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Is it possible to be among the best without coaching? (1 Viewer)

enoilgam

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You have no right to make such an assertion. Perhaps they both are aiming for an ATAR well into the 99's, in which case making a general plan of approach is a good idea at a young age. They don't seem to be over-thinking anything, their concerns are rather valid, just as valid as your point of view where you weren't affected by any of this (which is also fine).
Ohh, you misunderstood me. I was being a bit sarcastic to illustrate a point (I dont think that all Ruse kids are heavily coached). There is nothing wrong with making a plan at a young age, but I am unsure of exactly what the OP is getting at. I am trying to get them to answer my initial question which is, what do they want for their daughter's education. I am asking this because I cannot understand what the OP is looking for with this thread.
 

iSplicer

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Ohh, you misunderstood me. I was being a bit sarcastic to illustrate a point (I dont think that all Ruse kids are heavily coached). There is nothing wrong with making a plan at a young age, but I am unsure of exactly what the OP is getting at. I am trying to get them to answer my initial question which is, what do they want for their daughter's education. I am asking this because I cannot understand what the OP is looking for with this thread.
Fair call, apologies for any misunderstanding.

Also, completely agreed on the bolded part, now that I think about it. OPs concerns are valid (we all want the best for ourselves and our children), but what exactly are those concerns?
 

oasfree

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Fair call, apologies for any misunderstanding.

Also, completely agreed on the bolded part, now that I think about it. OPs concerns are valid (we all want the best for ourselves and our children), but what exactly are those concerns?
I have stated my concerns. We have a tutoring free culture and like to have a relaxed school life. I had one and I like my child to have it too. We want balance and a bit of hard work but not too much of it. So we turned down James Ruse to go to private. But we found same pressure. Those who are not on scholarship pay up to their eyeballs. Those on scholarship are expected to help the school match up with the best of selective schools (ATAR 99+). So the kids in the top group are mostly tutored. Combined tutoring and their intelligence and diligence, it is very hard to keep pace with them. You don't get a scholarship and hope to relax and enjoy a nice school environment! That is against the very reason they offer you a scholarship to start with. So our problem is to join the tutoring crowd or keep our more relaxed way. It is not so bad right now but unless my child can turn a tight corner in a couple of areas, she will be under real pressure. It is easy for people not in the situation to suggest getting out of competition but it is never easy. Competition is every where. The shorter term concern is that scholarship comes with condition of "acceptable" performance which is never defined (deliberately left undefined by all top private schools). I suppose it could be understood as being among the top 10 students.

Obviously my child would have to work harder with her own freewill before we would even think about getting some tutoring. Tutoring costs time and money and would also introduce more work and more stress. We want the best for kids but that goes as far as giving them a chance to pick a future career of their choice. The way it looks right now it is very tough for kids to pick what they really like without a good ATAR.

I understand what people are saying here about improving English by getting the kid to do more writing and get some one to mark. But I am not confident about marking her writing. cannot really mark my child's writing. So it begs the question of finding a tutor or not.
 

deswa1

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I have stated my concerns. We have a tutoring free culture and like to have a relaxed school life. I had one and I like my child to have it too. We want balance and a bit of hard work but not too much of it. So we turned down James Ruse to go to private. But we found same pressure. Those who are not on scholarship pay up to their eyeballs. Those on scholarship are expected to help the school match up with the best of selective schools (ATAR 99+). So the kids in the top group are mostly tutored. Combined tutoring and their intelligence and diligence, it is very hard to keep pace with them. You don't get a scholarship and hope to relax and enjoy a nice school environment! That is against the very reason they offer you a scholarship to start with. So our problem is to join the tutoring crowd or keep our more relaxed way. It is not so bad right now but unless my child can turn a tight corner in a couple of areas, she will be under real pressure. It is easy for people not in the situation to suggest getting out of competition but it is never easy. Competition is every where. The shorter term concern is that scholarship comes with condition of "acceptable" performance which is never defined (deliberately left undefined by all top private schools). I suppose it could be understood as being among the top 10 students.

Obviously my child would have to work harder with her own freewill before we would even think about getting some tutoring. Tutoring costs time and money and would also introduce more work and more stress. We want the best for kids but that goes as far as giving them a chance to pick a future career of their choice. The way it looks right now it is very tough for kids to pick what they really like without a good ATAR.

