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Israel and Palestine (2 Viewers)

MaNiElla

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Re: Israel & Palestine

Atilla89 said:
“It's all psychobabble really, if that's your final word on the situation (based on an outside source, without any actual arguments or points from that take on the situation, than your assertion into this thread is minimal.”

Without any factual arguments? I have been stating facts and arguments and as soon as you ask me for a source, I provide. Now you’re saying that it is wrong that I base my arguments on sources? ROFL!

“Seperate that source and quote parts of the argument that you want us to disprove or counter. The fact remains that European Jews came into Palestine and displaced people who were living there for 30 generations. They were also made refugees and scattered throughout the world.”

Disprove the whole thing. Read it and then give me counter arguments against it. Check its sources, really do I have to tell you how to argue? And why do you continue with the same rhetoric? I’ve just given you facts and sources that clearly prove you wrong. You are starting to act like a 2 year old, reciting the same old shit.

“The British stranded Jews? I recall it was completely different, with the introduction of the "white paper" European and Middle-Eastern Jews flocked to the Palestinians peoples land displacing them.”

OMG, please read the source that I provided. But since you appear to be quite thick here you go: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html#c (READ)
This one addresses your concerns on the ‘white paper’ http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html#b (READ)
If you don’t read these and give counter arguments in you next reply I will assume that you have accepted these as facts, understand?

“What part of the article is disputable? What part do you disagree with. What makes it "tosh"? Justify your comments otherwise they seem like incoherent conjecture.”

Ok, besides the fact that its reliability is about a -10, considering that this group has been rejected by mainstream Judaism (the approx. would be like trying to find out neutral information about John Howard from a Communist, make sense?). Anyway, this Rabbi is trying to make the link that Zionism is the cause of this upsurge of anti-Semitism therefore Zionism is evil. I won’t deny that because of Zionism anti-Semitism has arisen in later years however it must be remembered that Zionism was as a result of anti-Semitism and it’s purpose is to protect Jews by having a state in the land of Israel. The article then goes on to talk about a boat called Patria which was sunk killing 267 people (British and Jews). Know that act was a totally wrong and disgusting thing to do. It began with the Nazi trying to get Jews away from Germany (this was before the death camps which were still secret to everybody except the upper elechons of Nazi leadership). The Zionist illegal immigration organization Mossad Le'Aliya Bet had refused cooperation with the plan because of disputes over the passenger list and funding. The act was carried out by activist factions without consulting more moderate members according to normal procedure, and this caused serious internal divisions that persisted for many years. The article then goes on to talk about the UN resolution which said Zionism = Racism (which was overturned) and then talks about the Ugandan former President Idi Amin for some unknown reason and how he hates Zionism. So basically the article says nothing, gives an example of a terrorist attack which was never agreed upon in the first place and talks about a President who rule was characterised by (direct from the first few lines of Wiki) “…human rights abuses, political repression, sectarian violence and ethnic persecution, in particular with the expulsion of Asians from Uganda, and persecution of the Acholi and Lango ethnic groups. The death toll during Amin's regime probably will never be accurately known. An estimate from the International Commission of Jurists in 1977 is that it was not less than 80,000 and more likely around 300,000. Another estimate, compiled by exile organisations with the help of Amnesty International, put the number killed at 500,000.”

“How about if it was the Police who commited this injustice on you? And the criminals were given the right and power to kill and discredit you with lies and deceit. Then what would you do?”

Your examples are pitiful and in no way describes the situation in Israel. I am not going to even both answering that question.


“Are you saying that Israel's existance doesn't do anything to the Middle-East?”

I am saying that because Israel exists, Arab countries hate Israel. They can’t bear to have a non-Arab state in the middle-east.

“I think you're forgetting exactly what the displacing of millions of Palestinians did to Jordan and Lebanon. (Upto a 10-20% increase in population. Most of which have no homes or food. That would inevitably put a massive strain on the economy of the country.”

I think your forgetting that in 1948 every single Arab country kicked out their Jews with something like 650K coming into Israel. Substantially more then the Arabs leaving Israel. But that is besides the point, and my point above is what we are debating.

“That aside, the effects of Israeli's existance is displacing the nation which existed before it did.”

Drop the line, its not funny and I have shown how wrong it is through sources and facts.

“It is the Palestinian peoples right to defend their country against a foreign 'invasion'.”

Foreign invasion????????? The Palestinians never had a country and they were offered one along side with Israel. How does that give them the right and other Arab countries who had NOTHING to do with situation a right to invade?

“It's illogical and unjustifiable for one country to be created within another, especially when the people aren't natives of the country.”

Exactly what country existed before Israel? The BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE. These people never had a country. BTW what do you think Jordan was created for? That was meant to be the Arab country for Arabs!

“What a moronic statement. What is "Israel"? It's a Jewish state that was build by displacing the Palestinian people.”

Seriously, repeating the same rhetoric is getting you no where.

“Why wouldn't they hate the Jewish people that did this to them. Making them refugee's and making them without a country, erasing their cultures and history and made to live in the worst conditions in camps. Would you love the zionists if they put your entire people in that situation?”

Um, it was their own fault that they are in this situation. If they had not launched a war in ’48, they would have their own country. Once again your point is moot.

“It is every Palestinian's right to defend their home and country which has been invaded.”


You need to stop spreading the lie of the Palestinian being kicked out and being invaded. Its false, I have proven it to you many times now drop it. As to the first half, blowing people up and firing on schools and killing innocent civilians and celebrating about that killing is not resistance ê it is TERRORISM!


“The real reason why terrorists attack Israel is because it is an illegitimate state which never should have existed.


