Israel attacks Lebanon (4 Viewers)

[breaking]

was hitler right?

 

[bshoc]

Objectively, there is no right and wrong. Subjectively, there is. Subjectively, after holding view X, if you changed you view to opposing view Y - you would say X is wrong (by default because Y is the opposing view).

Geddityet?

No, for example, take the war in Iraq, I may oppose it but that does not mean that people who support it are "wrong" (either in my opinion or in the broader sense), it just means the view they hold is different to mine

 

[bshoc]

was hitler right?

Again stupid question, Hitler did help drag Germany out of the depression, you however inevitably refer to the holocuast and the slaugher of European jewry, in which case this is entirely, just as any other question, a matter of perspective (there are some people today who view Hitler as something akin to a god btw.)

 

[Not-That-Bright]

No, for example, take the war in Iraq, I may oppose it but that does not mean that people who support it are "wrong" (either in my opinion or in the broader sense), it just means the view they hold is different to mine

They are not objectively wrong but you cannot deny that your subjective disagreement with them means that you feel their view is wrong. It's just silly to suggest that even tho you disagree with the war, that subjectively you don't feel people that support the war are wrong - the two statements contradict each other.

 

[banco55]

If my opinion changed, I would still not accord "right" and "wrong" upon international politics, thats just stupid.

That's a dangerous rabbit hole to go down.

 

[breaking]

That's a dangerous rabbit hole to go down.

lol

 

[jenzipoo]

was hitler right?

what do you think

 

[bshoc]

They are not objectively wrong but you cannot deny that your subjective disagreement with them means that you feel their view is wrong. It's just silly to suggest that even tho you disagree with the war, that subjectively you don't feel people that support the war are wrong - the two statements contradict each other.

That argument is fallacy of composition - i.e. what true for one part is not true for the whole (other part) - for example is it not concievable that people will do the "wrong" thing if it earns them say, monetary profit, and if so does this mean it becomes the "right" thing, or stays the "wrong" thing - as you can see its a road of stupidity im not willing to travel on.

Just as opposing the war may benefit me, and thus I oppose it, while it supporting the war may benefit others, and thus they support it, thus even though our views may be opposing, those people do that which accords to them best, alot like Adam Smiths invisible hand. I hope you see the problem with your line of thought now.

 

[bshoc]

That's a dangerous rabbit hole to go down.

Not nearly as dangerous as labeling things "right" "wrong" "good" "evil" etc. and trying to pass it off as a universal truth, I would have though that the current Israeli, American, Islamic etc. admins have made that a clarity.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

That argument is fallacy of composition - i.e. what true for one part is not true for the whole (other part) - for example is it not concievable that people will do the "wrong" thing if it earns them say, monetary profit, and if so does this mean it becomes the "right" thing, or stays the "wrong" thing - as you can see its a road of stupidity im not willing to travel on.

I don't see how it is so, I really don't.

Just as opposing the war may benefit me, and thus I oppose it, while it supporting the war may benefit others, and thus they support it, thus even though our views may be opposing, those people do that which accords to them best, alot like Adam Smiths invisible hand. I hope you see the problem with your line of thought now.

Nope I don't see the problem. Perhaps the only problem is the unstated premise that support for / argument against the war will be done on a basis of what the person feels will deliver the greatest overall benefit (i.e. for the overall happiness of the world), not just what is best for themselves.

 

[SuNrIsE_oVa_sEa]

ok this mite b a stupid question but so like why did they take the soldiers in the 1st place like wat started all of this??

 

[_dhj_]

to be honest I think he's allowed to be anti-semitic just as many on this forum are anti-muslim. this is a politics, and not a politically correct forum.