I understand what people are saying here about improving English by getting the kid to do more writing and get some one to mark. But I am not confident about marking her writing. cannot really mark my child's writing. So it begs the question of finding a tutor or not.
See all the bolded bits- these are all the areas where you are telling us you want your child to relax. If you want your child to relax, and she wants to relax, why place all this pressure on her? What exactly are you trying to get out of posting here? You want a balanced life, I agree with you as she's only Y8 so don't take her to tutoring and have that balanced life. You are placing the pressure on her, not the school. If she doesn't do well, she might lose the scholarship but that is the decision you make. You can take the risk of forfeiting the scholarship and then just go to a cheaper private, or local school or selective or anything and live the balanced life, which in year 8, personally I would do. If she is a .95 Ruse genius, then her marks will shine naturally when they count.

About the marking, don't mark it yourself- she has an english teacher for a reason. Surely those paying $25K expect some sort of service? Get her to hand in writing and her teacher will mark it.

Condensed version: Don't place pressure on her.
 

enoilgam

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See all the bolded bits- these are all the areas where you are telling us you want your child to relax. If you want your child to relax, and she wants to relax, why place all this pressure on her? What exactly are you trying to get out of posting here? You want a balanced life, I agree with you as she's only Y8 so don't take her to tutoring and have that balanced life. You are placing the pressure on her, not the school. If she doesn't do well, she might lose the scholarship but that is the decision you make. You can take the risk of forfeiting the scholarship and then just go to a cheaper private, or local school or selective or anything and live the balanced life, which in year 8, personally I would do. If she is a .95 Ruse genius, then her marks will shine naturally when they count.

About the marking, don't mark it yourself- she has an english teacher for a reason. Surely those paying $25K expect some sort of service? Get her to hand in writing and her teacher will mark it.

Condensed version: Don't place pressure on her.
Couldnt agree more with this.
 

oasfree

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About the marking, don't mark it yourself- she has an english teacher for a reason. Surely those paying $25K expect some sort of service? Get her to hand in writing and her teacher will mark it.

Condensed version: Don't place pressure on her.
Pressure is on kids regardless where they go. If it is simple as you think, no one would send kids to top selective schools or elite private schools so that the kids can benefit from working along side the tough academic kids. It's just the mad tutoring culture imported from Asia that is bringing so much more pressure. Some people from Asia came here to avoid that pressure, but it came along too. People avoid selective schools to run away from that pressure, but it comes to private schools too.

I will get a chance to talk to the English teacher and see if there will be some help. But there are lots of students who need help as well. Hopefully I can get the teacher to offer some essay topics and help to mark. MOst people won't bother. They just send kids to tutoring.
 

deswa1

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Pressure is on kids regardless where they go. If it is simple as you think, no one would send kids to top selective schools or elite private schools so that the kids can benefit from working along side the tough academic kids. It's just the mad tutoring culture imported from Asia that is bringing so much more pressure. Some people from Asia came here to avoid that pressure, but it came along too. People avoid selective schools to run away from that pressure, but it comes to private schools too.

I will get a chance to talk to the English teacher and see if there will be some help. But there are lots of students who need help as well. Hopefully I can get the teacher to offer some essay topics and help to mark. MOst people won't bother. They just send kids to tutoring.
I disagree with this. You feel as much pressure as you put on yourself. I go to a selective school and until senior years, I didn't feel any pressure because I knew I didn't NEED to come first in junior years- I just took it as it came. If though you feel you have to come first, then obviously that leads to pressure.
 

enoilgam

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Honestly, this has to be one of the most confusing and ambiguous threads I have seen on the site. OP I dont think you have a very strong knowledge of what the current school system is like. Most of the people responding in this thread (deswa1, thief and myself) are going through the school system or have been through it in recent times. Yes, there is somewhat of a "coaching" culture amongst top schools, but I dont think its to the extreme extent which you are making out and it isnt really going to torpedo a non-coached students chances of success.

The fact of the matter is, if you want to succeed in anything, you are going to face significant pressure and that is nearly inescapable. I went to an ordinary high school ranked in the middle of the state and I was under a lot of pressure. But that pressure was coming from within - the school wasnt very pushy, my parents werent pushy and my cohort overall wasnt very competitive.