So know you acknowledge that are terrorists now? Thanks for that. As to the second part, thanks for proving my point that you are anti-Semitic.


“From herein your argument is faced with many logical inconsistancies.”


Lol, can’t wait to see your future arguments.


“Because one people had suffered under the hands of European governments, they then return a fraction of this to the Palestinian people? (Who had nothing to do with the attrocities of the Holocaust. Infact, they did nothing wrong whatsoever. And then the Jewish people displace them, taking their homes and they're made to be Refugees.)”


When have I ever said that the Palestinians had anything to do with the Holocaust? But the rest of your points have been defeated earlier.

“Do you understand what we're saying? Where did these attrocities happen? What do they have to do with the Palestinian people?? [Answer these questions. Don't deflect them anymore.]”


I’m going to answer this question just so you can’t say that I deflect questions. The Holocaust has got nothing to do with the Palestinian people, it never has and I don’t know why your talking about it in this thread.
ummmmm do you actually think that your posts look longer when you dont use quote tags??!!!!:eek: LOL :rofl: Its ok, we all know that half of that post is not in your own words, so next time, please use quote tags. I personally will ignore your posts from now on, if you dont use the tags. You obviously dont use quote tags because you dont want people to read through all of your posts and discover all the flaws and lies in them. Therefore, i CHALLENGE you to be a good sport and use quote tags, or are you a chicken??
 

Atilla89

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Re: Israel & Palestine

MaNiElla said:
ummmmm do you actually think that your posts look longer when you dont use quote tags??!!!!:eek: LOL :rofl: Its ok, we all know that half of that post is not in your own words, so next time, please use quote tags. I personally will ignore your posts from now on, if you dont use the tags. You obviously dont use quote tags because you dont want people to read through all of your posts and discover all the flaws and lies in them. Therefore, i CHALLENGE you to be a good sport and use quote tags, or are you a chicken??
Fine, lets make a deal. I use quote tags fro all my posts if you read all my posts and accept that what I write is in my own words (which it is). Deal?

onebytwo said:
and how is one able to look at a piece of information and discern its factual substance from its fiction? its an external form of information, you dont look at a source and say "oh this is correct".
Do I really have to tell you how to research? You check my sources against a whole of other sources. As well as the source that I use, it uses its own sources. So you can check the sources of me sources, makes sense? As to people saying I'm anti-Palestinian, I'm not, I look at the facts and try to be as neutral as possible. When I see a death cult calling itself I government, I call it what it is - A terrorist orgainsation.

onebytwo said:
Norman Finkelstien is not a neatrul or good source regarding Israel. Hets so many things wrong...so don't even both using him. Dershowitz is good.
 
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sam04u

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Re: Israel & Palestine

Atilla89 said:
Do I really have to tell you how to research? You check my sources against a whole of other sources.
It's annoying when you link us to sources which aren't based on evidence or fact. I still wont read that crap, just quote statements, evidence or facts.
 

Atilla89

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Re: Israel & Palestine

MaNiElla said:
"that's is" supposed to mean that you only use that as a tool to try to blemish the people here who are against israel into silence. As in basically trying to pressure those who disagree with you and who publicly express some criticism towards israel's policies, by making them think that they have been caught up in a what you call "anti-semitic" discourse. You basically re-enforce that, by then saying "ZOMG!! look at the people in gaza!! They are butchering each other!!" That's just another cheap zionist political creed, really, its a damn old tactic, that shouldn’t be used no more, this stunt is soooo out of date :D



You can reject these groups all you want, your desperate attempts to disrepute them are failing....sorry for breaking it to you :)



When you and Nathan say "change you belief" do you like expect me to break down, and go: "Atilla you were ever so right, I truly am a anti-semitic..*sobs hysterically*" if thats what your aiming at, then your wrong, because your try hard endeavours in distorting the truth is plain obvious and people arent falling for it ;)



Yes!! Iam a top class debater, otherwise you wouldnt be killing yourself trying to answer my posts :rolleyes: At least I use my eyes to read other peoples arguments, and I urge you to please use them next time too, god gave them to ya for a reason you know :wave: In that post I was telling Nathan that he shouldn't ask me for sources. I was refering to nathan's post (which he deleted). in that post he said that he doesn't even click on the links I provide, so that last sentence was aimed at him, so next time please use your eyes…lulz.



Yes, iam not a anti-semitic, and thats the last time i'l say it, because i dont really enjoy repeating myself.
As for the disorder part well, LOL to that, your pathetic, and YOUR debating skills are obviously pitiful my dear ;) I wont address your disgraceful attitude, because when I debate, I debate with etiquette and style ;)




"That's is" supposed to mean that you only use that as a tool to try to blemish the people here who are against israel into silence.”

Nah, see my response below.

“As in basically trying to pressure those who disagree with you and who publicly express some criticism towards Israel's policies, by making them think that they have been caught up in a what you call "anti-Semitic" discourse.”

No, I welcome criticism of Israel; it stimulates debate and allows the better argument to win creating positive change. It is in all countries interests to have debate. However when that debate seeks to undermine or demonize a country through lies then it should not be tolerated and needs to be stopped. Makes sense?

“You basically re-enforce that, by then saying "ZOMG!! look at the people in gaza!! They are butchering each other!!" That's just another cheap zionist political creed, really, its a damn old tactic, that shouldn’t be used no more, this stunt is soooo out of date ”

What are you talking about, I am calling a death-cult what it is, a death-cult. It’s not a Zionist political creed or any such crap, it is fact. Teaching children to value death is wrong and should be criticised for what it is doing to peace in the middle-east.

