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Israel and Palestine (2 Viewers)

poloktim

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shiftylilbrat said:
Simple:

-Who do you think is right
-Do you think its Israel's right to protect its citizens from "terrorists"
-Do you "support" Israel or Palestine
-Do you classify Palestinians as terrorists
-If Australia went to war against Israel or Palestine, would you support them?



In simple what do you think on the whole Palestine V Israel war going on.

I realise that there's LOTS of threads about his, but i thought just one to make it simple, and to actually know what people think of what's going on in the Middle East.
1). Nobody, they're as bad as each other.

2). If Israel is sovereign over Palestine, then Palestinians are also its citizens, are they not? Otherwise they'd be stateless?

3). Neither. I do think there should be a Palestinian state that Israel is not sovereign over, but I do not think that should encompass the whole of Israel. Perhaps just the Gaza strip and West Bank. The problem was caused by outside influence, and since neither side seems capable of dealing with it, the outside world should intervene (but that won't happen).

4). Most certainly not. I classify terrorists as terrorists. The Israeli army causes damage to Palestinians just as Palestinian militants cause damage to the Israeli people. This makes them as bad as each other.

5). Wouldn't happen, and I don't like the idea of Australia at war.

If you don't support Palestine you are considered a fascist capitalist American puppet. If you don't support Israel you're classified as an anti-Semitic Nazi. Fuck them both.

I support peace there, not conquest, not terrorism.
 
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Nebuchanezzar

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JaredR said:
Put the situation in it's most simplest of forms.

- Over the centuries land has been claimed through conquer.
- The Palestinians were conquered by what was to become the State of Israel.
- Yes there was an imbalace of power. Which war doesn't have one?
I'm not sure that claiming that stuff has happened in the past automatically exempts another action. For instance, say, countless murders have happened in the past. That doesn't make it fundamentally right.
 

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onebytwo said:
well, it is convention afterall.....
"Only Jews are human. [Gentiles] are animals." (Baba Mezia 114a-114b.)
The Irony is arabs, christian or muslims have equal rights as Jews in Israel where as christians, jews and hindus and all toerh religion except Islam are oppressed and discrimianted against in almost all islamic countries.
PoliticalExile said:
You are factually inaccurate.

Actually the West didn't recognize Israel until the East, USSR, did.

Let us not forget how the state of Israel was created, and which government created it, and the nature of that government.

The government of the USSR which had an active Death Camp system wanted to create Israel.

Read the actual UN transcripts.
A clear example of how History is twisted in muslim Madrassas. The first country to recognise Israel was United States within Minutes of Israel declaration of Independence.(What is more western country than United States ha ha) Followed by Soviet Union and its satellite states because Israel is more important to them than 30+ useless arabs states. USA, USSR and Iceland in 1948, Australia, Britain, Canada, Austria, Chile, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden,Italy,Luxembourg,Netherlands, Argentina, Belgium ,Denmark , Finland, France, Panama, Switzerland, Peru, Colombia, and many more western democratic countries recognied Israel within 7 months of geining independence despite Arabs threat of Oil Embargo and other sanctions.

At midnight on May 14, 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed the new State of Israel. On that same date the United States, in the person of President Truman, recognized the provisional Jewish government as de facto authority of the new Jewish state (de jure recognition was extended on January 31). The U.S. delegates to the U.N. and top ranking State Department officials were angered that Truman released his recognition statement to the press without notifying them first. On May 15, 1948, the Arab states issued their response statement and Arab armies invaded Israel and the first Arab-Israeli war began. http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/israel.htm

( they (arabs) lose all the wars and they have been continually defeated and bitchslapped by cute hot sexy Israeli soldiers ever since that date) :rofl: is nt it sweet .:D

Not-That-Bright said:
then should we still accept Israel treating those whom they have conquered as second class of citizens?
yes it is OK to treat conquered people as 2nd class citizen if they tried to kill you, just as the Brits treat conquered countries such as aboriginals, red indians and Indians and opressed them with ruthlessness until they are subdued.
Furthermore, there are jews who have been continually living in israel since 2500 years ago despite the majority of them living outside Israel at the time of Israel's creation, those jews can claim nativieness of Israel/Paelstine just as those arabs.
 