Also, I think you are placing too much of an emphasis on her secondary education. Yes, secondary education is very important and a high ATAR can open many doors for you, but if you dont do well in the HSC that doesnt mean you are doomed to a menial profession. Once you get to uni, you realise that the HSC isnt the life changing apocalypse people make it out to be. There are many opportunities to move across courses and degrees. Also, things change a lot in uni and high school success doesnt always translate to uni success (a friend of mine got 77 in the HSC, but now he is almost at the top of his degree with a near HD average).

From what you have said, your daughter sounds quite intelligent. Try to have faith that she will find her way. A person who is motivated, has a strong work ethic and the necessary talent will succeed. No "coaching culture" is going to change that.
 

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Honestly, this has to be one of the most confusing and ambiguous threads I have seen on the site. OP I dont think you have a very strong knowledge of what the current school system is like. Most of the people responding in this thread (deswa1, thief and myself) are going through the school system or have been through it in recent times. Yes, there is somewhat of a "coaching" culture amongst top schools, but I dont think its to the extreme extent which you are making out and it isnt really going to torpedo a non-coached students chances of success.

The fact of the matter is, if you want to succeed in anything, you are going to face significant pressure and that is nearly inescapable. I went to an ordinary high school ranked in the middle of the state and I was under a lot of pressure. But that pressure was coming from within - the school wasnt very pushy, my parents werent pushy and my cohort overall wasnt very competitive.

Also, I think you are placing too much of an emphasis on her secondary education. Yes, secondary education is very important and a high ATAR can open many doors for you, but if you dont do well in the HSC that doesnt mean you are doomed to a menial profession. Once you get to uni, you realise that the HSC isnt the life changing apocalypse people make it out to be. There are many opportunities to move across courses and degrees. Also, things change a lot in uni and high school success doesnt always translate to uni success (a friend of mine got 77 in the HSC, but now he is almost at the top of his degree with a near HD average).

From what you have said, your daughter sounds quite intelligent. Try to have faith that she will find her way. A person who is motivated, has a strong work ethic and the necessary talent will succeed. No "coaching culture" is going to change that.
Very true. I attend a private school and I can tell you now, there are numerous people from my school who succeed way beyond the people who have tuition at my school as reflected in the past HSCs. Mainly, a few of my friends are scholars and I know for a fact that they have never had tuition in their entire life. This is not to say, that they are struggling against the 60 to 70% of students who have tuition, far from it. They continue to maintain consistent grades and needless to say, are close to or already topping my school.

Often at times, I observe my scholar friends very closely and they tell me something that is quite crucial in schools. I learnt that wherever you go, whatever you do, no doubt always requires some form of effort to reach a goal. Some people who do not do tuition instead, compete against the brightest by going in depth on their studies and expanding. By reading books related to the topic in their spare time. By getting involved with excursions and programs that relate to the topic. I've found that's what the majority of scholars do in my school and no doubt, they are performing extremely well, but more importantly, they're getting something out of learning beyond simple rote learning and tuition.

Your thread and questions are very ambiguous as Enoilgam has said. I am treating that your thread title is the question which you want answered. Simply, yes it is possible to be amongst the best without tuition. Is it easy? No, life is not easy and obviously the amount of effort and determination you place in something, will ultimately determine where you stand. For goodness sake, your daughter is in year 8, she is how old? Maybe 12 or 13? Give children like her a break. I for one, cannot judge your methodologies upon your daughter, but I really am saying now, do not worry too much about schooling. I am a half scholar at school and yes, I have Asian parents. What do they tell me when I get a mark of 80? "If you tried your best and worked to your maximum potential, we are happy." Now, I could not wish it any other way. If your daughter is trying her best and she knows she is, there is absolutely no reason to place any pressure upon her.

I understand, that your daughter is a scholar, well done. Do you actually know the characteristics that all scholars in schools should have? They are meant to be well rounded students with intellectual curiosity, a great depth of interest in particular areas and a willingness to contribute to school life in all endeavours. Schools count on scholars to enrich their environment. Rather then making our daughter stress, let her endeavour to pursue her interests, contribute to the school more often and live life because you know, there is definitely more to life then exam results.
 

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Everything seems to have been mostly said already.

Any student can do well in the HSC if they're motivated enough, but it can't come from sending them to x y z tutoring, they should be motivated themselves.