 

[bernie_s]

Re: Israel vs Lebanon

hey - its hizballah not hizbolla
it means "party of God'
hizb - party
allah (arabic for GOD)
i have no idea y every1 calls them hizbollah hahaha
thanks

 

[SuNrIsE_oVa_sEa]

ok ignore my question then...lol

 

[mr EaZy]

an eye for an eye- but how many eyes have we lost so far? canadians, australians (unconfirmed), lebanese, arabs

quote from a site: proof that israel's actions if indeed disproportionate are evil

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/torah.htm

The Oral Law explains that what is meant is a sophisticated five-part monetary form of compensation, consisting of payment for "Damages, Pain, Medical Expenses, Incapacitation, and Mental Anguish" - which underlie many modern "advanced" legal codes? And the expression, "An eye for an eye, etc." means that that is what the perpetrator deserves

so its all about proportionality right?

this is not judaism- these people break the laws of their own religion- their own prophets cursed them in their own books and the curse had materialised through time as was shown by how they were humiliated through time and time again and their temples destroyed- But now they come back and stick firmly to their failing traditions.

did you deny that you were rebuked in your own books? or that there was a reason for the destruction of the temples? just give it to me straight, im not always after debates

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

i never read that site myself, i like the catch phrase though.... zionism is a secular ideology and has its many forms:

Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular,

the anti zionist jews and some secularists claim that its founders were athiests, but i dont really care about that

What you have written is despicable and totaly and utterly antisemtic....the basis upon which you have decided that zionism is alien to judaism is a total fallacy and you have been mislead and you have construed your baseless information such as your website "jewsnotzionist.org" to argue the most UNSUPPORTED minority of jews in the world who are actual regarded as lunatics!

no, i didnt base my arguments on that site, ive never even read it, my idea, is that if there are some jews spending time and effort condemning israel, then they must believe in their cause, and it should be heard.

 

[mr EaZy]

Let me pose a question to you!

yes please,

If you were the prime minister of israel or you were the head of the israeli army and you were posed with a REAL INTENSE threat from a powerful terrorist organisation which thrives on its ideology of the destruction of the jewish state and not only was the threat imminent through speech and through the propaganda this organisation was spreading in its country and through the arms it was collecting...but this organisation actually began to capture two of your soldiers, fired rockets continuously into your territory (territorial borders agreed upon by the international world) answer this simple question..

firstly i would question what i actually KNOW about this so called threat. lets think about it and not start shooting in the dark... i was just on http://www.israelforum.com/board/index.php,

and i realised that there are people who will reject reality when it appears before them. but i also noted that most jews on that site ignore the stupid ones...

WOULD YOU NOT DO EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO ERRADICATE THIS EVIL ORGANISATION???

if i was the leader of a jewish state, suppose i was David, and Goliath was making a come back

now in the original battle i was weak and he was strong, i realised that i didnt have the power to gain victory- God gave me victory. I dont have any power except the power that God has given me

Nothing happens except by the Will of God

i think David would think along those lines.

Now, to assume that i have Power to eradicate evil, to me is nonsense, but in these secular times where Geroge Bush is having us on in his Good vs Evil and his Lord of the Rings trick (lol), ill play along

the simple answer is "NO"

that is the same reason why i dont support hizbullah firing rockets into civilian areas, when they, just like DAvid, know that Victory comes from God- they wouldnt have called themselves "hizbullah" otherwise.

just to recap, if you want to defend yourself, or even take the offensive then go ahead, in any general situation- but dont you think that in any circumstance, you have the right to kill civilians and blame it on others

Ok there wil be casualties and property WILL be destroyed this is war and this is what happens when the lebanese government is unable to control a militia organisaiton that is prevalent in its society, but israel MUST act. not only must it send a VERY strong message of warning to stop the acts to this dangerous threat posed by hezbollah but must do eveyrthign in its power to protect its citizens

and the citizens across the border.... or did you forget them?

It is extremly ironic how constantly you hear the israeli prime minister and officials of the israeli government yearning for peace

we have jewish commentators who explain what this means and it requires an indepth explanation which i wont currently on this forum but i would be glad to meet up and really explain jewish law to you if you like....

i understand and that would be great

if the israeli government "desist" as you have put it...they would be erradicated by the axis of evil that surrounds them...

no they wouldnt, i am talking about the attacks in civilian populations, the christian towns and the 1/3 of total dead who were children

they are totaly justified in every attack they do as they did not begin the violence and must continue to attack untill the situation is controllable enough that israel's citizens can feel safe within their own borders....

