Islam group urges forest fire jihad (3 Viewers)

[hiphophooray123]

LIGHTING BUSHFIRES IS TERRORISM! LOCK EM IN GUANTANAMO

This is fucking absurd. No it's not terrorism. Terrorism has a very strict definition. Lumping any and all dangerous things into a new, broad, undefined term of "terrorism" doesn't help anyone. What's next? Stealing motor vehicles is terrorism? Robbing people on the streets is terrorism? Fuck off this is ludicrous.

killing people is terrorism.

doesn't matter where in the chain of causation you are.

if it does in fact turn out that extremists did this, then yes, it is terrorism.

if extremists start to claim they lit this fire, it will cause terror...it will cause a state of fear....and since you want to use a strict definition of terrorism...then that fits the definition

disclaimer: i doubt believe terrorists did this. it was probably some dumb ass ladz

 

[justanotherposter]

For the points about charity and emotional needs, we have suitable substitutes of similar effect, namely humanism and non-denominational spiritualism. However, there is no greater or even similar motivator for acts of terrorism and war than ideoligical deifferences, with religion naturally topping the list of ideologies. Let's think back for the past 50 years and identify which wars would not have been there if it weren't for the ideological (esp. religious) differences on each side:
Well of course Afghanistan and the War on Terror wouldn't exist.
Iraq would have had no justification.
The Israeli-Palestinain conflict wouldn't occur because there is literally no difference between them except for religion.
The Sri Lankan Civil War would have been impossible without religion to divide them into Hindus and Buddhists.
India and Pakistan would still be one country.
Somalia would not be ripped apart by an Islamist insurgency.
The Balkans would have been silent.
The Iran-Iraq War wouldn't have occured because there would have been no Islamic Revolution in Tehran.
Vietnam would not have been split into Communist North and Liberal South.
The Six-Day War would never have occured.
The Soviets would never have gotten involved in Afghanistan but for the Islamists.
The Korean Peninsular would never have been divided and war wouldn't have broken out.
Hell, even the Second World War may never have occured, but for ideology.

So this leaves us with the Gulf War and the Central African conflict. Wow.

I think that there is more to the Israel-Palestine than just religion and making the assumption that worldwide atheism would've solved the conflict is pretty out there. It's mainly a territorial conflict in that the Palestinians want their own state and believe that the land that Israel is on is not rightfully theirs. I don't think this conflict would've been avoided had Israel and Palestine both been secular states. (I know, I know, Palestine isn't a state at all but you get what I mean).

Also what do you mean about the 6 day war? I think that was started when a bunch of Arab countries started to build up their forces around Israel which then resulted in a Pre-emptive strike by Israel? I don't think they attacked only because Israel was a Jewish state...

 

[moll.]

I think that there is more to the Israel-Palestine than just religion and making the assumption that worldwide atheism would've solved the conflict is pretty out there. It's mainly a territorial conflict in that the Palestinians want their own state and believe that the land that Israel is on is not rightfully theirs. I don't think this conflict would've been avoided had Israel and Palestine both been secular states. (I know, I know, Palestine isn't a state at all but you get what I mean).

Also what do you mean about the 6 day war? I think that was started when a bunch of Arab countries started to build up their forces around Israel which then resulted in a Pre-emptive strike by Israel? I don't think they attacked only because Israel was a Jewish state...

My point was that Israel as a state would never have existed, but for religion. The division placed between the two peoples of Palestine/Israel is purely a cultural and religious one (with culture being highly influenced by religion). They are biologically no different to one another. Therefore, their only source of continual divison is that they are from different religions.
Also, just because a state is secular, doesn't mean it's irreligious. Pakistan and India are both secular states.

 

[RogueAcademic]

My point was that Israel as a state would never have existed, but for religion. The division placed between the two peoples of Palestine/Israel is purely a cultural and religious one (with culture being highly influenced by religion).

Not quite right. If you look at history, The Romans introduced (or forced) Christianity into the Middle East during Roman rule. Many of the Jews were persecuted, were forced to convert or they fled. When the Arab Muslims began their domination of the Middle East after beating the Romans, the Muslims allowed Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Under Muslim rule, there was peace amongst all the religions for centuries. Religion was absolutely not the problem.

The modern-day Palestine/Israel division only really began as a result of WWI and WWII, it was political intervention from the West (and lack of understanding of Middle East politics/religion/culture) that allowed the problem to fester into what it is today.

