Israel attacks Lebanon (4 Viewers)

[R.G.]

Israel is there because that is holy land for its people, and it is shared, jerusalem has been seperated into 4 quarters for each religion. The war started over land and thats what it will always be about, and as israelis will never give it up and palestinians will never stop wanting it, its never ending.

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

Ok. After arabs and english got the ottomons out of palestine, england gave it the jews right? Before this, i know this in Palestine arabs and jews were actually living together in peace. Did the jews just think that would be alright, of coarse there would be a never ending war, why didnt the jews try and do something to suit both of them. They could be living together in peace, but they wanted to create a jewish state?

 

[R.G.]

i dont see your point? what on earth could the jewish people do?

 

[dovidg]

in response to codereder:before israel was etablished, the jews and what we now call the "palestinians" were not living in peace. in fact there were numerous bloody riots and intense fights that took place between the two juxtaposing cultural/religous groups...for example if you want to research you could look up the massacre and riots of 1929 in palestine and you will see how bad the situation really was. http://www.zionism-israel.com/Palestine_Massacre_riots_of_1929.htm

but just some very very brief background/history:
very very very large amounts of palestinian land (i.e. when it was palestine pre-1948) was BOUGHT yes BOUGHT (not stolen) by a very wealthy organistion called the jewish national fund, so when israel was established most of the land was not only settled but also owned by jews.

israel was voted democratically by the UN in 1948 to be estabished as a jewish state especially after the horrific holocaust where at least 6 million jews died, so the world agreed upon by democratic means to give one place for the jews to live, which was decided to be israel. israel is judaisms holiest site and is therefore the most appropriate place for the jews to settle. although it is amidst all the arab/islamic nations there is no argument to suggest that there is anything wrong with that. jews have every right to live engulfed by arabic countries and should not feel threatened as it is illegal and moraly and ehticaly wrong and there is no argument to suggest any reason to attack israel.

which leads me onto the current situation with lebanon....
the hezbollah terrorist organisation attacked israel and captured its soldiers. israel asked for the soldiers back by hezbollah terrorist refused. then hezbollah attacked israel by firing rockets into israel. hezbollah is apart of the lebanese government and was not stopped by any lebanese forces THERFORE it is an act of war to attack israel in such a way and infiltrate its borders thus making israel not only eligible but left with no choice but to stop the terrorist organistion that is brewin in lebanon. israel thus heavily attacked lebanon to send a strong message out to the terrorists and to try and breakdown these evil and dispecable organisations who are founded on hatred and violence.

 

[dovidg]

Re: Israel vs Lebanon

Israel has nukes, Arab countries has big populations.

I'm seriously so sick of the shit in the middle east, just give the Palestinians what they want they stay the fuck out of everyones business stupid Israel

In 2000 Ehud Barak the israeli prime minister offered the then palestinian leader yasser arafat 98% of what the palestinians wanted, which in itself was a ridiculously unfair and unbelievable offer but the israeli PM was desperate for peace.... Arafat declined at the camp david summit in 2000 thus showing his true intentions - not peace but the total destruction of the jewish state

 

[gerhard]

Re: Israel vs Lebanon

although it is amidst all the arab/islamic nations there is no argument to suggest that there is anything wrong with that. jews have every right to live engulfed by arabic countries and should not feel threatened as it is illegal and moraly and ehticaly wrong and there is no argument to suggest any reason to attack israel.

except that, you know, there were people already living there.

 

[turtleface]

I guess the only conclusion we can draw from all this is that the middle east (Palestine, Israel and all of em included) is populated by a lot of arseholes.

 

[gerhard]

Re: Israel vs Lebanon

also to the person who kept going on about how irans threatened to wipe israel off the map - Senior Israel Defense Forces officers said Wednesday that "if the abducted soldiers are not returned we'll turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years."

unfortunately this thread turned into a palestine vs israel thread, which is annoying because its pretty obvious both sides are complete fuckwits.