PoliticalExile

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Your statement shows that the US granted de facto recognition to the Provisional Government on May14, 1948.

The USSR already granted de facto recognition to the Provisional Government on November 27, 1947, seven months before.

Aryanbeauty said:
The first country to recognise Israel was United States within Minutes of Israel declaration of Independence.(What is more western country than United States ha ha)


At midnight on May 14, 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed the new State of Israel. On that same date the United States, in the person of President Truman, recognized the provisional Jewish government as de facto authority of the new Jewish state (de jure recognition was extended on January 31).
You're a pro-Israeli who doesn't know Israeli history.

Truman signed the letter of recognition shortly after 6 PM, giving de facto recognition to a Provisional Government called Israel. In the prepared statement, written before the name of the state was announced, he crossed out the words "the Jewish State" and wrote "Israel." Likewise, he inserted the word "provisional" before the word "government."

This opened the door for the USSR to jump in and grant full statehood recognition status first.

The USSR had already recognized the Provisional Government before that date, and on May 17, 1948 the USSR recognized Israel as a de jure State. When Truman wrote "provisional" before "government" he simply brought US recognition to Provisional Government and not State of Israel.

De jure is also translated as "by law" and de facto is also translated as "in practice".

USSR granted de facto status to the Provisional Government of Eretz-Israel, before the USA did.

USSR granted de jure status to the State of Israel before the USA did.

In both stages of Israel's development, the Zionist USSR led the way ahead of the US in recognizing the Jewish State.


USSR recognized Israel State de jure (by law) on May 18, 1948

"On May 18, 1948 Soviet Foreign Minister, Vyacheslav Molotov notified Israel of the USSR's decision to grant full de jure recognition."

muse.jhu.edu/journals/israel_studies/v010/10.1pinkus.html
USA recognized Israel State de jure (by law) on January 31, 1949.
"took the Americans more than a year to grant de jure recognition to Israel,...
United States has extended de jure recognition to both de jure and de facto governments on January 31, 1949.

links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9300(196804)62%3A2%3C457%3ADFADJR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-1
This means a country with Death Camps which killed well over 30 million, the USSR, supported and legally recognized (de jure) Israel before the West.

Proof that the first country to recognize Israel as a State was one with Death Camps.

As a pro-Israeli, you have an obligation to understand Israeli history.
 
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JaredR

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Israel For Dummies

With so much discussion on the history of Israel, the right for it's existence, the Plight of the Palestinians, Israel foreign affairs and policy and just general discussion with any such reference to that region in the Middle East I felt it maybe best that I compile a bit of a document to basically put a few myths to rest. You're welcome to debate these or just have a read and hopefully it will clear up some unintentional ignorance.

-----

Excuse the fact that I'm just going to rattle on a bit.

Did Jews migrate to Israel before it was officially formed?

Prior to the State of Israel's formation, it was known as the British Mandate of Palestine, under British rule. After conquering Jerusalem, the British promised the Arabs an Arab Controlled region as well as a home for the Israelies (Research the Balfour Declaration). An influx of Jewish migration saw tension between Jewish persons and Arabs. In an effort to ease the tension British restriction on Jewish entrance was enforced and Jewish people started to enter illegaly escaping the Anti-Semitic times of Europe.

Early Jews formed underground groups deemed terrorist organisations, and to this day educated to Israeli children as terrorist organisations as they saw this restriction as going against the earlier made promise.

Soon after the British felt it too hard to control the Arabs or the Jews that they declared they would withdraw from the region, thus enabling the UN to declare land for the

State of Israel.

Why was Israel formed?

Israel was the product of the Zionist movement which sought the creation of a Jewish state as a solution to the dispersion of Jews across the world and the Anti-Jewish sentiment. (Commonly referred to as Anti-Semitism). It gained particular attention following World War II and the Holocaust which saw the systematic persecution of Jewish people. I'm sure you can all appreciate that people in numbers breed power and are less likely to be bullied, as that of a minority.