"totaly justified in every attack "???

how do you know that? and how can you judge that?

just say, hypothetically, israel is justified 100%, then a soldier enters a town and personally kills a child

would you say that was justifiable?

what troubles me is, since when has it been an easy thing to take a life and say that that was the right thing to do? since when? even under jewish law and islamic law, if you wanted justice- you had to go through court- so they can think it over... under islamic law, a judge can declare the occupation of a country illegal and have it returned to its owners- that was done before!

this is what troubles me, from both sides, = = one news channel said it well: children are the major victims, and neither side seems to care -

just how terrible is that?

the jewish people went through the holocaust only 60 years ago where at least 6 million jews died...any form of violence against the jewish nation that slightly resembles a repeat of such history will always be eradicated and is totaly and utterly justified...all of israels attacks within lebanon serve some sort of purpose...they may appear to be attacks on civilaisn as civilians are caught in the cross fire

dont hide behind history and disregard its lessons, the holocaust is a lesson to all of humanity and not just a lesson for the jews to stand up and be counted-


the american jews turned down efforts by the japanese to save the jews and other attempts by others (yes i know there were reasons for them- but i dont believe those reasons where justified)

(btw dont belive everything the media tell you they lie VERY OFTEN) but really the attacks are purely and totaly to try and disarm and prevent any furhter attacks from the terrorist organisation hezbollah which is built on the ideology of the destruction of the jewish state

the media here dont really give the complete picture- yes, the real picture is much worse, and for the sake of our humanity, its best that we never see such horrors


if you want to do something about the media:
http://www.standup4israel.org/future.html
http://www.honestreporting.com/

there you go- both pro-israeli - apparently these days "honest" means "pro-israeli, pro-nothing-else" but at least you have lobbyists on your side, the other side have media watch, but thats not very effective at "lobbying"


on the topic of media balance
i have a question to ask (totally not related). im sure theres gotta be a lot of aussies in haifa. where were they evacuated to, and what did our govt do about that?

 

[R.G.]

to be honest I think he's allowed to be anti-semitic just as many on this forum are anti-muslim. this is a politics, and not a politically correct forum.

Noone has been anti-muslim they have been anti terrorist ie hezbollah,hamas etc. But there has been plenty anti semitisim how unusual, i think u all need to move beyond that and see that israel may be a jewish state but not only jewish people live there!!!!

 

[ihavenothing]

20% of Israel's population is Arab Israeli, and the majority of these are Muslim. I fail to see how the invasion of Lebanon is Anti-Muslim, or anything in this debate, as it is only an ideology, whilst Anti-Semitism is racism and not against the Jewish religion but the race.

 

[turtleface]

On Anti Semitism, isn't it amazing that there is an entire sub category of racism solely to define hatred towards Jews?

After their obvious display of disregard for any life (and property/society) other than of their own, you wonder why so much anti semitism brews in Israel's neighbouring countries.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel vs Lebanon

for ur information they didnt warn anyone until after they bombd lebanon u idiot. and the reason behind the kidnappin of the soldiers is cause there are thousands of leb + palestineians [how eva thats spelt] were kidnapped by israel, and to begin with israel was and still is stolen from Palestine which means that there shouldnt even b an israel now

since usa is stickin up for em they should take all the israelis that way no arabs or israelis die n no bush or rice interfirin.

This is a picture of an actual flyer given out in Lebanon warning people of a bombing that was occruing later in the day

"The arab nations have a blatant disregard for human life (and peace treaties) whereas Israel is primarily concerned for its people living in peace and when retaliation occurs infrastructure is targeted...not inncoent civilians!"

as i said ur an idiot

everyone knows those papers were sent after more then 100 people died n as for targetin "inncoent civilians" i must stay exactly how is a baby not innocent [yes u r dumb] by the way they kidnappd 2 guys from da military not "innocent civilians" go learn sum stuff bout war then talk u waste of space