 

[transcendent]

Re: Israel vs Lebanon

The thread title was Israel vs Lebanon. This is so it doesn't look like I took sides. Stop being so PC Generator it wasn't as if I was swearing or anything.

If the problem is Jerusalem then they should bomb is so they'd all stop fighting about it.

Anyways this is about two Israeli soldiers taken by a Lebanese extremist group who also holds two seats in their government and Israel bombing the crap out of Lebanon because they believe that the government supports it. Stay on target people.

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

which leads me onto the current situation with lebanon....
the hezbollah terrorist organisation attacked israel and captured its soldiers. israel asked for the soldiers back by hezbollah terrorist refused. then hezbollah attacked israel by firing rockets into israel. hezbollah is apart of the lebanese government and was not stopped by any lebanese forces THERFORE it is an act of war to attack israel in such a way and infiltrate its borders thus making israel not only eligible but left with no choice but to stop the terrorist organistion that is brewin in lebanon. israel thus heavily attacked lebanon to send a strong message out to the terrorists and to try and breakdown these evil and dispecable organisations who are founded on hatred and violence.

from the lebanese people point of view.
Many Lebanese are against hizbolah, they want peace with israel, this includes the lebanese government. Because hizbollah is in lebanese government and has supporters in lebanon it is simply impossible for the lebanese government to disarm them, the situation is so complex it could cause civil war, if the lebanese army goes against hizbolah. Lebanese government doesnt have the power to disarm them.
It is a good thing for Israel to attack hizbolah and disarm them, even lebanese would welcome that, for long term peace. However it is obvious Israel hates more than just hizbolah but the lebanese government and the country. Israelis even know that the lebanese are forming good relations with USA and are against terroism, and a majority of lebanese are against hizbolah.
If the soldiers are returned, hizbollah disarmed by Israel, and the lebanese army can take over the south lebanon, that would be a perfect resolution. Im sure this wont happen but, Israel is aiming at destabling lebanon severly, unfairly punishing them, as people keep on bringing up, for apparently not disarming hizbolah. This isnt fair for Lebanon. So i hope israel will stop.

 

[banco55]

if hizbolah is the real problem, why not just attack hizbolah. Wats happening now isnt doing anybody any favours.

How would you suggest they do that? Even if they wanted to do that they'd still have to send large forces into lebanon to round them up. Not to mention the Hezbollah members wouldn't be dumb enough to stand and fight when Israel rolls over the border with tanks while Hezbollah has a few ak's. The Hezbollah members would go underground or flee to syria. So Israel would basically have to send troops in to block all routes of escape and than go house to house looking for them (assuming Israel has good intelligence on who they are).

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

How would you suggest they do that? Even if they wanted to do that they'd still have to send large forces into lebanon to round them up. Not to mention the Hezbollah members wouldn't be dumb enough to stand and fight when Israel rolls over the border with tanks while Hezbollah has a few ak's. The Hezbollah members would go underground or flee to syria. So Israel would basically have to send troops in to block all routes of escape and than go house to house looking for them (assuming Israel has good intelligence on who they are).

yeh i know that. Israel isnt doing what u said but, because hezbollah is stronger then, They have rockets, it would be too dangerous for israel to come in foot, they have destroyed an israel tank and killed the 4 people inside.

Israel can severly damage hezbolah, with their jets, as they are doing now, and kill much more than neccesary. Israel couldnt care less about killing the innocent civilians because the main priorety is killing the hezbolah at all costs. Is that really justified, how cruel to Lebanon and the lebanese people. Well to jews obviously its justified and lebanese its not.

Hezbolah doesnt care about lebanon, their priorety is destruction of Israel, they are willing to lose lebanon just as they are willing to give up their own lives. It is same with PLO in the 1975-1990 war, they use lebanon as a base to attack Israel then hide behind the lebanese civilians. I feel so sorry for Lebanon, either way its fucked. Just as they were rebuilding, and forming good relations with countries, and building new infrastructue to hold international events. Talk about bad location, its next to the country people want destroyed, so they just infest it. And lebanon isnt as power as jordan to remove them.