“You can reject these groups all you want, your desperate attempts to disrepute them are failing....sorry for breaking it to you ”

Oh, its not just me rejecting these groups. It’s international Jewry. Read my last post, or did you not use your eyes, I refuted his arguments with ease.
 

Atilla89

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Re: Israel & Palestine

sam04u said:
It's annoying when you link us to sources which aren't based on evidence or fact. I still wont read that crap, just quote statements, evidence or facts.
And this is why your arguements are so bad. I read your links and refute them, the least you could do is try and do the same.
 

BritneySpears

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Re: Israel & Palestine

More arab lies exposed here.
Sam04U said:
5,000,000 Palestinians suffering and being displaced from their homes
According to UN, the number of arabs refugee was just 711,000 and of course they never mentioned 800,000 jews made refugees by ruthless arab countries.
Me wonders where that 5 million figure came from :lol:

My Source
The estimate of the statistical expert, which the Committee believes to be as accurate as circumstances permit, indicates that the refugees from Israel- controlled territory amount to approximately 711,000. The fact that there is a higher number of relief recipients appears to be due among other things to duplication of ration cards, addition of persons who have been displaced from area other than Israel-held areas and of persons who, although not displaced, are destitute.
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/93037e3b939746de8525610200567883!OpenDocument

Maniella said:
Yes!! Iam a top class debater, otherwise you wouldnt be killing yourself trying to answer my posts
If this is from a top class debater among your folks, I feel pity for your kind.:D
 

MaNiElla

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Re: Israel & Palestine

Atilla89 said:
As for Maniella, if you ever do click on the links I send out, (which I doubt) you
will notice if you scroll up a few times that it actually wasn't the Zionists who stranded the Jews, it was the British (yes I read your loony article about Zionism from JewsagainstZionism and it was complete and utter tosh)
.
Yes I carefully read and analysed your source…..seriously man!! i discover something new in the zionist regime everyday!!! they are really an ungrateful group, that show no gratitude to anyone.:D
You know perfectly well that you wouldnt have your jewish state in Palestine if it wasnt for the british.

No matter how much you try to deny it, by posting those sources who are also trying as much as they can to hide the british involvement in the creation of the jewish state in Palestine, you will miserably fail in that, because britian did help jews get to Palestine.
your sources only say that the british just stopped "illegal" immigration, and I see nothing wrong with that
the 1922, Churchil white paper visibly established the right for the jews to migrate to Palestine, under the condition that they dont go beyond the economic absorptive potential of the country. After that, according to YOUR source, the british then refused to allow the survivors of the Nazi tortures to find sanctuary in Palestine. the british then DID however change their minds about that, because (also according to your source), on june-6-1946, president truman kept nagging on the british government to relieve the pain of the jews exiled in camps in europe. therefore, the british immediately accepted 100,000 Jewish immigrants.
Eventhough, the british made it difficult for jews to have their jewish state in palestine for a while, at the end, they did give it to them, and they were a great help for all zionists. they should be thankful to them really, instead of crying to everyone, and saying "the british stranded us". shame on them :eek:

btw, the above ^^ explanation is from YOUR sources.

Also to prove that the british did help jews come to Palestine and displace the Palestinian in their homeland you can read this excerpt.


On May 25, 1939, following the British White Paper of 1939 that limited Jewish immigration, Truman inserted a remark in the Congressional Record condemning the White paper as a repudiation of British obligations. At a Chicago rally in 1944, then Senator Truman said, "Today, not tomorrow, we must do all that is humanly possible to provide a haven for all those who can be grasped from the hands of Nazi butchers. Free lands must be opened to them."
Truman wrote in his memoirs, "The question of Palestine as a Jewish homeland goes back to the solemn promise that had been made to them [the Jews] by the British in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - a promise which had stirred the hopes and the dreams of these oppressed people. This promise, I felt, should be kept, just as all promises made by responsible, civilized governments should be kept.


http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

Therefore, the british (as well as the US, since truman, was the u.s president) did help the jews, they even promised them the land as indicated above, in the balfour declaration.

...............and they say the british stranded us:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
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MaNiElla

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Re: Israel & Palestine

Atilla89 said:
Fine, lets make a deal. I use quote tags fro all my posts if you read all my posts
heh..you are being really silly, lulz. im asking you for quote tags so that I would be able to read all your posts properly....that should be pretty obvious ;) if i dont want to read your posts, i wouldnt tell you to use the quote tags.

Atilla89 said:
accept that what I write is in my own words (which it is).
once again, you should concentrate more carefully when you read other people's posts, before responding to them. i was saying that when you dont use tags, your posts wont look longer. Hence, "half of the posts are not your own words" because the rest of your post are quotes of other users on the forum. Therefore, "your post isnt all your own words" means --> your part + the part of the unnamed people you quote. hopefully your brain would be able to grasp that!
 

Atilla89

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Re: Israel & Palestine

Obviouly Maniella you did read the whole source.

"The gates of Palestine remained closed for the duration of the war, stranding hundreds of thousands of Jews in Europe, many of whom became victims of Hitler’s "Final Solution." After the war, the British refused to allow the survivors of the Nazi nightmare to find sanctuary in Palestine."

Only after the United States intervened did the British led Jews in.

"On June 6, 1946, President Truman urged the British government to relieve the suffering of the Jews confined to displaced persons camps in Europe by immediately accepting 100,000 Jewish immigrants."

Need more evidence? Here you go?

"The British response to Jewish immigration set a precedent of appeasing the Arabs, which was followed for the duration of the Mandate. The British placed restrictions on Jewish immigration while allowing Arabs to enter the country freely. Apparently, London did not feel that a flood of Arab immigrants would affect the country's absorptive capacity.

