i have to look forward to?

Judges are recognised for their waork, they are appointed so a good judge applicant would have been a lawyer for a while, have a good clean record, worked with committees, inlcding some Government departments. An important issue is, impartiality, bif youare in a political party, you cannot be a judge, furthermore if you say something on the record, an opinion - ratio dicedendi, you cannot preside over a similar case as a result of apprehension of bias.

As Asquithian said, any law degree will do you as long as it is recognised, not Masters or special exams are done, but there is a body whom will overlook conduct and proceedure, the Judicial Commission.

 

[tWiStEdD]

So you have to be recognised by the powers that be, be involved in the community and/or govt departments so as to impress the judicial commission? does Pro bono work in my favour? would it be right to say that it is exceptionally hard?

re: ratio decendi
Where do they draw the line between one case and a similar one?

 

[santaslayer]

Originally posted by Asquithian
Graduates with law degrees from the gong for example or maq struggle to gain employment in some areas and the competition for employment is fierce.

but i thought u said 0% unemployment rate for UOW students?
and which areas are u talking about?

 

[adamj]

Originally posted by Asquithian
radtio decidendi ( why the legal studies sly spells it incorrectly no one knows)

Haven't used that term for over a year now. Plus the book spells "radtio" as "ratio"

 

[MiuMiu]

Judges a chosen from the ranks of barristers.

 

[tWiStEdD]

oops. my bad.

How long would it take for a judge to be 'selected'?