And I never went to tutoring in Yr11-12, and I'm doing quite well I think. I've noticed a trend that many of the top students themselves don't go to tutoring and learn by themselves, and with the host of online resources available these days. Plus you'll save $10000-25000 in the long run if your child doesn't go to tutoring, and they might learn to be a little more independent.
 
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Yes, you see this is an issue. If you turn down James Ruse, you know you cannot come back to a public selective school even if you want to. At least until year 10 anyway by sitting for a special entry test. A normal comprehensive HS is the thing that many parents and students don't want at the first place as teachers will cater mainly for average students. We make a choice to avoid the fierce competition in a top selective school. We land into an equally fierce competitive class of much smaller size.

What I see is that we cannot escape. Running away from tutored students only mean we land in another place full of tutored students. So my kid is hanging around mainly with untutored students who are more relaxed. But it won't surprise me that her untutored friends may also get some limited but very private tutoring by the very best teachers. Their parents have a lot of cash to burn if they need to. It is not easy to befriend heavily tutored students unless my child is extremely sociable and average in academic performance. Not that she likes to befriend grumpy workaholics, but it is hard because workaholics don't like those who don't work hard and share the suffering. So she wants to be with the relaxed students but at end of each year, she would want to get up and get awards like the workaholics. Top academic girls spy on scholarship status and rumour like crazy. Some of them are so rude as to ask "Are you on 100% scholarship?" That is really nasty because the only way to answer is to lie or to say "I don't want to talk about it". The school told parents to tell kids NOT to talk about it. You kind of make a nemesis for no reason.

Anyway, it feels like you win some and lose some regardless of what choice you make.
bold part: you do realise that you can still try for a public selective school in year 8 and 9 ... I have a couple of friends who transferred in year 9 and 8 so if you really have this concern with the system of private schools I'm sure your daughter won't have trouble switching back judging from what you've said about her.
 

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Your kid doesn't happen to go to Ascham does she?

Yes there is pressure but not the extent your suggesting, she is in year 8!

Ascham is the private school with the most pressure on students with their implementation of the 'Dalton Plan'. BOSers google it if your not sure.

Let her have fun don't worry about grades, it comes naturally! She will realize in Yr 10-11 that she needs to work harder and she will. With regard to the gas petal, start pushing it in Yr 11 but NOT HARD, dont let her burn out. I have a friend who topped three subjects of his five in Yr 11 but he's burnt out in Yr 12, no motivation - he used it all in Yr 11.

Also another friendly reminder - Yr 12 starts in term 4 of Yr 11, thats usually a soft point in most Yr 12 students - they are all still in the 'Yr 11 mindset'. Be sure to push her ahead then, I speak from personal experience that 85% of my cohort didnt take term 4 of Yr 11 seriously.

Another option is to post a few of her essays on BOS, some of us are happy to read a younglings work and help her improve!

Steve
 

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Your kid doesn't happen to go to Ascham does she?

Yes there is pressure but not the extent your suggesting, she is in year 8!

Ascham is the private school with the most pressure on students with their implementation of the 'Dalton Plan'. BOSers google it if your not sure.

Let her have fun don't worry about grades, it comes naturally! She will realize in Yr 10-11 that she needs to work harder and she will. With regard to the gas petal, start pushing it in Yr 11 but NOT HARD, dont let her burn out. I have a friend who topped three subjects of his five in Yr 11 but he's burnt out in Yr 12, no motivation - he used it all in Yr 11.

Also another friendly reminder - Yr 12 starts in term 4 of Yr 11, thats usually a soft point in most Yr 12 students - they are all still in the 'Yr 11 mindset'. Be sure to push her ahead then, I speak from personal experience that 85% of my cohort didnt take term 4 of Yr 11 seriously.

Another option is to post a few of her essays on BOS, some of us are happy to read a younglings work and help her improve!

Steve
No.

This whole concept of 'burning out' is the biggest joke in the world. If you're passionate about achieving something, you'll have no problem putting in the work to pursue it, no matter how much it is. "Burning out" is just a concept used by beta-students to justify their laziness, or simply the fact that they don't crave success as much as they'd like to think.

Just to clarify: this shouldn't even be a problem in Year 8. Just let the kid have fun for now.
 
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