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Immigrants and the Australian Identity (2 Viewers)

Do you consider yourself as an Australian???

  • Yes

    Votes: 54 83.1%
  • No

    Votes: 11 16.9%

  • Total voters
    65

Crestwood's_G

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do you consider yourselves Australian??? what is the definition of an Australian??? Aboriginals are the only REAL Australians..i see a lot of middle-easterners (not all of them im talking about the hard cunts that hang at the shops) dont call themselves Australian...they think its associated as being a skip or something...and they wonder why theres racism???

do you class yourself as Aussie???
 

*Minka*

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Re: If you're from another background or have parents from one and you're born in Aus

Well, I was born in Croatia and grew up in Zagreb and Belgrade and am Croatian/Serbian - lived there until late 1994 before spending some time in a Switzerland refugee camp before coming to Australia.

I consder myself to be Croatian/Serbian/Australian because Australia has become a huge part of who I am, but at the same time, I havn't lost where I have come from either. You've got to know where you come from.
 

bettini

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My parents are Chinese but were born in Vietnam. I'm born and bred here:) !.. i consider myself Australian.. but i guess for some people.. working out whether one is Aust. or not depends on your def. of Australian..
i mean i was born here, i live here, i speak english at home and everywhere i go, my group is v. multicultural -- there are skips, belgians, indians, a viet, polish, italian -- i play bckyrd cricket!.. lol.. all i'm missing is a few more generations of australians before me and me saying "Bloody Oath!"
 

loquasagacious

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My mother is english and I can claim brit citizenship. Via my father I can trace back to first fleeters. I was born here, grew up here, etc my friends are from varied backgrounds. I reject a large part of australias 'ocker culture' however I consider myself Australian.

I also acknowledge, accept and embrace my other cultural background, being british and Irish - especially the later as St Patricks day approaches.
 
K

katie_tully

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I eat pizza, thus I embrace my Italian heritage.
I dress up as a leprechaun on St Pats because I love Irish people. I don't know why, but they're just awesome. If I could claim any other heritage, it would be teh Irish.
I back Australia in sport and I think Australian culture is dead. Why? Because we forgot what our (well mainly your) forefathers did for this country.
This country was built by a desire to overcome adversity. The convicts built the foundations of this country with their own hands. Bushrangers gave us our own folklore, A.B Patterson gave us poetry and our Diggers gave us freedom.

And now look at us? What did our (your) Diggers die for? Did they die for us to become ashamed of what we are? Did they die so that embracing the Australian flag is a racist gesture? So that people who hate our way of life can stand out against us?
We cannot even speak out in our own country for fear of being branded racist. If you dare suggest that a small group of whatever race/religion hates our country, then you are accused of condemning the entire race!
Aboriginals are protesting at the Commonwealth Games, refering to it as the Stolenwealth Games and want to know why they cannot represent themselves?! And yet we're still getting told that WE, white Australians are the ones pushing Aborignals away?
It seems like we're the only ones trying to make an effort, but everybody else sees the word 'Australian' as a dirty word.
 

HotShot

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katie_tully said:
I eat pizza, thus I embrace my Italian heritage.
I dress up as a leprechaun on St Pats because I love Irish people. I don't know why, but they're just awesome. If I could claim any other heritage, it would be teh Irish.
I back Australia in sport and I think Australian culture is dead. Why? Because we forgot what our (well mainly your) forefathers did for this country.
This country was built by a desire to overcome adversity. The convicts built the foundations of this country with their own hands. Bushrangers gave us our own folklore, A.B Patterson gave us poetry and our Diggers gave us freedom.

