• Congratulations to the Class of 2024 on your results!
    Let us know how you went here
    Got a question about your uni preferences? Ask us here

HSC 2016 MX2 Marathon (archive) (1 Viewer)

Status
Not open for further replies.

KingOfActing

lukewarm mess
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
1,016
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

Oh, the other idea I had but didn't bother to try and see if it was more viable (probably is) was to find a polynomial that very accurately approximated the square root function on some small range (Something like 1-4?) and then recursively force the input into that range.

A simple outline:

Code:
sqrt(input x)
{
    if(x < 0) throw error;
    if(x == 0) return 0;
    if(x < 1) return sqrt(4*x)/2;
    if(x > 4) return sqrt(x/4)*2;
    return minMaxPolynomial(x);
}
Where minMax was the accurate polynomial (or any other accurate, fast function) to approximate the square root of a number in the range 1 <= x <= 4.
 

Paradoxica

-insert title here-
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
2,556
Location
Outside reality
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

Oh, the other idea I had but didn't bother to try and see if it was more viable (probably is) was to find a polynomial that very accurately approximated the square root function on some small range (Something like 1-4?) and then recursively force the input into that range.

A simple outline:

Code:
sqrt(input x)
{
    if(x < 0) throw error;
    if(x == 0) return 0;
    if(x < 1) return sqrt(4*x)/2;
    if(x > 4) return sqrt(x/4)*2;
    return minMaxPolynomial(x);
}
Where minMax was the accurate polynomial (or any other accurate, fast function) to approximate the square root of a number in the range 1 <= x <= 4.
A good fact to note is that on average, the number of digits of accuracy doubles with each iteration for square roots using Newton-Raphson Method.
 

seanieg89

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
2,662
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon









After typing all that I now realise that it said n-th root not square root, but the idea would be the same, still using the Newtonian method just with the function . As for an upper bound on time units, I'm way too tired but a very weak one would be 20*time units/recursion. I also treated the numbers as having to be stored somewhere before any operations being done to them (You can't just multiply a number by itself, for example. You have to store that number in two different slots (register addresses), multiply them, then store the result somewhere in some slot.

I don't know if any of what I wrote makes any sense but I am too tired to read over it again. Yolo.
Good first idea! Newton's is indeed amazing for this purpose. However, your analysis of accuracy is a bit flawed. The n+1-th approximation being very close to the n-th approximation doesn't in itself imply that we are close to the limiting value. Picture a sequence that bunches up for a long time before having a big "jump" and converging to something else entirely.

This is not going to be the case here, but using this kind of method to "check precision" definitely requires additional justification.

You should also specify an easy way of choosing a starting value that will guarantee convergence.

(As paradoxica notes above, the degree of accuracy will roughly double with each iteration of newton's, which is why it is great. The starting value does not matter as much when you have such rapid convergence. An inequality that captures this rapid convergence is they main thing I am looking for in an answer.)
 
Last edited:

Paradoxica

-insert title here-
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
2,556
Location
Outside reality
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

Good first idea! Newton's is indeed amazing for this purpose. However, your analysis of accuracy is a bit flawed. The n+1-th approximation being very close to the n-th approximation doesn't in itself imply that we are close to the limiting value. Picture a sequence that bunches up for a long time before having a big "jump" and converging to something else entirely.

This is not going to be the case here, but using this kind of method to "check precision" definitely requires additional justification.

You should also specify an easy way of choosing a starting value that will guarantee convergence.

(As paradoxica notes above, the degree of accuracy will roughly double with each iteration of newton's, which is why it is great. The starting value does not matter as much when you have such rapid convergence. An inequality that captures this rapid convergence is they main thing I am looking for in an answer.)
Refer to Cambridge Year 12 3U for a question which captures the inequality, by forcing you to deduce that the 20th approximation of the square root of three is accurate to over 1 million decimal places, starting from the greatest integer less than the square root of 3
 
Last edited:

seanieg89

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
2,662
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

Refer to Cambridge Year 12 3U for a question which captures the inequality, by forcing you to deduce that the 20th approximation of the square root of three is accurate to over 1 million decimal places, starting from the greatest integer less than the square root of 3
Am well aware of how to estimate the error in Newton's myself lol, am posing this as a question to HS students.