 

[amanmai]

I believe that:

1) What Israel is doing now, is wrong. There's no excuse for it. Two soldiers can be bargained for. Over fifty lives lost, can't. Now the death toll will simply escalate on both sides.

2) Israel has the upper hand. Why? It has the support of the Bush administration and has "one of the best funded military forces in the Middle East and ranks among the most battle-trained armed forces in the world, having been involved in five major wars and numerous border conflicts. In terms of personnel, the IDF's main resource is the training quality of its soldiers and expert institutions, rather than sheer numbers of soldiers. It also relies heavily on high-tech weapons systems, some developed and manufactured in Israel for its specific needs, and others imported (largely from the United States)." - taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel. This is just the quickest evidence I can find on hand, but if you'd prefer more secure sources, I have no trouble in believing I'll find them saying exactly the same thing.

3) The Lebanese government is still developing! It simply *cannot* be held accountable for a separate organisation's actions. It is *exactly* the same as if Australia attacked Indonesia for Jamar Islamir - they certainly have links in the Indonesian government but you don't see this country purposefully invading another country for that sole reason.

~*~

I don't support terrorism. I don't support how they've captured soldiers. Don't throw that at me. But I certainly don't support what Israel have done. Violence and war should *always* be a last resort and not the immediate action to take.

Please, look at what the people of Lebanon think: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5176582.stm before you start condemning them as supported Hezbollah.

"If the Lebanese government does not deploy its armed forces as a sovereign government should, we will not allow Hezbollah forces to move again onto the other side of the border." - Amir Peretz, Israeli Defence Minister http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5175886.stm

...

Wait. Does that mean that Israel has a right to economically cripple a country which has only recently finished reconstruction? Does that mean they have a right to bomb this country until they get what they want?

~*~

To Sum up:

I'm not pro anything, really. I just think that basic ethics are being ignored here. That the US can stop any UN action through veto-ing any proposal put forward about Israel is ridiculous. Is this what we call democracy? Where is this so-called "liberty" you so proudly fight for?

This is what the terrorists want. They want social disharmony. Racial tensions. Far-flung accusations and overblown reactions. That is the kind of situation in which extremist groups can gain a following. Because people become scared. Because fear can be one of the greatest motivations of all.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What Israel is doing now, is wrong. There's no excuse for it. Two soldiers can be bargained for. Over fifty lives lost, can't. Now the death toll will simply escalate on both sides.

It's not that, it's the fact that they're being attacked from people in outside countries that now have the capability to launch rocket's into your city. I do not want to claim that the same has not happened to palestine for some time, but it is a natural and fair reaction by a nation-state to defend its self at all costs when confronted with such a problem.

The Lebanese government is still developing! It simply *cannot* be held accountable for a separate organisation's actions. It is *exactly* the same as if Australia attacked Indonesia for Jamar Islamir - they certainly have links in the Indonesian government but you don't see this country purposefully invading another country for that sole reason.

If Brisbane was being hit by rocket's fired from suva and the indonesian government could do nothing to stop it - Australia would invade indonesia.

 

[banco55]

yeh i know that. Israel isnt doing what u said but, because hezbollah is stronger then, They have rockets, it would be too dangerous for israel to come in foot, they have destroyed an israel tank and killed the 4 people inside.

Israel can severly damage hezbolah, with their jets, as they are doing now, and kill much more than neccesary. Israel couldnt care less about killing the innocent civilians because the main priorety is killing the hezbolah at all costs. Is that really justified, how cruel to Lebanon and the lebanese people. Well to jews obviously its justified and lebanese its not.

Hezbolah doesnt care about lebanon, their priorety is destruction of Israel, they are willing to lose lebanon just as they are willing to give up their own lives. It is same with PLO in the 1975-1990 war, they use lebanon as a base to attack Israel then hide behind the lebanese civilians. I feel so sorry for Lebanon, either way its fucked. Just as they were rebuilding, and forming good relations with countries, and building new infrastructue to hold international events. Talk about bad location, its next to the country people want destroyed, so they just infest it. And lebanon isnt as power as jordan to remove them.