And now look at us? What did our (your) Diggers die for? Did they die for us to become ashamed of what we are? Did they die so that embracing the Australian flag is a racist gesture? So that people who hate our way of life can stand out against us?
We cannot even speak out in our own country for fear of being branded racist. If you dare suggest that a small group of whatever race/religion hates our country, then you are accused of condemning the entire race!
Aboriginals are protesting at the Commonwealth Games, refering to it as the Stolenwealth Games and want to know why they cannot represent themselves?! And yet we're still getting told that WE, white Australians are the ones pushing Aborignals away?
It seems like we're the only ones trying to make an effort, but everybody else sees the word 'Australian' as a dirty word.
i dont think thats true.. most people think australia as the most diverse nation in culture. Its aussies tolerance, which is the way of an australian, the ability to adapt in any situation. 'if you suggest that a small group of whatever race/religion hates our country' - that statement is just so negative, of course people will criticise you. the same happens around the world and not only in australia. bushrangers did jackshit except hunt abos, and the diggers had no choice thanks to britain.
 

frog12986

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Well said Katie..The problems of political correctness have been a major contributing factor to the denial of Australian history/culture and hence a blurring of what actually is the "Australian Identity". To refer to the Aborigines as "original Australians" is absurd in my opinon. The term "Australia" would not exist if it were not for the European imperialist rivalry of the day..I have an aboriginal friend, who despises the continual resentment displayed by many parts of the community. Her attitude is based around the fact that it happened over 200 years ago in context which was surrounded by the imperialist endeavour; the norm of the day. Fundamentally, she believes it really is time to move on, be proud to be Aboriginal and utilise the benefits of western society to better themselves..(or as Arnie would say "Stop Whining")..

I wrote in another thread about the greatest asset that the Australian culture offers; Katie also mentioned it. The opportunity for the individual to derive a life/future, from virtually nothing. The persistance and drive to better not only yourself, but the situation for the generations to come. Instead of recogising assests such as these, we're continually pandering to the voices of the minorities and their plight to erode what was once a proud passionate nation. How does a newly arrived immigrant adopt any form of Australian Identity, or have the desire to do so, if the media and the like purport it to be some kind of evil...
 

HotShot

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frog12986 said:
Well said Katie..The problems of political correctness have been a major contributing factor to the denial of Australian history/culture and hence a blurring of what actually is the "Australian Identity". To refer to the Aborigines as "original Australians" is absurd in my opinon. The term "Australia" would not exist if it were not for the European imperialist rivalry of the day..I have an aboriginal friend, .
sad.. Australia wouldnt exist for Britain- why dont u call yourself pommies, after there is very little difference. or why dont u call yourselves americans?

the aborigines were there first, they were the ones looking after the land, ensuring balance. they were the 'original inhabitants' and thus when the country was claimed to be named 'australia' the land remains the same, it did not change or move -tats geographical correctness for u. the aborignies did not move from their, they have been here longer than most 'australians', and yet you fail to recognise them as the original australians.


i guess thats what the diggers did for us.. allowed americans to take over our cultural values.
 
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HotShot

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Schroedinger said:
Why are you arguing semantics? They're Australian because they were in Australia. We're in Australia so we're Australian too.

I think it's the general resent that we are forced to deal with now, what was an acceptable ideology at the time...

And maybe the fact that we're constantly told we're not "Real" Australians.
no i just remarking on frog kates claim that - 'aboriginies werent the original australians'

but yes the aborigines need to accpet the environment in and exploit it for their benefit. - which only a few are doing.
 

frog12986

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HotShot said:
sad.. Australia wouldnt exist for Britain- why dont u call yourself pommies, after there is very little difference. or why dont u call yourselves americans?

the aborigines were there first, they were the ones looking after the land, ensuring balance. they were the 'original inhabitants' and thus when the country was claimed to be named 'australia' the land remains the same, it did not change or move -tats geographical correctness for u. the aborignies did not move from their, they have been here longer than most 'australians', and yet you fail to recognise them as the original australians.


i guess thats what the diggers did for us.. allowed americans to take over our cultural values.
People like you are a huge part of the problem. I said the term "Australia" you goose, not the very existence of people on this land. The aborigines did in fact move here, from the north. There is spectulation it occurred 40-60000 years ago, but precisely noone has a definite answer. First 'known' inhabitants maybe..are Americans really Americans?, Germans really Germans? or the French really French?. The fact is, that the nation state is a relatively new concept and just because some group of people inhabited the site of that nation state previously, does not automatically make them the 'Original Germans', French, Americans, or Chinese..