Don't have a copy of that book on me so I cannot speak for how rigorous the method in that question is. Even if it does things properly though, I highly recommend students try this problem without being walked through it by a textbook question.
 

KingOfActing

lukewarm mess
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
1,016
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

For anyone interested, this is the sort of minimax polynomial I was talking about. I made this one through Remez' algorithm for the range 1 < x < 4.
This can be easily extended to any degree, and makes deriving the error term quite simple.

For those who don't know, Remez' algorithm is this:

 

InteGrand

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
Messages
6,109
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

Should there be i's in the exponents (i.e. complex exponentials)? Otherwise there's not much point thinking of them as vectors, is there? (Haven't thought much about the Q.)
 

InteGrand

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2014
Messages
6,109
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

Well technically speaking, it's not just the fact that the product is a real number that is significant, but rather that this product is equal to the modulus-squared (of the ω), but correct method, well done :).
 

DatAtarLyfe

Booty Connoisseur
Joined
Mar 10, 2015
Messages
1,805
Gender
Female
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

Well technically speaking, it's not just the fact that the product is a real number that is significant, but rather that this product is equal to the modulus-squared (of the ω), but correct method, well done :).
that was a deceivingly simple question, completely overlooked the basic concept
 

KingOfActing

lukewarm mess
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
1,016
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

I'm not quite sure where to get from where I was at but this is what I did:

Looking at the result on wolframalpha, I am fairly certain it just , but I'm not sure how to simplify the expression I've got. I tried to rationalise the denominator but that just made the numerator really messy and didn't seem to lead anywhere.
 

hedgehog_7

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2015
Messages
50
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

The ellipse e has equation x^2/100 + y^2/75 = 1

Find the equation of the circle that is tangential to the ellipse at P (5,7.5) and Q (5,7.5)
 

Drsoccerball

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
3,650
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2015
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

The ellipse e has equation x^2/100 + y^2/75 = 1

Find the equation of the circle that is tangential to the ellipse at P (5,7.5) and Q (5,7.5)
Firstly you should not use 'e' as a way of describing an Ellipse it can be confused with the eccentricity.
Also P and Q are the same point ?
 

hedgehog_7

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2015
Messages
50
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

The ellipse a has equation x^2/100 + y^2/75 = 1

Find the equation of the circle that is tangential to the ellipse at P (5,-7.5) and Q (5,7.5)
 
Last edited:

Paradoxica

-insert title here-
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
2,556
Location
Outside reality
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

Looking at the result on wolframalpha, I am fairly certain it just , but I'm not sure how to simplify the expression I've got. I tried to rationalise the denominator but that just made the numerator really messy and didn't seem to lead anywhere.
What did I say? Consider the VECTORS
 

KingOfActing

lukewarm mess
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
1,016
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2016
Re: HSC 2016 4U Marathon

The ellipse a has equation x^2/100 + y^2/75 = 1

Find the equation of the circle that is tangential to the ellipse at P (5,-7.5) and Q (5,7.5)
Let the equation of the circle be (x-a)^2 + (y-b)^2 = r^2

Differentiating the circle equation implicitly gives dy/dx = (a-x)/(y-b)
Differentiating the ellipse equation implicitly gives dy/dx = -3x/4y

These derivative must be equal at the points given, giving two equations:
2a-b = 2.5
2a + b = 2.5
Hence a = 5/4, b = 0


Substituting into the equation of the circle along with one of the points it passes through allows us to solve for the radius:
(5-5/4)^2 + (7.5)^2 = r^2
1125/16= r^2

Hence the equation of the circle is (x-5/4)^2+ y^2 = 1125/16

Sorry for lack of LaTeX, I'm on my phone and I got lazy
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top