Previous to the State of Israel's creation in 1948 the region known as Palestine was under British rule. And in 1947 the United Nations carved Israel out of Palestine giving Jewish leaders 55% of the land.

How was Israel formed?

Israel was formed peacefully and diplomatically.

What happened as a result of it's formation?

The 1948 Arab-Israeli War for Independence. The armies of the nations surrounding including Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq converged on Jersualem. The UN declared a cease fire and it was at this stage that the Israel Defense Force (IDF) was formed.

What of the Palestinians living in Israel?

They were not asked to leave, they were not slaughtered. Under the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, they were offered "full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions". Despite this many fled, and some historians argue that this was as a result of Arabic leader's influence. 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabic, they enjoy equal benefits of Jewish citizens and do not have to serve in the IDF as a result of the conflict of interests in fighting their own brethren.

Where did the fleeing Palestinians go?

Despite apparent support for the Palestinians no Arab country accepted them. They now occupy the regions known commonly as the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Israel rightfully refused much of their re-entry into the State of Israel as they did not want hostile unsupportive citizens.

What happened to Jews following the formation of Israel?

Positive impacts include the ability to create a new home for Holocaust survivors and the security that their government would never persecute them for their religion given that it was a Jewish state.

Negatively, many Jews were expelled from Arabic nations. As many Jews were expelled as were Palestinians that left (not expelled) from the State of Israel.

Israel and International Relations Today

Today Israel shares diplomatic ties with most of the western world, with a particularly strong relationship with United States. It has also, with the assistance of the US signed peace treaties with both Jordan and Egypt. This has opened two land borders.

Within the Middle East persons with Israeli passports, or with passports stamped with an Israeli visa cannot travel to countries such as Lebanon, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Syria and others as these nations deny Israel's existence.

How are Palestinians treated today?

20% of the population are Gentiles. Aout 1.1 million are Muslims. Arabs living in Israel have equal voting rights, and it is one of the few places that women can vote in the entire middle east.

Because the Palestinian regions were controlled by Israel following the 1948 War of Independence, Israel often faces the possibility of violent insurrection it has had to place restrictions. It must be aknowledged that it is unplausable to think Palestinians can enjoy all the rights of the citizens of many western worlds because most western nations are not at war.

As part of the Camp David negotiations, Israel proposed to grant Palestinians autonomy; the ability to hold greater control over their affairs. This was rejected by the Palestiniians. Attempts by Israel continued, but the intifiada (Uprisings by Palestinians against Israel) affected any possibility. Palestinian Arabs who wanted to cooperate and seek peace were intimidated and often murdered.

When Israel caputured the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967, it sought to improve the conditions of the Palestinians to its previous occupation by Jordan for 19 years, and Egypt's in Gaza. Universities were opened, modern conveniences introduced, Israeli agricultural practices educated and health care upgraded. More than 100,000 Palestinians were employed in Israel earning same wages as Israeli citizens.

What about Israeli Occupation of Palestinian regions?

Negotiations between Israel and Palestine have predominately needed to be done in secret for the sake of protection of Palestinian leaders who seek resolution. Israel has since withdrawn from the Gaza Strip and most of the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority now governs almost all civil affairs, for about 98% of the Palestinians in the territories. It is hoped by Israel that a Palestinian state be created in the areas once controlled by Israel. Unfortunately withdrawing from the regions has brought attacks on Israel by Palestinian terrorists.

Apartheid in Israel?

Apartheid exists in Jerusalem. It comes in the form of four distinct sectors each co-exist with one another peacefully and without conflict. These sectors are the Jewish, Christian, Islamic and Armenian sectors. This is the only place where Apartheid exists. David Ben-Gurion, who led the people into Israel said to a Palestinian nationalist Musa Alami in 1934:

"We do not want to create a situation like that which exists in South Africa, where the whites are the owners and rulers, and the blacks are the workers. If we do not do all kinds of work, easy and hard, skilled and unskilled, if we become merely landlords, then this will not be our homeland."
Arab citizens enjoy equal rights to Jewish citizens. They serve in the Knesset, Supreme Court and in high Foreign Ministry posts.

Apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza

Security situation has forced Israel to impose restrictions on Arab residents living in Palestinian regions. Israel has no intention of taking over the Palestinian regions and as such cannot provide the citizens with Israeli citizenship. It may soon be possible for Palestinians to become citizens of their own state. Whilst many Arabic countries show support of Palestine, they do in fact do little to assist it politically or humanitaringly, evident in their denial of allowing Palestinians who chose to leave Israel to go to their own respective countries.

Palestine's enemy is not Israel, it is extremists within itself who seek the destruction of Israel or who deny its right to exist.

Surveys show that 80% of Palestinians choose Israel as their preferred government because they observe the rights Israeli-Arabs enjoy, and the democracy Israel provides alternate to most of the Middle East.

Why does Israel enter Palestinian Refugee Camps?

Unfortunately, Palestinian Refugee Camps are rife sources of smuggling operations - particularly the smuggling of weaopnry, which is then used against the State of Israel. The tunnels link Palestinian regions to Egypt, and whilst originally the Palestinian Authority (the autonomous authority responsible for regulation in Palestinian regions) opposed the construction and stopped it, it now does not, this leaves Israeli Defense Forces to control it. To avoid detection tunnels are built in civillian homes.

Why is the welfare and health of the Palestinian people forgotten?

International Aid to Palestine has been in the billions. It is hoped by international donaters that it will be used for welfare and health of the population. The Palestinian Authority is corrupt - the money is alternately spent on those high in power within the authority. In the event of crisis, Israeli Defense Forces have been known to enter Palestinian regions and transport Palestinians to Israeli hospitals for treatment.

What is being done about Palestine's economy?

Palestine's economy has been severly damaged since the late 90s as a result to a surge in terrorist activities. Israeli actions on Palestine undoubtly effected the economy, whilst this was in no way the inntention of Israel it so happened in the interest and pursuit of a more secure Israel. Palestinians working in Israel also was lessened to prevent terrorists pretending to be workers from entering, rising the level of unemployment.

Palestine's biggest enemy are some of their own people, not Israel.

-------------------------

Any questions, please ask!
 
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Not-That-Bright

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Re: Israel For Dummies

yes it is OK to treat conquered people as 2nd class citizen if they tried to kill you,
The majority of palestinians would take peace.

just as the Brits treat conquered countries such as aboriginals, red indians and Indians and opressed them with ruthlessness until they are subdued.
I think what the british did to aboriginals/indians was terrible.

Furthermore, there are jews who have been continually living in israel since 2500 years ago despite the majority of them living outside Israel at the time of Israel's creation, those jews can claim nativieness of Israel/Paelstine just as those arabs.
Fine? I really don't care so much about such arguments... All I care about is the unjustifiably harsh, discriminatory treatment of palestinians by the state of Israel.
 

S1M0

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Re: Israel For Dummies

That was an interesting read, JaredR, but i just want to ask this one question:

JaredR said:
Arab citizens enjoy equal rights to Jewish citizens. They serve in the Knesset, Supreme Court and in high Foreign Ministry posts.
I've heard of much discrimination with arab Israeli citizens, despite what you've said about them enjoying equal rights.

Would you care to elaborate? It'll be much appreciated thanks.
 

JaredR

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It amalgamates every single discussion on Israel at this point and explores more.
 

S1M0

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Re: Israel For Dummies

Not-That-Bright said:
Fine? I really don't care so much about such arguments... All I care about is the unjustifiably harsh, discriminatory treatment of palestinians by the state of Israel.
Ditto.
 

Not-That-Bright

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JaredR said:
It amalgamates every single discussion on Israel at this point and explores more.
It doesn't explore anything different from what is being discussed in this thread. You might argue your points are more indepth or provide a handy general insight to the current discussions, but to me that doesn't warrant another thread. Sorry to ruin your hard work, you might want to consider linking to it directly in future discussions.
 