It was politics, not religion that caused modern-day Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

 

[justanotherposter]

But then again Israel was created as a home for the Jews. Religion does have a big part to play here.

We are pretty off topic here aren't we :S?

 

[RogueAcademic]

But then again Israel was created as a home for the Jews. Religion does have a big part to play here.

Israel has been around since before Jesus was born, did you know that? It was when the Romans conquered the Middle East, they kicked the Jews out of Jerusalem and renamed it Palestine. So, Israel/Palestine was originally the home of the Jews. The (re-)creation of Israel as an independent State was simply a recognition of its history and of its people who have been exiled from their own homeland for many many years.

We are pretty off topic here aren't we :S?

There is so much misunderstanding of history that it distorts understanding of the current problems. I don't think we're off topic if we go right to the start and trace the proper steps back.

 

[greekgun]

Who gives a shit wat religion they are, wat nationality there are or wat ever makes them different - these people threatened to light fires as a form of "terroroism"- so i say lock em up in jail or kick them out before they start killing people by their "efficient ways of terrorism".

 

[RogueAcademic]

Who gives a shit wat religion they are, wat nationality there are or wat ever makes them different

This was exactly the kind of thinking from the West/UN that got the MiddleEast/world into this mess in the first place.

 

[XPac2]

This is terrorism and they should be shot dead!

 

[moll.]

Israel has been around since before Jesus was born, did you know that? It was when the Romans conquered the Middle East, they kicked the Jews out of Jerusalem and renamed it Palestine. So, Israel/Palestine was originally the home of the Jews. The (re-)creation of Israel as an independent State was simply a recognition of its history and of its people who have been exiled from their own homeland for many many years.

That is all (literally) ancient history. Modern day Israel was created as a homeland for the Jews. It was created in their ancient homeland, which just so happened to be populated almost entirely by Arab Muslims.
Now, biologically, Arabs and Semites are practically the same race. Any subtle differences between the two have long since disappeared through inbreeding. Therefore, a division along racial grounds would be impossible.
The only viable way of dividing the two people so as to continue the violence, hatred and war is (what do you know!) religion! Which was my point all along.

There is so much misunderstanding of history that it distorts understanding of the current problems. I don't think we're off topic if we go right to the start and trace the proper steps back.

No, there's not. It's really quite simple. History beyond the past one hundred years doesn't even come into it.
But just for the record, I am very well aware of the ancient history of the Holy Land, so your 6th grade history lessons are entirely unnecessary.

 

[moll.]

They would've found a reason to go to war. Warmongers always do.

Possibly, yes. There are always going to be psychopaths and warmongers. Civil wars along racial grounds would still occur. Most of Africa would still be divided by bitter rivalries as they fight for scarce resources. Dictators across the world would still maintain their grip upon power. The West may (hopefully) still get involved in conflict for humanitarian reasons or (hopefully not) for political reasons (as per Gulf War).
I acknowledge that a lack of religion isn't going to magically bring about world peace. But it would go a long way towards it.
Imagine if all of those conflicts I mentioned had never occured. Imagine the money and resources that could have been better spent on education, healthcare and humanitarian aid. Imagine how many people's lives would have been saved.

 

[RogueAcademic]

No, there's not. It's really quite simple. History beyond the past one hundred years doesn't even come into it.

History is important, because history shows that after the Roman Empire declined, Judaism, Christianity and Islam existed alongside each other for more than a thousand years in relative peace. I'll say it again - people with different religious and cultural backgrounds lived together in relative peace, as you also said here when you were talking about the very little biological difference from interbreeding and living together for generations:

Now, biologically, Arabs and Semites are practically the same race. Any subtle differences between the two have long since disappeared through inbreeding. Therefore, a division along racial grounds would be impossible.
The only viable way of dividing the two people so as to continue the violence, hatred and war is (what do you know!) religion!

So we know that people in the Middle East can live together in relative peace as they had for a thousand years. It wasn't until Western political influence (ie. meddling) through war and half-ass political mandates in the past 80 years or so that the trouble really started. The Cold War also had a big influence on the Middle East with the US v Russia influencing the politics of the region (eg. Russia-Egypt-Iran-US-Iraq). On top of that, it's also really an argument about 'home', whose 'home' is it, who deserves to call it 'home' more than the other. Not religion. But there are people out there, people like you who continue to say it's 'religion religion religion', that argument continues to distort the real political and cultural issues, and it continues to flame superficial issues rather than focusing on the real issues.