If you believe that Australia hold US values, you are living in a dream world. Spend a year or two in the US and you will see the entirley different way of life, the exorbitantly different mannerisms and a totally different perception of the world. Stop regurgitating the same old excuses the reverberate throughout the vast majority of the media...
 

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I was born here, bred here, went to Aussie schools, eat aussie food (those which are not restricted to my diet) and speak and write english fluently, therefore I'm Australian. My parents are Australian also, both speak and write english, my dad has aussie customers and, even though he's Pakistani by birth, he always say "G'day mate" whenever he greets a customer. He even uses the term "bloody".
 

HotShot

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frog12986 said:
People like you are a huge part of the problem. I said the term "Australia" you goose, not the very existence of people on this land. The aborigines did in fact move here, from the north. There is spectulation it occurred 40-60000 years ago, but precisely noone has a definite answer. First 'known' inhabitants maybe..are Americans really Americans?, Germans really Germans? or the French really French?. The fact is, that the nation state is a relatively new concept and just because some group of people inhabited the site of that nation state previously, does not automatically make them the 'Original Germans', French, Americans, or Chinese..

If you believe that Australia hold US values, you are living in a dream world. Spend a year or two in the US and you will see the entirley different way of life, the exorbitantly different mannerisms and a totally different perception of the world. Stop regurgitating the same old excuses the reverberate throughout the vast majority of the media...
Firstly, they were original inhabitant, 'speculation they came from the north' well australia the land itself was further north connecting to India. that is not speculation, it is known they came from the north - regardless they are the original inhabitants. it does in this case make aboriginals 'original austtralians', definetly those from britain were not 'the first australians' cos they were british. but ever since australia was deemed a national identity- the aborigines who had no national identity, where the first australians. i think it is important u recognise this.

And as for american values, i have lived in california, and i can say australia is becoming more and more american. just things we watch on tv, the movies, the products on sale, the food etc is moving towards america.
it is true though that australians have different perception of the world, but i feel that too is changing.
 
K

katie_tully

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HotShot said:
i dont think thats true.. most people think australia as the most diverse nation in culture. Its aussies tolerance, which is the way of an australian, the ability to adapt in any situation. 'if you suggest that a small group of whatever race/religion hates our country' - that statement is just so negative, of course people will criticise you. the same happens around the world and not only in australia. bushrangers did jackshit except hunt abos, and the diggers had no choice thanks to britain.
Are you insane? Do you know anything about Australian history?
The original Diggers went to war because they wanted to show Britain and the world that Australia was strong. They wanted to show case their young men. We did feel obliged to go because of Britain, but they would have gone regardless.

Please indicate to me which specific bushrangers did 'nothing but hunt abos', because I'm interested.

Saying 'some people of a race/religion hate our country' is not negative. It's true, and people like you are the reason we can't speak out against it!

Dude reading your posts makes me sick because it's evident you're a moron with no clue of the cultural and historical heritage of this country.
 
K

katie_tully

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HotShot said:
Firstly, they were original inhabitant, 'speculation they came from the north' well australia the land itself was further north connecting to India. that is not speculation, it is known they came from the north - regardless they are the original inhabitants. it does in this case make aboriginals 'original austtralians', definetly those from britain were not 'the first australians' cos they were british. but ever since australia was deemed a national identity- the aborigines who had no national identity, where the first australians. i think it is important u recognise this.

And as for american values, i have lived in california, and i can say australia is becoming more and more american. just things we watch on tv, the movies, the products on sale, the food etc is moving towards america.
it is true though that australians have different perception of the world, but i feel that too is changing.
Americanisation has been happening AROUND THE WORLD since the 50s, and indeed the globalisation movement.
Why is having American influences such a bad thing? Do you merely hate America because of the Iraq war? Because they're a rich nation? Because they're American?
It amuses me that you have the audacity to speak out against America, as a nation and at its peoples, yet you're quite quick to jump on anybody who speaks out against radical Muslims?
Dear god, the double standards!
 