During World War I, the Jewish population in Palestine declined because of the war, famine, disease and expulsion by the Turks. In 1915, approximately 83,000 Jews lived in Palestine among 590,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs. According to the 1922 census, the Jewish population was 84,000, while the Arabs numbered 643,000.4 Thus, the Arab population grew exponentially while that of the Jews stagnated.
In the mid-1920s, Jewish immigration to Palestine increased primarily because of anti-Jewish economic legislation in Poland and Washington’s imposition of restrictive quotas.5

The record number of immigrants in 1935 (see table on website) was a response to the growing persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany. The British administration considered this number too large, however, so the Jewish Agency was informed that less than one-third of the quota it asked for would be approved in 1936.6

The British gave in further to Arab demands by announcing in the 1939 White Paper that an independent Arab state would be created within 10 years, and that Jewish immigration was to be limited to 75,000 for the next five years, after which it was to cease altogether. It also forbade land sales to Jews in 95 percent of the territory of Palestine. The Arabs, nevertheless, rejected the proposal."

But then:

"Between August 1945 and the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948, 65 “illegal” immigrant ships, carrying 69,878 people, arrived from European shores. In August 1946, however, the British began to intern those they caught in camps in Cyprus. Approximately 50,000 people were detained in the camps, 28,000 of whom were still imprisoned when Israel declared independence.12"

And it's not as if the Jews were making a negative effect on the economy:

"This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible.15 The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.16"

Here's the website and you can check its sources if you scroll down to the bottom.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html#b
 

sam04u

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Re: Israel & Palestine

Atilla89 said:
Obviouly Maniella you did read the whole source.
You're guilty of doing that aswell.

"The gates of Palestine remained closed for the duration of the war, stranding hundreds of thousands of Jews in Europe, many of whom became victims of After the war, the British refused to allow the survivors of the Nazi nightmare to find sanctuary in Palestine."
Sounds pretty understandable since the European Jews have no right to 'invade' a foreign peoples country.

Only after the United States intervened did the British led Jews in.

"On June 6, 1946, President Truman urged the British government to relieve the suffering of the Jews confined to displaced persons camps in Europe by immediately accepting 100,000 Jewish immigrants."
Why weren't they accepted in Britain if they cared so much? It's in Europe and could easily sustain the immigrants without displacing a whole nation.

"The British response to Jewish immigration set a precedent of appeasing the Arabs, which was followed for the duration of the Mandate. The British placed restrictions on Jewish immigration while allowing Arabs to enter the country freely. Apparently, London did not feel that a flood of Arab immigrants would affect the country's absorptive capacity.
What's the point of that statement? It's the Palestinian peoples land and even under the ottoman empire and the British control, it was still expected to be returned to the Palestinian people. Instead, the guilt of the world led to an irrational decision, giving one people a country at the expense of another people.

During World War I, the Jewish population in Palestine declined because of the war, famine, disease and expulsion by the Turks. In 1915, approximately 83,000 Jews lived in Palestine among 590,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs. According to the 1922 census, the Jewish population was 84,000, while the Arabs numbered
Sounds about right. Considering it was the Palestinian people country (These included Jews and Christians. Then when European Jews came it all changed.)

Thus, the Arab population grew exponentially while that of the Jews stagnated.
In the mid-1920s, Jewish immigration to Palestine increased primarily because of anti-Jewish economic legislation in Poland and Washington’s imposition of restrictive quotas.
What's the point of that statement? It was an Arab country, it's quite normal for the Arab population to grow.

The record number of immigrants in 1935 (see table on website) was a response to the growing persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany. The British administration considered this number too large, however, so the Jewish Agency was informed that less than one-third of the quota it asked for would be approved in 1936.
Nothing wrong with this decision, as long as the Palestinian people had a say. I still don't see why the British couldn't accept the Jewish Immigrants. It should have been the Palestinian peoples decision whether the immigrants came to their countries. (Eventually they were displaced which is even more illogical.) If as you say they only migrated to escape persecution why are they still there? Why haven't they gone home. Back to Europe where they came from. Why do they take the Major cities of the Palestinian peoples land, and their country? While the Palestinians are forced to become refugees?

It's senseless garbage.
 

JayB

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Re: Israel & Palestine

sam, show me a source of the european jews invading a country that until 1948 was a protectorate or a proxy state. there was nothing to invade. immigration is not invasion. there was no palestinian country, no government, no democratic process. the land was bought from them or from the turks who owned it. hardly an invasion.

secondly, who expected it to be returned to the palestinians? when was it promised to them? and by whom?

thirdly, the religious leader of this time, the mufti of jerusalem was an open and vocal supporter of hitler, so i would really question the inclusiveness of the regime.

but finally i would make mention that while there are israeli arabs living in israel, im pretty sure there are no jews living in the territories, which is a solely palestinian environment, indicative of the divisive nature of the leaders of that society. they dont want an inclusive solution, just for all the jews to die or leave.
 

sam04u

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sam, show me a source of the european jews invading a country that until 1948 was a protectorate or a proxy state.
Read the definition of invasion. The European Jews came into the Palestinian peoples land and displaced them.

there was nothing to invade. immigration is not invasion. there was no palestinian country, no government, no democratic process.
Just because one nation occupies another that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Saying there was no Palestinian land or country is down right racist. They had been living in those lands for 30 generations, I think that makes it their land and country. (Whether it was internationally recognised or not.)