JaredR

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Re: Israel For Dummies

You want me to elaborate on the rights of Israeli-Arabs? Well considering they share the same as other Israelis they include:

- "The right to change government peacefully through periodic, free, and fair elections held on the basis of universal suffrage...The country is a parliamentary democracy with an active multiparty system. Relatively small parties, including those primarily supported by Israeli Arabs, regularly win Knesset seats." (2005 US Department of State Report on Israel)

- Freedom of Religion: Israeli local municipalities cooridnate preparation for holy events such as for the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. The Jersualem City Welfare department distributes holiday gifts to needy Muslim families ahead of the holiday.

- Criminal Justice: The right to a fair trial. Human Rights Groups believe these are upheld, regardless of ethnicity or religion.

- Freedom of Speech: Is usually upheld except in instances concerning security - the same goes for freedom of assembly and association.

- Right to Privacy: Despite being a nation with extreme security concerns and conditions, access to premisis and wire tapping must first have a court order. In Security cases the defense ministry issues the order.

- Gay Rights: Adoption and Partner Benefits available. (More advanced than Australia!) Same sex marriages committed in foreign countries recognised and registered in Israel.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Re: Israel For Dummies

JaredR said:
Israel was formed peacefully and diplomatically.
I'm not too sure that I'd call forcing a new country into existence a very diplomatic thing to do.

You know what else is interesting? Last year, during that Lebanon offensive by Israel, I could see how Israel could try to justify their actions. I didn't think that invading a country, dropping random bombs on villages etc was a smart thing to do by any means, but I could at least almost sympathise with their cause. Upon becoming active in this part of the forum, the Zionist sympathisers here have turned me to pretty much be solidly on the Arab side of the issue. Howsaboutthat.
 

JaredR

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When I say peacefully and democratically I mean by which it was officially written. There was no war to claimm the land, it was given by the United Nations. It was in a written declaration and officially speaking no blood was spilled.

The attacks in the Lebanon/Israeli war were not random.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Yes, well, next time you make an explanatory post, I suggest you make it a little more specific. That way, you won't make such vague statements. :)
 

MaNiElla

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Re: Israel For Dummies

JaredR said:
Excuse the fact that I'm just going to rattle on a bit.
yeah..... you rattled on about some nonsense alright.....

JaredR said:
In an effort to ease the tension British restriction on Jewish entrance was enforced and Jewish people started to enter illegaly escaping the Anti-Semitic times of Europe.
I wonder why the europeans were so anti-semitic :confused: :confused:

JaredR said:
Soon after the British felt it too hard to control the Arabs or the Jews that they declared they would withdraw from the region,
oh...this explains it...

JaredR said:
How was Israel formed?

Israel was formed peacefully and diplomatically.
LOL :rofl:

JaredR said:
Why was Israel formed?

United Nations carved Israel out of Palestine giving Jewish leaders 55% of the land.
I dont call giving Jews 55% of the land (if not more) that belongs to palestinians, peacefull nor diplomatic

JaredR said:
What of the Palestinians living in Israel?

They were not asked to leave, they were not slaughtered. Under the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, they were offered "full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions".
thats so BS....

JaredR said:
How are Palestinians treated today?

Universities were opened, modern conveniences introduced, Israeli agricultural practices educated and health care upgraded. More than 100,000 Palestinians were employed in Israel earning same wages as Israeli citizens..
- Palestinians as i read in many sources, are not allowed to use those modern convininces that isralies use.
- As for uni's they dont go to israeli uni's, they attend only their old tattered village uni's. Most students get shot by israeli's on their way home, or within their uni campus.
- as for the employment part..........get a life mate, and please dont post lies in the forum.

JaredR said:
Apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza

Whilst many Arabic countries show support of Palestine, they do in fact do little to assist it politically or humanitaringly.
Thats the sad part.......no one is supporting the palestinians, arabs do little to support it. Which is why they are forced to get their own country back themselves.
 

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PoliticalExile said:
Your statement shows that the US granted de facto recognition to the Provisional Government on May14, 1948.

The USSR already granted de facto recognition to the Provisional Government on November 27, 1947, seven months before.
Source?


You're a pro-Israeli who doesn't know Israeli history.
I'm still learning.