K

katie_tully

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Kulazzi said:
I was born here, bred here, went to Aussie schools, eat aussie food (those which are not restricted to my diet) and speak and write english fluently, therefore I'm Australian. My parents are Australian also, both speak and write english, my dad has aussie customers and, even though he's Pakistani by birth, he always say "G'day mate" whenever he greets a customer. He even uses the term "bloody".
Exactly! Your family is the perfect example of immigrants who have assimilated and adhere to Australian values. Perhaps it is because of your appreciation of the opportunities living in Australia has provided you with, opportunities you may not have had if you had been brought up in Pakistan.
I guess you also realise that adhering to Australian values does not mean giving up all ties to your heritage. I come from a family of immigrants too, and back in then they had no choice but to adhere to Australian values. When you think of alternatives, is living in Australia really that bad?

What we are speaking out against is those who move to Australia with the full intention of never assimilating. Those who know certain aspects of their culture or religion directly conflict with what the rest of us believe in, yet do nothing to change this. It is my belief that those who are not willing to adhere to Australian values should not be here in the first place. It also pisses me off that those of us who speak out against it are branded racist, as though the term racism only applies to white speaking against others. Apparently it does not work in the reverse!
 

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I think one problem is that we don't make our values explicit enough. For example anyone who knows anything about america knows that the first amendment deals with freedom of speech etc. and they value various freedoms highly. Hence if you aren't a big believer in various freedoms-like some muslims-than you can't take out citizenship in good conscience. That's one reason we should have a bill of rights and immigrants should have to pass a test demonstrating their knowledge of the bill of rights.
 

banco55

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HotShot said:
sad.. Australia wouldnt exist for Britain- why dont u call yourself pommies, after there is very little difference. or why dont u call yourselves americans?

the aborigines were there first, they were the ones looking after the land, ensuring balance. they were the 'original inhabitants' and thus when the country was claimed to be named 'australia' the land remains the same, it did not change or move -tats geographical correctness for u. the aborignies did not move from their, they have been here longer than most 'australians', and yet you fail to recognise them as the original australians.


i guess thats what the diggers did for us.. allowed americans to take over our cultural values.
Australians should be very proud of their british cultural heritage. The UK has contributed more to the world in the last 500 years than just about any other nation and it has certainly contributed more than any predominantly muslim nation. I can't seem to recall the Muslim equivalent of Darwin or Newton? and I very much doubt that the Muslims have produced anyone who can even begin to rival shakespeare. Not to mention they have a proud history of freedom for their citizens with magna carta, bill of rights etc that is only bested by the US.
 

*Minka*

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Well yeah, immigrants can assimilate into Australian culutre, but I still like to keep parts of my Serbian/Croatia heritage because I think that is a big part of what makes Australia so wonderful - the multiculturalism. I mena, my love of Rakija ain't going anywhere!

I like to think that I contribute to Australia being Multicultral by bringing a part of where I come from and mixing it with the Australian Culture.
 

loquasagacious

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My my this topis is certainly on fire - so many things to respond to, apologies this post may become rather fragmented, or if events have passed me in its posting. Though I promnise to end on a light note.

Original Australians: The use of this to describe aboriginals (itself a term flawed by its generic nature) is clearly erronous and anti-multicultural.

For a start Australia did not exist prior to the establishment of a british colony. And indeed for some time after this point. 'Australia' is in many ways an abstract concept - it is the embodiement of an abstract, the nation-state. Prior to colonisation (and for a period following) there was no nation-state, ther was no Australia.

Aboriginal tribes (apologies to any anthropologiosts reading this who like to be more semantic with the terminology) did not form any larger aboriginal nation. There was no over-arching culture, customs or even language. In terms of the nation-state Australia was Terra Nullius, yes it was certainly inhabited by Aboriginies however it was not inhabited by either a nation or a state. In this framework the land was unclaimed and empty - ripe for the taking by any nation-state.