The land was bought from them or from the turks who owned it. hardly an invasion.
I hate that myth. Show me proof of the Palestinian people benefiting from the sale of their land. Prove that every road, mosque, public service, park, and house was sold to the Jews. Then prove that the people benefited from it.

Then I want you to prove that the every Palestinian sold their right to live in their country, and then show how they benefited from tht sale.

secondly, who expected it to be returned to the palestinians? when was it promised to them? and by whom?
The Palestinians did. But that was what was expected to happen. Nobody predicted that the Jews would come and occupy the Palestinians peoples land (Because some foreigners had invaded it.)

thirdly, the religious leader of this time, the mufti of jerusalem was an open and vocal supporter of hitler, so i would really question the inclusiveness of the regime.
I could just as easily argue that the British Politician was pro-zionist. Everybody should question his inclusiveness in the British Mandate which left millions of Palestinians without a home.

but finally i would make mention that while there are israeli arabs living in israel
They have a right to live there. I wont argue that. But when the millions of Europen Jews came and outnumbered the Palestinians in their own homes. Then displaced them and made them refugees. Then made it illegal for non-Jews to enter the country. Then made it legal for anybody with a Jewish mother to become a resident of the country. That was unjustified, and those people don't have a right to live in the country at the expense of the muslim people.

They dont want an inclusive solution, just for all the jews to die or leave
That is an obvious lie and is based on no real evidence. Do you think Jews under persecution in the past did not wish for their oppressors to be punished? Do you think Jews under persecution did ask "why are the world standing idley by as these injustices are commited?"

Believe me, they asked those questions and much more. That gives you no right to criticise the Palestinian people when others live in their land. It's a great injustice.
 

JayB

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Read the definition of invasion. The European Jews came into the Palestinian peoples land and displaced them.
an invasion is different to an immigration. an invasion involves a show of force. an invasion usually requires an army, not a few hundred thousand starving escapees from a genocide.

Just because one nation occupies another that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Saying there was no Palestinian land or country is down right racist. They had been living in those lands for 30 generations, I think that makes it their land and country. (Whether it was internationally recognised or not.)
no, i don't think saying that the country didn't exist is rascist. i'm not denying that they lived there, im just saying that it wasn't a country. (country - "A politically organized body of people under a single government")

Show me proof of the Palestinian people benefiting from the sale of their land. Prove that every road, mosque, public service, park, and house was sold to the Jews. Then prove that the people benefited from it. Then I want you to prove that the every Palestinian sold their right to live in their country, and then show how they benefited from tht sale.
sale does not equal benefit, nor did the palestinians own the land. they were there, but it wasn't theirs. sovereignty was to the ottomon empire, and then to the british. i want you to show me the deeds proving that they owned their land, proving that they bought it from the romans who owned it previously, from the greeks, from the persians and from the jews. i can pretty much guarentee that the majority cant.

I could just as easily argue that the British Politician was pro-zionist. Everybody should question his inclusiveness in the British Mandate which left millions of Palestinians without a home.
the point being that the mufti, the religious leader of the people, wanted all the jews dead. the british guy wanted a homeland. just a small discrepancy there.

That is an obvious lie and is based on no real evidence. Do you think Jews under persecution in the past did not wish for their oppressors to be punished? Do you think Jews under persecution did ask "why are the world standing idley by as these injustices are commited?" Believe me, they asked those questions and much more. That gives you no right to criticise the Palestinian people when others live in their land. It's a great injustice.
wait wait wait, because jews were killed at some point, i can't condemn HAMAS for being terrorists and anti-jewish to the point that hitler would have been proud? what does one have to do with the other exactly?

  • when did the arabs declare war on the jews? every day from 1948 onwards.
  • when did the jewish govt. advocate the systematic destruction of the islamic people? never!
  • HAMAS on the other hand, opens their party statement by calling for jewish blood, and does so repeatedly throughout.


so yeah, i think that gives me the right to criticize the palestinian efforts in the peace process.
 
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BritneySpears

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sam04u said:
Read the definition of invasion. The European Jews came into the Palestinian peoples land and displaced them.


Just because one nation occupies another that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Saying there was no Palestinian land or country is down right racist. They had been living in those lands for 30 generations, I think that makes it their land and country. (Whether it was internationally recognised or not.)
Look at his obsession with europeans, in almost every posts he mentioned about European jews, despite the fact that 0ver 750,000 jews from arabs and islamic countries immigrated to israel and now representing over 3 million. yet he keep obsessing with the jews who immigrated from Europe. This shows the nasty racism of lebanese arabs in general against whites, not only jews.
Just like he tried to make new definition of Anti-semitism , he tried to re define invasion as well trying to make non existing invasion happen. LOL :rofl: I looked at all history books and did advanced search from the library, I failed to find Israeli invasion of Palestine LOL :D. Should we call Lebanese Invasion of Australia after so many of them immigrated here :rofl:

I hate that myth. Show me proof of the Palestinian people benefiting from the sale of their land. Prove that every road, mosque, public service, park, and house was sold to the Jews. Then prove that the people benefited from it.

Then I want you to prove that the every Palestinian sold their right to live in their country, and then show how they benefited from tht sale.
It is your duty think twice before selling your property. No Israel does not have to show nor prove arabs benefited from their sale, it is their duty. Stop Blaming Jews for your stupidity, arrogance and blunder.


The Palestinians did. But that was what was expected to happen. Nobody predicted that the Jews would come and occupy the Palestinians peoples land (Because some foreigners had invaded it.)


