Is this fair? (2 Viewers)

[zenger69]

I tied 2nd with a another student in Ext I.

Even though I beat her in terms of raw marks but because those marks were rounded down we both got the same mark in the end.

Is this following all the board of studies guidelines or do I have a reason to put in a complaint to the principal?

 

[04er]

i don't see why you're concerned. Whether you're equal first or outright first at school will make no difference in the end.

edit: sorry, just realised that you came equal 2nd (not 1st). Still, I dont think that makes a difference in terms of your own final mark (because either way, you would've been 2nd anyway... even though you got rounded down, it wasn't by a significant amount... and if everyone at your school was rounded down it is most definitely fair - i know for a fact that this occurs at other schools, including mine).

All the best for your HSC exam

 

[zenger69]

doesn't the rank count?

like make a huge difference towards my UAI?

 

[gman03]

doesn't the rank count?

like make a huge difference towards my UAI?

It does if she will do really bad compare to you because she will take half of your mark..

Otherwise it doesn't affects you

 

[Ragerunner]

Saying she will take half your mark sounds confusing.

What happens is the 2nd and 3rd highest exam mark are averaged and awarded to both students that are tied second.

This method takes account of rank. Because you both came tied second, the average of the 2nd and 3rd highest are given to both of you, while the highest mark is still awarded to the first place holder.

Even if you were second, and the other person was third, the very minor difference in marks between the 2 of you is almost but not entirely negligible.

 

[meLoncoLLie]

Last year, anyone with an aggregate of 483.0 to 497.4 would've gotten a UAI of 100.00. Fair?

 

[zenger69]

yeh pretty fair....

thanks everyone

 

[Lazarus]

It might have mattered if you were ranked first... but if you're not first or last, it doesn't really matter whether you're tied or not.

 

[gorgo31]

Lazarus - adding on to that, I've never really understood what happens in circumstances of equal 1st. I am equal first in two subjects - one is a three-way tie. Will the highest exam mark become the school mark for all students, or is it an average of 1st and 2nd (and in one case third) exam marks? Thanks.

 

[fleepbasding]

Lazarus - adding on to that, I've never really understood what happens in circumstances of equal 1st. I am equal first in two subjects - one is a three-way tie. Will the highest exam mark become the school mark for all students, or is it an average of 1st and 2nd (and in one case third) exam marks? Thanks.

Here is something I posted a while back, the first chunk is just the basics of being ranked number 1 and the second is what happens when 2 (or more) people are ranked 1st.

Lazarus said it was correct

Just thought I'd confirm that what you've said is correct, fleepbasding.

Casmira's post isn't technically correct, but it can be a useful way of thinking about the whole process.

Here it is...

"Rank number one has the special privelige of being exempt from the moderation process (the process by which your class might 'drag' you up or down). Your rank number 1 is potentialy as valuable as the rank number one of a selective school or anything. Rank number one means that your classes highest exam mark will become your internal assesment mark. So say you get the highest HSC exam mark in your class with 93 or something then 93 will be your internal assesment mark (and thus your entire HSC mark because your exam mark is also 93). If someone else in the class gets the highest exam mark, then that exam mark will become your internal assesment. In this scenario if you got 80 in the exam and your classmate got 90, then you would get 90 as your internal assesment mark and 80 as your exam mark, meaning a final HSC mark of 85. So to answer your question, no. When you are number one, your class can be as shit as you like but this won't drag you down."

In the case of two people coming equal first...

"If two people are coming 1st then the two highest exam marks will be averaged and the two top students will recieve that for their internal assesment marks. For example, say the two number ones receive 94 and 88 for their exams. For their internal assesment mark, these two exam marks (assuming they are the highest exam marks in the class) are averaged ((94+88) divided by 2= 91). So they both receive 91 for their internal assesment marks and once these are averaged with their respective exam marks, so for their final HSC marks they will each recieve 92.5 (93) and 89.5 (90). I hope this is clear enough, and if their are any errors in what I've said, then by all means, somebody correct me! But, to answer your question- yes. essentially the same applies dor equal firsts, though the conditions I've described are imposed."

Hope this has helped. The process that happens to ranks other than first (and last) is more complex. Casmira's post is incorrect I think. Though I'm not much of a maths kid, so I can't explain it.

post number 7 in this thread: http://community.boredofstudies.org/showthread.php?t=85704

Hope this has sorted it out for ya!

 

[04er]

"If two people are coming 1st then the two highest exam marks will be averaged and the two top students will recieve that for their internal assesment marks...."

omg if that's true then its too harsh..........

 

[fleepbasding]

omg if that's true then its too harsh..........