 

[moll.]

History is important, because history shows that after the Roman Empire declined, Judaism, Christianity and Islam existed alongside each other for more than a thousand years in relative peace. I'll say it again - people with different religious and cultural backgrounds lived together in relative peace, as you also said here when you were talking about the very little biological difference from interbreeding and living together for generations.

For starters, you have your history wrong.
Are you talking about the same Holy Land which was ripped apart by centuries of Christian-Muslim war during the Crusades? The same territory where Christians were fed to lions in a stadium full of pagans and Jews? Where Jews were stripped of their rights and freedom under Roman rule, and only given a few of them back under Muslim rule, making this seem so much more peaceful? Where Jews were enslaved by three different conquering empires? Where Islam was born under conditions of war on the Arabian Peninsular?
Also, the world was a vastly different place then. You could live in a village of 200 people and never have any need to contact the world outside your village. Try doing that now. Globalisation and overpopulation have made this impossible, such that we now have friction between groups of people because they are forced to search outside their borders for resources.

So we know that people in the Middle East can live together in relative peace as they had for a thousand years.

Fail.

It wasn't until Western political influence (ie. meddling) through war and half-ass political mandates in the past 80 years or so that the trouble really started. The Cold War also had a big influence on the Middle East with the US v Russia influencing the politics of the region (eg. Russia-Egypt-Iran-US-Iraq). On top of that, it's also really an argument about 'home', whose 'home' is it, who deserves to call it 'home' more than the other. Not religion. But there are people out there, people like you who continue to say it's 'religion religion religion', that argument continues to distort the real political and cultural issues, and it continues to flame superficial issues rather than focusing on the real issues.

Hahaha so now atheism is to blame for the continual bickering and fighting in the Middle East?

I'm also trying to avoid getting into argument about whether Israel deserves to be there or not and whose "home" it is, simply because it would take days worth of debating just to get back to where we started.
My main point to talking about religion causing wars was that mankind is already adept at find division and fault with others. Religion just unnecessarily adds to that problem by giving people another way to seperate themselves from others. Religion also happens to be something which we can change or abolish far easier than we can ethnic groups, economic disparity or resource endowment.

 

[RogueAcademic]

For starters, you have your history wrong.

And yet you've gone on and repeated what I've already explained in previous posts in this thread about Roman rule and subsequent Arab Muslim domination. And by bringing up the Crusades you're again supporting my point about Western meddling, and speaking of conquering nations you're making the point that it is political after all. Incidentally, the Roman Empire was more about political conquest and the might of the Empire than it is about religion.

The same territory where Christians were fed to lions in a stadium full of pagans and Jews? Where Jews were stripped of their rights and freedom under Roman rule, and only given a few of them back under Muslim rule, making this seem so much more peaceful?

haha .. you just answered your own question there.

Hahaha so now atheism is to blame for the continual bickering and fighting in the Middle East?

Where did I bring atheism into this...?

Religion just unnecessarily adds to that problem by giving people another way to seperate themselves from others.

Exactly! Religion isn't the fundamental problem, it "unnecessarily adds" to the problem. That's what I've been saying all along, it's the stupid people, not religion.

It's like trying to say hamburgers are the cause of the obesity problem - well no, the obesity problem lies with the obese person who doesn't know how to (or refuses to) regulate his/her diet. To use your words, blaming it on hamburgers only "unnecessarily adds" to the real issue. Now you understand.

 

[katie tully]

tl;dr

 

[Omie Jay]

tl;dr @ this whole thread

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

killing people is terrorism.

No

doesn't matter where in the chain of causation you are.

Quite wrong

if it does in fact turn out that extremists did this, then yes, it is terrorism.

Incorrect

if extremists start to claim they lit this fire, it will cause terror

I'm afraid not

...it will cause a state of fear

I disagree

....and since you want to use a strict definition of terrorism...then that fits the definition

Absolutely not

 

[Kwayera]

I don't know, I find bushfires pretty damned terrifying.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Osama Bin Laden: Let us wage jihad by lighting small fires which have a small, but existant chance of wiping out some property! That ought to show the infidels how wrong their religion is hmm? Allah akbar!

 

[Kwayera]

*quakes*