I could just as easily argue that the British Politician was pro-zionist. Everybody should question his inclusiveness in the British Mandate which left millions of Palestinians without a home.
Again, 710000 is NOT millions, furthermore, it was arabs (lebs,syrians,egypt,iraq) which made them homeless by invading palestine and Israel.


They have a right to live there. I wont argue that. But when the millions of Europen Jews came and outnumbered the Palestinians in their own homes. Then displaced them and made them refugees. Then made it illegal for non-Jews to enter the country. Then made it legal for anybody with a Jewish mother to become a resident of the country. That was unjustified, and those people don't have a right to live in the country at the expense of the muslim people.
Yes they had a right which you arabs(lebss,syrians,egyptians) destroyed by invading israel and made the palestinian refugees and continually oppress them for over 50 years. Just look at your own treatment of palestinians, worse than slaves. That is fair treatment according to you.


That is an obvious lie and is based on no real evidence. Do you think Jews under persecution in the past did not wish for their oppressors to be punished? Do you think Jews under persecution did ask "why are the world standing idley by as these injustices are commited?"

Believe me, they asked those questions and much more. That gives you no right to criticise the Palestinian people when others live in their land. It's a great injustice.
I ask the same question why are the world stands idle while 400,000 palestinians are treated with the most inhumane method by lebanese? (no property right, no right to vote, no citizenship, no education, no health care, no jobs, as a palestinian said "treatd like vermin" by lebanese.
 
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MaNiElla

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onebytwo said:

thanks!! :) the debates were really are interesting.
norman finkelstein is right about palestine, he's views are really wise, reasonable ,and very prudent.
I agree with what he said concerning the right for palestinians to have the same rights as Israel. he was saying that Palestinians should have a homeland, and that a legitimate Palestinian state should be established and recognised. he also called for same rights, same self-determination of statehood, and security of a Palestinian state.
according to finkelstein israel is the 4th leading military power in the world..gosh I didnt know that!! and Israel still complains about security!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

great debate!! although i still didnt watch the last one :(
 

MaNiElla

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Atilla89 said:
Obviouly Maniella you did read the whole source.

"The gates of Palestine remained closed for the duration of the war, stranding hundreds of thousands of Jews in Europe, many of whom became victims of Hitler’s "Final Solution." After the war, the British refused to allow the survivors of the Nazi nightmare to find sanctuary in Palestine."

Only after the United States intervened did the British led Jews in.

"On June 6, 1946, President Truman urged the British government to relieve the suffering of the Jews confined to displaced persons camps in Europe by immediately accepting 100,000 Jewish immigrants."

Need more evidence? Here you go?

"The British response to Jewish immigration set a precedent of appeasing the Arabs, which was followed for the duration of the Mandate. The British placed restrictions on Jewish immigration while allowing Arabs to enter the country freely. Apparently, London did not feel that a flood of Arab immigrants would affect the country's absorptive capacity.

During World War I, the Jewish population in Palestine declined because of the war, famine, disease and expulsion by the Turks. In 1915, approximately 83,000 Jews lived in Palestine among 590,000 Muslim and Christian Arabs. According to the 1922 census, the Jewish population was 84,000, while the Arabs numbered 643,000.4 Thus, the Arab population grew exponentially while that of the Jews stagnated.
In the mid-1920s, Jewish immigration to Palestine increased primarily because of anti-Jewish economic legislation in Poland and Washington’s imposition of restrictive quotas.5

The record number of immigrants in 1935 (see table on website) was a response to the growing persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany. The British administration considered this number too large, however, so the Jewish Agency was informed that less than one-third of the quota it asked for would be approved in 1936.6

The British gave in further to Arab demands by announcing in the 1939 White Paper that an independent Arab state would be created within 10 years, and that Jewish immigration was to be limited to 75,000 for the next five years, after which it was to cease altogether. It also forbade land sales to Jews in 95 percent of the territory of Palestine. The Arabs, nevertheless, rejected the proposal."

But then:

"Between August 1945 and the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948, 65 “illegal” immigrant ships, carrying 69,878 people, arrived from European shores. In August 1946, however, the British began to intern those they caught in camps in Cyprus. Approximately 50,000 people were detained in the camps, 28,000 of whom were still imprisoned when Israel declared independence.12"

And it's not as if the Jews were making a negative effect on the economy:

"This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible.15 The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.16"

Here's the website and you can check its sources if you scroll down to the bottom.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html#b
LOL, fine, you're not up for the challenge, therefore im not going to read your posts anymore.

Its seem that you really really really dont want me to read ALL your posts thats why you dont want to use the quote tags. whether you are quoting a person or a source, you should still use them.

in my previous post, i quoted you, and a peice of a article, and i used tags for both of them.

I told myself when i read this post that maybe your small little brain doesnt know that you should also use tags to quote sources too . But, i then checked the rest of your replies, and unfortunatly, you chickened out, and failed to use them.
I assume, that you didnt have anything proper to refute my argument with, therefore, you didnt use the tags in the hope that i wont read your post and find all the flaws ;)

So unless your going to re-write (or edit) your posts and use quote tags like everyone else, im going to skip your posts, and im going to treat them as if they dont exist.