In sum the term makes as much sence as declaring the irish (as celts) the original french because they occupied the geographical area we know as France prior to being pushed out by competing ethnic groups. The same applies to virtually every country you can name; the welsh are perhaps more 'originally english' than the anglo-celts we know as the english, etc etc.

Moving on the term Original Australian serves only to seperate rather than include people as Australians. It basically holds Aboriginals above anyone who has arrived since. Thus this term is as wrong as any racism directed toward more recent migrants by the descendents of the british settlers.

It is as morally wrong as me declaring that I am better than Katie because I am a 5th generation Australian and she is a 2nd. In many ways it is a racist term and in its usage serves to create divides not bridges.

I am not opposed to the acknowledgement of a previous aboriginal inhabitance, much like I am not opposed to Katie professing an Intalian heritage or minka a serb/croat one. Living in a functional multi-cultural society requires you to integrate however it does not require you to abandon your heritage.

Bushrangers hunt 'abos': Why? Why would a bushranger hunt an aboriginal? They were criminals interested in making a profit, what profit can be made by killing an aboriginal? Bushrangers robbed people, white people - because white people had money. In fact as an interesting aside many aboriginals were bushrangers in the sense that they were members of gangs and functioning in the capacity of helping bushrangers navigate 'the bush' to both avoid police and flee from police.

Diggers: They went to war to prove Australia, they went to war to cement Australia's relationship with Britain. Similarily to our current relationship with the US we fight in their wars in the service of our own national interest. This is why we fought in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Malaysia, IraqI, IragII, etc.

Branco said:
Australians should be very proud of their british cultural heritage. The UK has contributed more to the world in the last 500 years than just about any other nation and it has certainly contributed more than any predominantly muslim nation. I can't seem to recall the Muslim equivalent of Darwin or Newton? and I very much doubt that the Muslims have produced anyone who can even begin to rival shakespeare. Not to mention they have a proud history of freedom for their citizens with magna carta, bill of rights etc that is only bested by the US.
Now for some blind nationalism from the other side of the debate...

The muslim world was the keeper of western knowledge during Europes dark ages. The great libraries and universities of the muslim world were the primary seat of learning the world over. They made important breakthroughs and discoveries, especially in mathematics and science. Scholars from the west travelled to the muslim world to study. As Europe emerged from the dark ages and this knowledge returned to Europe it directly enabled the enlightenment. The enlightenment began as a rediscovery of roman and italian thought - this had been harboured by muslims.

The Darwins, Newtons, Galileos, Surgeons, Philosphers, etc all owe their achievements to the storing and expanding on of greek and roman thinking by muslims.

Our numbers for fucks sake are Hindu-Arabic numerals. They invented a numerical system including 0 and negative numbers, they made important breakthroughs in algebra. I advise you to get a clue before ranting about our unparalleled cultural supremecy - europeans were not always great.

I daresay that you do not speak arabic, or persian, and probably not any languages other than english. Do you think shakespeare has a prominent place on the muslim reading list? Just because in your sheltered existence you have not come across great literature from anyone non-european does not mean it does not exist.

Are you too say that there are no great arab (afterall islam is a religion not a race so the term muslim is misleading here), chinese, indian, japanese, persian, swedish or even russian authors/playrights/poets/philosophers.

Your knowledge is constrained by three things: what has been translated into english, what you choose to read (I hazard a guess - not very much) and what you are made to read.

Our educational system does not make you read the Qur'an, The Art of War, Beyond Good and Evil or the Republic this is however not a basis for declaring the middle-east, Germany or Greece a cultural wasteland.

In sum In the coming years I hope you get smarter - though I fear you may not.

Katie said:
I dress up as a leprechaun on St Pats because I love Irish people. I don't know why, but they're just awesome. If I could claim any other heritage, it would be teh Irish.
Have I mentioned I'm part Irish? ;)
 

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