It is true. Harsh indeed. But not worth worrying about at this stage considering the exams are in a few days.

 

[helper]

Why harsh, you both have showed that you perform at the same level, why should the rest of your class be pulled down because one of you doesn't perform on the day?

 

[fleepbasding]

Why harsh, you both have showed that you perform at the same level, why should the rest of your class be pulled down because one of you doesn't perform on the day?

I don't quite understand your point?

We just meant it was 'harsh' on the person who's ranked equally 1st. 'Harsh' is not really the right word, but it would suck (a little) knowing that if your co-1st does shit in the exam then you are going to get dragged down.

 

[helper]

The point is assessment is not a reflection of the exam. Your assessment is a reflection of how you have worked over the year compared to your class. Being equal first in your assessments is indicating that you have been working to the same level throughout the year.
The exam result is a reflection of how you are on the day of the exam. The assessment is not an estimate of your exam.
If we want the assessment to be a reflection of the exam, then throw out assessment tasks and just have an exam mark.

Now back to why it would be unfair to link both to the top exam mark.
1. Both students have to obtain the same assessment mark as that is how they have been all year.
2. You link them to the top single exam mark, you drag the mean of the class up artificially as both students haven't worked to this level during the exams.
3. To overcome the artificial dragging of the mean up, it means the mean of the rest of the students in the class has to be dragged down to compensate.
4. So all the other students who have not been working to the same standard are artificially dropped even further behind the top two than they have performed during the year.

The idea of pegging first was to ensure in smaller class groups, that first wasn't pulled in by the standard deviation of a group during moderation. By averaging the equal first two or more students, it is still doing the same thing as what it was meant to do. It wasn't meant to be a bonus for coming first.

 

[fleepbasding]

The point is assessment is not a reflection of the exam. Your assessment is a reflection of how you have worked over the year compared to your class. Being equal first in your assessments is indicating that you have been working to the same level throughout the year.
The exam result is a reflection of how you are on the day of the exam. The assessment is not an estimate of your exam.
If we want the assessment to be a reflection of the exam, then throw out assessment tasks and just have an exam mark.

Now back to why it would be unfair to link both to the top exam mark.
1. Both students have to obtain the same assessment mark as that is how they have been all year.
2. You link them to the top single exam mark, you drag the mean of the class up artificially as both students haven't worked to this level during the exams.
3. To overcome the artificial dragging of the mean up, it means the mean of the rest of the students in the class has to be dragged down to compensate.
4. So all the other students who have not been working to the same standard are artificially dropped even further behind the top two than they have performed during the year.

The idea of pegging first was to ensure in smaller class groups, that first wasn't pulled in by the standard deviation of a group during moderation. By averaging the equal first two or more students, it is still doing the same thing as what it was meant to do. It wasn't meant to be a bonus for coming first.

yes, all very true and good. I realise that this is how the system was designed and it's purposes/function is exactly as described. But when one is in the position of being equal first it is naturally a little irriating. The base human response is to think "I am better than them! Their exam mark is going to drag my internal assesment down!". I'm all for the way the system is designed now, I guess I'm really talking about cases where the school rounds the assesment marks so that two people become first when really one of them was slightly ahead. Anyway, I accept and agree with all your points. I withdraw my statement that it is a harsh rule, it just might seem that way when it happens to you.

 

[helper]

I feel strange defending it because I am one of those people who perform better in exams under stress. I hate having to work consistently. Give me a dead line and a tight time limit.
If you can't work under stress, then thats your bad luck. Bring back exams only.

 

[Ragerunner]

The point to make is that it is perhaps as fair as it can get.

I can't really think of any other fair way to moderate the assessment marks of 2 or 3 equally first students other than the current method. It needs to take account that every school in the state will be moderated in the same way to ensure consistency and fairness. And the current method does it nicely.

 

[Captain pi]

What evidence is there that in cases of two people being ranked first internally the assessment mark for them is the mean of the top two examination marks?

I have evidence to the contrary: two students who ranked equal first internally. In the external exam, the top two exam marks were 96 and 94. Both received an Assessment Mark of 96.

 

[fleepbasding]

What evidence is there that in cases of two people being ranked first internally the assessment mark for them is the mean of the top two examination marks?

I have evidence to the contrary: two students who ranked equal first internally. In the external exam, the top two exam marks were 96 and 94. Both received an Assessment Mark of 96.

Are you absolutly certain about that?

I don't have any evidence myself but I believe an example would be that kid Ivan in ext 2 maths last year... who was tied equal first and didn't top the state as a result? I don't know about that one, but I'm sure there are examples.