You should be grateful and thankful to Sam04u, because he actually took the time, to go through your stupid weak arguments. Personally, i wouldnt waste my precious time, trying to figure out who you quoted, and what you wrote, and what the other person wrote. i've got better stuff to do :cool:
 

JayB

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Re: Israel & Palestine

therea are many different types of military might. if the palestinian insurgents and terrorists were to face the israeli army in conventional warfare they wouldn't last a day. they utilise guerilla and terrorist tactics, and thus the only method to keep the land safe is to cut them off from the country.

re: guerilla warfare, im sure everyone will agree that america is the leading military nation in the world, or at least top 3, and yet they couldn't win vietnam for the same reason. you can't conventionally fight an enemy taht utilises terror as a tactic.
 

sam04u

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Re: Israel & Palestine

JayB said:
an invasion is different to an immigration. an invasion involves a show of force. an invasion usually requires an army, not a few hundred thousand starving escapees from a genocide.
They came into a foreign peoples land unwelcomed and then displaced them. They formed militias and military regimes which attacked anybody who opposed their invasion. Palestinians are starving now and living in an unbearable situation because of Israel's existance. Why should the Palestinians suffer, you're such an imbecilic moron.

no, i don't think saying that the country didn't exist is rascist. i'm not denying that they lived there, im just saying that it wasn't a country. (country - "A politically organized body of people under a single government")
It was there land, it's there country. Not by the shaky description of a country, but they lived there. Why should a state which was created in their country be allowed to displace the people already living there? That's the part where it turns from an immigration to an invasion. You don't come into a state and then make selective immigration which oppressing and attacking the remaining Palestinians and consider this to me an immigration. It's an occupation. A zionist occupation of the palestinian peopels land.

Sale does not equal benefit, nor did the palestinians own the land.
Not only did they own the land, but they have a birth right to it. One that extends for 30 centuries. Lets see your own logic on this. It can become a Jewish state because they immigrated there from starvation? (Illogical) then they can deny the Palestinian people the right to the land. Then, they can accuse them of selling the land. And finally, they can claim that they now own the land? You've just broken about a 100 international laws.

They were there, but it wasn't theirs.
It was and is there land. Why can't you accept the fact that Israel occupies the Palestinian peoples land? It was invaded then by the ottoman empire and later the British empire and now the Israeli Empire. What's the difference? It's was invaded by foreigners on three seperate occasions. That doesn't mean it's no longer their country.

I want you to show me the deeds proving that they owned their land
I want you to show me the Australians deed to Australia, the Americans deed to America and even the White New Zealands deed to New Zealand. I'm afraid you wont find either of them, because those were different times. Israels invasion of Palestine is one which is well documented and was done in modern times where it is illegal. The Palestinians should have a right to self-determination, they shouldn't have been forced out of their land. (Yet you can't seem to explain why. Basically all you can do is claim that they sold the land, which you've now denied. Instead you now claim that Palestine didn't exist and the people had no right to the land. That's preposterous. They've been living their for centuries that's enough right to land for me and nearly anybody else. What right to the Jews who immigrated MAINLY from Europe have to the land? They can only point to the bible which says they are the "people" of the land. That's so ridiculous and stupid. Everybody knows that.

The point being that the mufti, the religious leader of the people, wanted all the jews dead. the british guy wanted a homeland. just a small discrepancy there.
Prove it, with an unbiased documented source of him saying that he wanted all the jewish people in the world dead. Even still, what does this have to do with the Palestinian peoples right to exist in their land? It was just completely irrelevant, but the Prime Minister of Israel has said terrorist attacks are justified and much more.

wait wait wait, because jews were killed at some point
Jews were killed by Germans because they hated them. Not by Palestinians. Muslim people disliked the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel but it was still the Jewish peoples "decision" to immigrate into the Palestinian land. They were never forced.

I can't condemn HAMAS for being terrorists
When did I say you couldn't you ignorant liar? The Israeli state has commited more terrorist attrocities than Hamas. You know the definition of terrorism by now, and Israeli are perhaps the largest terrorist force in the Middle-East.

Terrorism = An attack on civilians in order to gain a political or military advantage. It is extremely well documented that they have done this. I mean, they use Cluster bombs which are illegal. That's a terrorist attack. They use weapons with Depleted uranium. They use sulfurs which burn skin (Chemical warfare.)

They're terrorists. There is no doubt about that. Why should one terrorist group be condemned, when the other is not? It's just one of the many double standards Israel has become accustomed too.

when did the arabs declare war on the jews? every day from 1948 onwards.
When they invaded an Arab country, and expelled the millions of civilians which existed there. Contrary to what You and your band of imbeciles constantly regurgitate over 2,000,000 people have been directly "expelled" from the Palestinian land. I was correct in saying millions were "Displaced" not necessarily all palestinians.

Because of the Israeli invasion about 5,000,000 Palestinians exist as refugees throughout the world.

Lets get some facts down. Because the Jews were Hungry and Escaping war they deserve to make over 5,000,000 people in a similar position?

Right now as you continually regurgitate so much crap that it becomes useless continually bringing up the same points. 5,000,000 Palestinians live in holes, camps and dungeons. Whilst Israel lives in the comfort of the Palestinian peoples homes.

I think that gives me the right to criticize the palestinian.
Nothing gives you the right to criticise the Palestinians. They live in horrible conditions because of Israel, yet you say "It's fine because they were invaded. Therefore we can kick them out and make them refugees. Even though the majority of the Israelis who immigrated to Palestine were Europeans. I'm immune to logic and it's evident in my posts. I'm totally pro zionists, who cares about the Palestinians? They're inferior to the People of god who now occupy Palestine."

As you continually say that. I'm left dumbfounded. And I wonder whether people really fall for your crap.

You're a small fish in this pond. You're like Sushi to me. If I took the time to debate you I would eat you raw like the lying fish you are. But it's never ending cycle with you zionists.

Anyways, I'm probably not going to respond for a while. I've wasted way to many time dealing with the same old rhetoric. Come at me with some fresh "failed attempts at logic" and then we'll debate. Untill then I'm going to respond in the usual fashion.
 