Truman signed the letter of recognition shortly after 6 PM, giving de facto recognition to a Provisional Government called Israel. In the prepared statement, written before the name of the state was announced, he crossed out the words "the Jewish State" and wrote "Israel." Likewise, he inserted the word "provisional" before the word "government."
Lies. Here is My Evidence that US Recognised State of Israel, not just the government.

The New York Post's Observer wrote on July 8, 1948:
The President said: “It was one of the proudest moments of my life at 6:12 P.M.; Friday, May 14, when I announced the recognition of the new State of Israel by the Government of the United States.” This he wrote a few days ago, in a public message to the Zionist Convention in Pittsburgh.​
http://hnn.us/articles/24559.html
Indeed the great Wartime President of USA's proudest moment is granting recognition of the State of Israel. What a sweet tone to hear.


This opened the door for the USSR to jump in and grant full statehood recognition status first.

The USSR had already recognized the Provisional Government before that date, and on May 17, 1948 the USSR recognized Israel as a de jure State. When Truman wrote "provisional" before "government" he simply brought US recognition to Provisional Government and not State of Israel.

De jure is also translated as "by law" and de facto is also translated as "in practice".

USSR granted de facto status to the Provisional Government of Eretz-Israel, before the USA did.

USSR granted de jure status to the State of Israel before the USA did.

In both stages of Israel's development, the Zionist USSR led the way ahead of the US in recognizing the Jewish State.


USSR recognized Israel State de jure (by law) on May 18, 1948



USA recognized Israel State de jure (by law) on January 31, 1949.

This means a country with Death Camps which killed well over 30 million, the USSR, supported and legally recognized (de jure) Israel before the West.

Proof that the first country to recognize Israel as a State was one with Death Camps.

As a pro-Israeli, you have an obligation to understand Israeli history.
What a pathetic argument, ever heard of slippery slope. USSR recognised Israel, USSR was very bad therefore Israel is bad :rofl: LMFAO
 
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PoliticalExile

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Aryanbeauty said:
What a pathetic argument, ever heard of slippery slope. USSR recognised Israel, USSR was very bad therefore Israel is bad.

De jure
means legal recognition.

The State of Israel was first Legally recognized by the genocidal USSR (20 million killed before 1940.)

The USSR killed ten times more people in concentration camps than Nazi Germany.

USSR killed 61,911,000 Victims in the Gulag concentration death camps:

o Table 1.A. 61,911,000 Victims: Totals, Estimates, and Years
* Appendix 1.2

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM
It's a little more than "bad". It's ten times the Holocaust number of 6 million.

So if Israel was first Legally recognized by a mass murdering fascist state such as the USSR, what does that say about the kinds of leaders Israel had?

What does it say about the character of the nation of Israel? Advocated, funded, supported, in it's creation by the biggest genocide regime in the 20th century?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

The USSR provided the fighter aircraft to defend Israel. The USSR killed 62 million, ten times the Holocaust, in it's concentration camps. That certainly can be termed fascist by any standards.

Israel Shamir said that Stalin was a Zionist:

Israel Shamir

"The Foreign Offices of Moscow and Tel Aviv jointly published two heavy (I know, I carried them)
volumes of documents pertaining to this period. It contains secret and
confidential letters by Stalin and to Stalin, and provides a full insight
into the Second Lover's Tale.

"Yes, our support of Zionist state is a complete break with the
long-standing Soviet tradition of supporting anti-colonial and
anti-imperialist movements. Yes, this decision of ours will poison relations
with the Arab world. Yes, it will enslave the native people of Palestine.
But it can sway the American Jews to the side of the Soviet Union, and the
American Jews will deliver the US to us" - that was the true reasoning of
Stalin and his men. "

- Israel Shamir

http://www.left.ru/inter/june/shamir2.html
Now why would the biggest Genocide killer regime of the 20th century, the USSR, that killed 20 million people in death camps before 1940, why would it fund the innocent little state of Israel?

Was the USSR totally Zionist? Evidently it was according to UN transcripts. I thought the Jewish people were persecuted in the evil USSR?

Big questions to answer.
 
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