The PLO and hezbollah aren't that similar. Hezbollah is a home grown extremist shiite group that arose in the context of the Lebanese civil war. They have substansial support among the lebanese shiites (just like the IRA did among catholic northern irish). I'm sure the Lebanese christians would love to slit the throats of the hezbollah members but it would end up in civil war and besides the hezbollah has the christians out gunned.

 

[amanmai]

Firstly: Unfortunately, it is a "natural" reaction but that doesn't mean it's right or fair. You have to respect other countries and not just decide that if it can't do it's job, then you're bloody well going to do it and pretty much take over.

Secondly: Invade? No. Ask politely if they could send in forces to settle the situation? Yes. There's a big difference. What Israel has done shows a complete lack of respect of Lebanon and a bully attitude worthy of the US.

Thirdly: Where's "suva"? Do you mean Java? Or Sulawesi? Sumatra? Or are you talking about Fiji? - which is incidentally, not a part of Indonesia.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Firstly: Unfortunately, it is a "natural" reaction but that doesn't mean it's right or fair. You have to respect other countries and not just decide that if it can't do it's job, then you're bloody well going to do it and pretty much take over.

In the event of your country being under attack that is what is done.

Secondly: Invade? No. Ask politely if they could send in forces to settle the situation? Yes. There's a big difference. What Israel has done shows a complete lack of respect of Lebanon and a bully attitude worthy of the US.

There would be talks going on behind the scenes I am sure, but basically Isreal is tired of Lebanon putting up with hezbolah so they're going to go in and blow some stuff up to let them know they mean business. All the diplomatic options such as asking if you could let some troops in etc, is out of the question, the lebanese government would not support such a thing openly.

Thirdly: Where's "suva"? Do you mean Java? Or Sulawesi? Sumatra? Or are you talking about Fiji? - which is incidentally, not a part of Indonesia.

Sorry, my mistake.

Anyway just to point out, I don't think Isreal is any more better than palestine or whatever. Isreal fires rocket's into palestinian town's killing civilians all the time, they get the same back at them and they invade - is it fair to an outside observer? no. But if it was your country, would you think it's fair? most likely.

 

[amanmai]

Sorry, but:

no one looks after them but them so they do what they have to

They have the US to thank for not having the United Nations on their backs for what they're doing! They have plenty of support and "help".

Sure, they definitely can't do it with the present Lebanon. Especially after they have practically invaded the country. Trust relations are not going to be going so well after their little incursion.

EDIT (so I don't double post)

Israel's given the Lebanese government one year to organise itself after the assasination of it's former PM Hariri and their independence from Syria, who are the ones with direct contact and influence with Hezbollah. Don't you think the Lebanese are a bit overwhelmed by all this? Israel's blown this out of proportion and the Lebanese people are the ones who have to pay.

Fair enough, but even if it was out of the question, there are always the UN to help out (Peacekeeping wise, if they weren't vetoed). Israel didn't spend much time thinking about options, did they?

I would doubt I would think if fair if it happened to Australia. I'm not that patriotic. A country is nothing to kill or be killed for.

Sorry if you feel I'm attacking you or something, I just have some pretty strong opinons. Sometimes I feel like I should march in there, bang their heads together and leave them in the state of confusion they leave the rest of us in.

Also: http://www.muhajabah.com/israel.htm has some pretty strong Pro-American views but has links that show the Israel-America links, if anyone's interested. I don't promote these views for anything but the evidence they provide as to how strongly America is involved in Israeli actions.

 

[LynH1326]

Its just one of those things. The cycles of Peace and War are never ending - ingrained into human nature, no matter of race, religion or political affiliation. Its just one of those areas that could be at peace with fighting... who knows? One person's peace is another's war.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I would doubt I would think if fair if it happened to Australia. I'm not that patriotic. A country is nothing to kill or be killed for.

It's not a matter of a patriot. It's a matter of being scared for your own security and that of your loved ones around you.