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sam04u

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Anybody else noticed that he writes in American-English? Atleast find a canadian to write your posts next time. (Probably some balding middle aged man, trying to manipulate/brainwash Australians.)
 

JayB

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play the ball not the man, you being rude just detracts from the quality of the discussion. if you disagree with my point, fine. but being deprecating is unpleasant, and highly uncalled for. character attacks are for when you don't have an argument, and yours is sophisticated enough not to need them.

Not only did they own the land, but they have a birth right to it. One that extends for 30 centuries. Lets see your own logic on this. It can become a Jewish state because they immigrated there from starvation? (Illogical) then they can deny the Palestinian people the right to the land. Then, they can accuse them of selling the land. And finally, they can claim that they now own the land? You've just broken about a 100 international laws.
a birthright? from whom? which tribe are they descended from? what is the collective nationality of the palestinian people? the only birthright to the nation that is 30 centuries old are the jews who were taken out of egypt by moses. and im assuming you aren't ascertaining that the current palestinians are descended from them.

so now they immigrate? which date are you using in particular? im gonna assume you're talking about post 1948. see, jews have been immigrating and returning to the land since the 1200's following their expulsion from countries. it continues up until this day. people like Baron Rothschild purchased the land from the ottoman owners. so your issue is really with the turkish, they sold the land. sold i might add, long before the WW2 and the holocaust. in immigrating, they didn't deny the palestinian people anything, but were denied access to jerusalem until 1967. like i said, not really inclusionists. they don't just claim to own the land, they have the deeds, the paperwork. they ARE the owners of the land.

It was and is there land. Why can't you accept the fact that Israel occupies the Palestinian peoples land? It was invaded then by the ottoman empire and later the British empire and now the Israeli Empire. What's the difference? It's was invaded by foreigners on three seperate occasions. That doesn't mean it's no longer their country.
i can't accept it, because by that token, the jews who were expelled from it in 70CE should still have sovereignty then shouldn't they? i mean, there were just a few seperate occasions that it was invaded by other empires. so by you're logic, it is the jews' land.

I want you to show me the Australians deed to Australia, the Americans deed to America and even the White New Zealands deed to New Zealand. I'm afraid you wont find either of them, because those were different times.
actually, if you were more aware of history, you would know that there is an agreement between the colonial english and the mauri of NZ, a 99 year accord that gives the english sovereignty over the land, that was transfered to the current NZ country. Deed no 1.

the american's tricked the natives off their land to be sure, but they bought it from them, ripped them off, but still bought it. again, they documented it, and that would be Deed no 2.

now australia is different, but ive stated previously, if you ascertain that the jews should leave israel, then by that argument you should leave australia because the ABORIGINIES were here first. so if you leave the country and remove all your ties to it, your argument seems more sincere, and less anti-jewish.

The Palestinians should have a right to self-determination, they shouldn't have been forced out of their land.
they do, under the current political climate. and according the the israeli govt too. and yet, curiously, they refuse to give the israeli govt the same courtesy.

That's preposterous. They've been living their for centuries that's enough right to land for me and nearly anybody else.
see above points, they adress this.

What right to the Jews who immigrated MAINLY from Europe have to the land? They can only point to the bible which says they are the "people" of the land. That's so ridiculous and stupid. Everybody knows that.
Prove it, with an unbiased documented source of him saying that he wanted all the jewish people in the world dead. Even still, what does this have to do with the Palestinian peoples right to exist in their land? It was just completely irrelevant, but the Prime Minister of Israel has said terrorist attacks are justified and much more.
WOW, the PM of israel has called terrorist attacks justified? WTF? when did that happen? or are you just paraphrasing your opinion of his words.

The Mufti's statement upon arrival in germany in 1941 "Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy"

Hitler's promise to him that same visit:

  1. He (the Führer) would carry on the fight until the last traces of the Jewish-Communist European hegemony had been obliterated.
  2. In the course of this fight, the German army would - at a time that could not yet be specified, but in any case in the clearly foreseeable future - gain the southern exit of Caucasus.
  3. As soon as this breakthrough was made, the Führer would offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the Vernichtung des...Judentums ['destruction of the Jewish element', sometimes taken to be a euphemism for 'annihilation of the Jews'] living under British protection in Arab lands.."


[/LIST]
there you go. in no uncertain terms either.

When did I say you couldn't you ignorant liar? The Israeli state has commited more terrorist attrocities than Hamas. You know the definition of terrorism by now, and Israeli are perhaps the largest terrorist force in the Middle-East.

Terrorism = An attack on civilians in order to gain a political or military advantage. It is extremely well documented that they have done this. I mean, they use Cluster bombs which are illegal. That's a terrorist attack. They use weapons with Depleted uranium. They use sulfurs which burn skin (Chemical warfare.)

They're terrorists. There is no doubt about that. Why should one terrorist group be condemned, when the other is not? It's just one of the many double standards Israel has become accustomed too.
well, i'm pretty sure you said it right here
That gives you no right to criticise the Palestinian people when others live in their land.
why should one group go condemned and another shouldn't? which is why i refer you to this nifty little website, with these interesting facts. "Israel is the target of at least 65 UN Resolutions and the Palestinians are the target of none."

UnResolutions against Palestine and Israel

mm, quite a double standard there. Hamas has had how many resolutions against them? count 'em, NONE!!! so yeah, double standards huh?

and since your usual fashion is to insult the person talking to you until they go away because they can't deal with your childish inability to talk rationally about something without losing your temper or your mind, you wont be surprised when i expect you to merely disparage me without even considering a single thing i've said. you've done so well at it so far.
 

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